Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

[Elainera]

Richard Middleton is a private investigator who was hired by the defence.

View attachment 216363

Link?

 

[Mariposa]

You might want to check the Joe McCann trial happening simultaneously in the UK. He's a serial rapist and the accusations and insinuations by the defence his victims have to listen and answer to while on the stand are just awful! One woman was crying even.

I read a bit about this case after I saw it mentioned on here (I’m in the US) and it was so horrible I can’t even read more about it.

For this case at hand, after the way the defense attorneys bullied and berated the woman who came forth to give evidence about her date with defendant where he restricted her breathing — I have no time for these particular defense attorneys. They can eff off with their sniveling unnamed client.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I took this to mean he found it sad that nice young men would be viewing her profile, and wishing to meet her. By which time she had already died, and no-one knew. Quite poignant to think that she could have met any number of nice men who would have found her attractive

I understand. Imo, Grace was the unlucky one, he would've killed someone, it just happened to be her. 'If only' is our catchcry.

 

[Mariposa]

I think this guy who just gave evidence is different from the 38 year old? Don’t think the highlighted bit is too helpful to defense

Grace Millane murder trial: Man details date with backpacker before she died
Evidence from a man who matched with Grace on the BDSM dating app Whiplr, has his statement read to the jury.
The man, who has name suppression, spoke to Grace through the app but the pair never met up.
They discussed their preferences, among other things.
Grace appeared "exploration" about BDSM practices, the statement said.

"I felt like Grace was more naive and trusting in the BDSM area. The users could be any undesirable person online, and Grace had a naivety.”
After he saw Grace was missing on BBC news, he logged into Whiplr to see when Grace had last signed in.
The app stated it was last accessed at 3.43am [London time], on December 1, 2018.

"When I saw this time and date," I contacted the police.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I read a bit abut this case after I saw it mentioned on here (I’m in the US) and it was so horrible I can’t even read more about it.

For this case at hand, after the way the defense attorneys bullied and berated the woman who came forth to give evidence about her date with defendant where he restricted her breathing — I have no time for these particular defense attorneys. They can eff off with their sniveling unnamed client.

I feel the same, there are good defence lawyers, and the defendant deserves a fair trial but these particular ones, can be quite alarming in the lengths they will stoop to. I'm sure they wouldn't want their daughter in the same room with this man, let alone date him but somehow they can heap dirt onto the victim without batting an eye. It takes a certain type of person to do this job.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thank you @jamjim and @LucyRocket for the trial updates and everyone else commenting, makes for an interesting discussion.

I'm learning a lot during this trial as with every one I've followed. One of my daughters uses Tinder and Bumble too.

 

[All & Forward]

Why? Everyone has their preferences and shouldn't be ashamed of it.

As in, they probably just thought she was cute and had no idea she'd been killed.

It seems like everyone is getting very uppity about wanting to be seen as more progressive and liberal than the next person. The brandishing around of a certain buzz phrase is really showing that.

The defense is not trying to slur her or make her out to be anything. Ultimately, she died during or soon after sex. The sex was instigated by a dating app. The defense is also trying to delineate between sexual 'breath play' and strangulation.

It is pretty relevant to bring in any evidence of Millane's sexual history.

I actually had a look at Whiplr last night and it is pretty barren. I had a quick look and even with every filter open, there seemed to be about two dozen active accounts in Australia. I'd never even heard of it and I'm a young man with normal friends who talk pretty openly about sex. It is very niche.

The other thing is that you literally tick off boxes of what you're into and that's displayed on your profile. There's lots of interests there. It would have been very relevant to bring the Whiplr/WhatsApp guy onto the stand if they actually bothered to ask 'what was on her profile? What interests were listed?' If they were exclusively related to breath play and restriction, it would again be of interest. But they didn't. That's their fault as a defense – not them being grubs.

People on here are throwing around terms like 'he just seems that way.' I obviously think the evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* that morning, going on a date with another woman, rifling through her handbag is crook. And the reasonable assumption that his life had a heavy emphasis on Tinder doesn't make him look that full as a person. He also showed little remorse and his first reaction was to get away with it. Yeah I agree, the guy has issues.

But that's not how law works.

This comes down to the immediate event.

People on here just acting off instinct and emotion and saying he just seems weird just is not how the legal system works. Our current legal system has traits shared with the Ancient Egyptians. C'mon.

 

[SophieW1989]

Thank you @jamjim and @LucyRocket for the trial updates and everyone else commenting, makes for an interesting discussion.

