Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[thunderwombat]

Have replayed the Luxembourg video. Fernand answers their question at the door, and in the driveway later. At the door, Sarah translates "he says he's never been", to Australia, in answer to " ..... and I'm just wondering if you can tell me how long you were in Australia?" On second viewing of it, I must say if two people rocked up at my door and put their hands out for me to shake saying their name I would probably straight away think they were Jehovah's Witnesses, selling something or up to mischief. Just my thoughts though.

Jehovah's witness, an electricity or gas company representative who want to give you a better deal or someone with a pile of leaflets who wants to come into your house to change your light bulbs. All doing their jobs but with the greatest respect, please sod off. And if it was 7am I wouldn't be saying please.

Earlier this year a woman came to our door asking about an old acquaintance who had lived in our street years ago that she wanted to make contact with. She only remembered that his first name was Peter, his surname was Greek and she thought he lived at no 7. My husband has lived here all his life and pretty much knows the history of every house but couldn't help her. My husband is very friendly and loves to chat with strangers, I'm not so nice and have only lived here not too long but I love doing research and am always looking for a new challenge. So I get on the PC and look up old electoral rolls, local history, public records, while my husband lists every person he has ever known in the street, families he remembers living at no 7, and he just can't recall any Peter with a Greek last name. Sorry Ma'am, we can't help I really wish we could. She just does not give up and she keeps saying Peter, number 7, it's spelled P.E. T. E. R. HE LIVED AT NUMBER SEVEN, you don't know him? Do you know where is his now? Are you SURE you don't know? Really? You don't know an-y-thing at all? All with much frustrated sighing and eye contact that honestly made me a little freaked out. It took about 45 minutes to get her to leave (only because my mother-in-law called out that it was time for us to drive her to bingo) and she turned up AGAIN the next day, no way was I about to go through all that again so I didn't answer the door. At least she didn't have a film crew catching me in ratty old pyjamas.

My point, and I do have one, is that sometimes there just isn't an answer to a question. You can ask as often and as publicly as you want, but if someone doesn't know something, they can't tell you what they don't know. I'm sure there isn't a conspiracy between Lesley Loveday and Susie Cooper to hide the whereabouts of Marion. I certainly don't think their behaviour is suspicious, or cagey, or defensive as is sometimes suggested.

I had always assumed the the personal ad placed by an F. Remakel mentioned Luxembourg and that was the link to Fernand R. I just had a look at the original and it doesn't even mention Lux. at all. The F could be for Frederic or Fritz or Fifi for all we know and belong to some one living in Oshkosh, Wisconsin who may even be deceased by now. Maybe he wanted a pen pal that may lead to more serious things (this was how my in-laws met) and never set foot in Australia. So the only reason the podcast seems to