I'm learning a lot during this trial as with every one I've followed. One of my daughters uses Tinder and Bumble too.

Honestly, there but for the grace if god go all of us. When I think of all the potentially risky positions I’ve put myself in as a young woman.. it doesn’t bare thinking about.

 

[Fidobell]

Honestly, there but for the grace if god go all of us. When I think of all the potentially risky positions I’ve put myself in as a young woman.. it doesn’t bare thinking about.

But for the grace of God . a phrase my granny used often . So true .
I'm off to bed now will catch up on all tommorow . Thinking of Grace's family tonight
Thanks for updates much appreciated

 

[Kikixxxx]

As in, they probably just thought she was cute and had no idea she'd been killed.

It seems like everyone is getting very uppity about wanting to be seen as more progressive and liberal than the next person. The brandishing around of a certain buzz phrase is really showing that.

The defense is not trying to slur her or make her out to be anything. Ultimately, she died during or soon after sex. The sex was instigated by a dating app. The defense is also trying to delineate between sexual 'breath play' and strangulation.

It is pretty relevant to bring in any evidence of Millane's sexual history.

I actually had a look at Whiplr last night and it is pretty barren. I had a quick look and even with every filter open, there seemed to be about two dozen active accounts in Australia. I'd never even heard of it and I'm a young man with normal friends who talk pretty openly about sex. It is very niche.

The other thing is that you literally tick off boxes of what you're into and that's displayed on your profile. There's lots of interests there. It would have been very relevant to bring the Whiplr/WhatsApp guy onto the stand if they actually bothered to ask 'what was on her profile? What interests were listed?' If they were exclusively related to breath play and restriction, it would again be of interest. But they didn't. That's their fault as a defense – not them being grubs.

People on here are throwing around terms like 'he just seems that way.' I obviously think the evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* that morning, going on a date with another woman, rifling through her handbag is crook. And the reasonable assumption that his life had a heavy emphasis on Tinder doesn't make him look that full as a person. He also showed little remorse and his first reaction was to get away with it. Yeah I agree, the guy has issues.

But that's not how law works.

This comes down to the immediate event.

People on here just acting off instinct and emotion and saying he just seems weird just is not how the legal system works. Our current legal system has traits shared with the Ancient Egyptians. C'mon.

I know what your saying but someone made an excellent point a few pages back, if someone was into playing with guns as a sexual fetish for example, and it went off, does that mean its solely her own fault and the other party isn't culpable because she 'was into it'... no, he has to take some responsibility, he has to know when hes going too far and its becoming dangerous, and if he has went too far that's on him, not her. The judge clarified what could be classed as murder and i quote;
'Justice Simon Moore addressed the jury on the definition of murder, which he said he would set out further in his closing address.

He said they could reach a conclusion of murder if they were satisfied there was intent to cause death, or if the person causing injury was reckless in their actions.

Grace Millane murder trial: Accused didn't intend to kill backpacker, defence says

personally, i'd say hes been reckless, and again that's on him. I understand the defence have to use this stuff but i find it insulting as they're basically saying ' but she likes it, she asked for it, she does it all the time... its not his fault' and thats wrong imo. i also struggle to see how it was at all relevant to call the guy she slept with the night before as a witness, he contributed nothing to back up the accused and his version of events. It seemed like they were solely using him to show the court that grace slept with this guy the night before.

 

[All & Forward]

Honestly, there but for the grace if god go all of us. When I think of all the potentially risky positions I’ve put myself in as a young woman.. it doesn’t bare thinking about.

Grace of God? More like indiscriminate luck.

 

[SophieW1989]

The defense is not trying to slur her or make her out to be anything. Ultimately, she died during or soon after sex. The sex was instigated by a dating app. The defense is also trying to delineate between sexual 'breath play' and strangulation.

It is pretty relevant to bring in any evidence of Millane's sexual history.

I think the issue is that there will be people who victim blame, and there always are, wether it be a rape cause or a murder case. Some people would rather believe a woman was ‘asking for it’ than to accept that some people are just out and out wronguns! The information about her sexual history is totally relevant in this case, but it doesn’t excuse what happened to her. It’s also bloody grim for those who know and love her to have to sit through.

 

[All & Forward]

I know what your saying but someone made an excellent point a few pages back, if someone was into playing with guns as a sexual fetish for example, and it went off by mistake, does that mean its solely her fault and the other party isn't culpable because she 'was into it'... no, he has to take some responsibility, he has to know when hes going too far and its becoming dangerous, and if he has went too far that's on him, not her. The judge clarified what could be classed as murder and i quote;
'Justice Simon Moore addressed the jury on the definition of murder, which he said he would set out further in his closing address.

He said they could reach a conclusion of murder if they were satisfied there was intent to cause death, or if the person causing injury was reckless in their actions.

Grace Millane murder trial: Accused didn't intend to kill backpacker, defence says

personally, i'd say hes been reckless, and again that's on him. I understand the defence have to use this stuff but i find it insulting as they're basically saying ' but she likes it, she asked for it, she does it all the time... its not his fault' and thats wrong imo. i also struggle to see how it was at all relevant to call the guy she slept with the night before as a witness, he contributed nothing to back up the accused and his version of events. It seemed like they were solely using him to show the court that grace slept with this guy the night before.

The defense isn't trying to say it's her fault. The defense's job is to represent their client and get the best possible outcome. Ultimately, manslaughter is a better outcome for the accused than murder.

The differentiation between manslaughter and murder can be staked by all the information that's been brought up by witnesses.

In pretty simple terms, if she had previously wanted partners to put their hands around her neck and it's happened again, that's a lot more in line with manslaughter (more 'accidental') than him doing it with intent and/or premeditation (murder).

 

[SophieW1989]

Grace of God? More like indiscriminate luck.

It’s a saying.

 

[All & Forward]

I think the issue is that there will be people who victim blame, and there always are, wether it be a rape cause or a murder case. Some people would rather believe a woman was ‘asking for it’ than to accept that some people are just out and out wronguns! The information about her sexual history is totally relevant in this case, but it doesn’t excuse what happened to her. It’s also bloody grim for those who know and love her to have to sit through.

This is a crime forum so surely people expect these details and understand how cases unravel though?

Just feels like there's a certain tilt on here which is very emotive. This has nothing to do with rape culture or whatever other buzz terminology people want to trot out. No one is blaming her for anything. She got in a silly position and of course the blame is on the accused if he is indeed guilty, but I don't get why people think it's so grubby her sexual history is being brought up.

It was a sexual crime.

Going back to the gun hypothetical: if you've never had an empty clip pointed at your head (this is very Janice Soprano and Richie Aprille) but you're shot in the head and someone's defense is 'we always did it sexually! It was an accident' then the route of murder is a likely and possible one and worth pursuit.

However if it can be established that yes, you indeed have regular sex with a gun pointed to your head – and had done it with previous partners – and again borrowing from The Sopranos, and you 'usually take the clip out,' then manslaughter is the route.

 

[Mariposa]

As in, they probably just thought she was cute and had no idea she'd been killed.

It seems like everyone is getting very uppity about wanting to be seen as more progressive and liberal than the next person. The brandishing around of a certain buzz phrase is really showing that.

The defense is not trying to slur her or make her out to be anything. Ultimately, she died during or soon after sex. The sex was instigated by a dating app. The defense is also trying to delineate between sexual 'breath play' and strangulation.

It is pretty relevant to bring in any evidence of Millane's sexual history.

I actually had a look at Whiplr last night and it is pretty barren. I had a quick look and even with every filter open, there seemed to be about two dozen active accounts in Australia. I'd never even heard of it and I'm a young man with normal friends who talk pretty openly about sex. It is very niche.

The other thing is that you literally tick off boxes of what you're into and that's displayed on your profile. There's lots of interests there. It would have been very relevant to bring the Whiplr/WhatsApp guy onto the stand if they actually bothered to ask 'what was on her profile? What interests were listed?' If they were exclusively related to breath play and restriction, it would again be of interest. But they didn't. That's their fault as a defense – not them being grubs.

People on here are throwing around terms like 'he just seems that way.' I obviously think the evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* that morning, going on a date with another woman, rifling through her handbag is crook. And the reasonable assumption that his life had a heavy emphasis on Tinder doesn't make him look that full as a person. He also showed little remorse and his first reaction was to get away with it. Yeah I agree, the guy has issues.

But that's not how law works.

This comes down to the immediate event.

People on here just acting off instinct and emotion and saying he just seems weird just is not how the legal system works. Our current legal system has traits shared with the Ancient Egyptians. C'mon.

I’m a lawyer licensed to practice law in the United States, so yeah I do get how legal systems work. Thanks though!

 

[All & Forward]

It’s a saying.

It's a bit uncouth considering her name was Grace...

Far too often these stories are overshadowed by people saying 'it could have been me.' It's self-indulgent.

 

[Kikixxxx]

The defense isn't trying to say it's her fault. The defense's job is to represent their client and get the best possible outcome. Ultimately, manslaughter is a better outcome for the accused than murder.

The differentiation between manslaughter and murder can be staked by all the information that's been brought up by witnesses.

In pretty simple terms, if she had previously wanted partners to put their hands around her neck and it's happened again, that's a lot more in line with manslaughter (more 'accidental') than him doing it with intent and/or premeditation (murder).

I get you but if you 'accidentally' kill someone, do you really then go on pornhub after and take pictures of the corpse?.. do you really not notice a dead body lying there after your shower? the rooms not that big. and again do you go on tinder and arrange another date while a dead body is still lying in your hotel room, half hanging out a suitcase. His actions don't look like someone that accidentally murdered someone to me... I also struggle to see how there was so much blood from just a nose bleed? the cast off drops on the fridge too, it just doesn't add up. The cast off drops means the blood would still have had to be wet when he lifted her (or however else that blood got there) and that goes against what he says about finding her dead the next day.. the blood would have been dry by then?

 

[All & Forward]

I’m a lawyer licensed to practice law in the United States, so yeah I do get how legal systems work. Thanks though!

Not condescending you whatsoever – more so posters who seem to be firing from the hips and bringing up his creepiness. It's irrelevant. The immediate issue is the case and finding him gross and using that as a base to add evidence to isn't how law should or does work.

I understand I'm coming across as a bit of a prick in the last few posts and I don't really mean to.

It's actually really good having this thread because it's one of those rare cases that's hit me emotionally and has really piqued the pygmy law I know. I don't think there's any other forum online that's discussing it (would love a link if there is though) so I appreciate all input, opinions, and slants. We are all interested and got here because we felt something for Grace Millane.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

As in, they probably just thought she was cute and had no idea she'd been killed.

It seems like everyone is getting very uppity about wanting to be seen as more progressive and liberal than the next person. The brandishing around of a certain buzz phrase is really showing that.

The defense is not trying to slur her or make her out to be anything. Ultimately, she died during or soon after sex. The sex was instigated by a dating app. The defense is also trying to delineate between sexual 'breath play' and strangulation.

It is pretty relevant to bring in any evidence of Millane's sexual history.

I actually had a look at Whiplr last night and it is pretty barren. I had a quick look and even with every filter open, there seemed to be about two dozen active accounts in Australia. I'd never even heard of it and I'm a young man with normal friends who talk pretty openly about sex. It is very niche.

The other thing is that you literally tick off boxes of what you're into and that's displayed on your profile. There's lots of interests there. It would have been very relevant to bring the Whiplr/WhatsApp guy onto the stand if they actually bothered to ask 'what was on her profile? What interests were listed?' If they were exclusively related to breath play and restriction, it would again be of interest. But they didn't. That's their fault as a defense – not them being grubs.

People on here are throwing around terms like 'he just seems that way.' I obviously think the evidence of him watching *advertiser censored* that morning, going on a date with another woman, rifling through her handbag is crook. And the reasonable assumption that his life had a heavy emphasis on Tinder doesn't make him look that full as a person. He also showed little remorse and his first reaction was to get away with it. Yeah I agree, the guy has issues.

But that's not how law works.

This comes down to the immediate event.

People on here just acting off instinct and emotion and saying he just seems weird just is not how the legal system works. Our current legal system has traits shared with the Ancient Egyptians. C'mon.

I think everyone's pretty tame compared to other social media platforms, no hysteria, just common sense, it's natural to discuss the prosecution and defence's tactics, can't one show distaste for something that is unsavoury?
Most of the trials I've followed were in South Africa (4)....now, they were eye openers for me personally! This is a great site to learn about the justice system, not only in one's own country but else where.

I beg to differ with your opinion about the defence's strategies, they are definitely trying to blacken Grace's name, to win points is part of the game. I was a witness for the prosecution in a trial 14 yrs ago, it wasn't a murder trial but the defence were brutal with their questioning, and a child was the victim. The evidence has to be tested but gee, anyone who says it's a cake walk or we can't criticise the system because it just 'is', doesn't understand the impact on the victim/family, friends, the costs are huge!

I'm glad you're showing an interest in this trial and other young members too, could be life saving, no dramatics, just that knowledge is power.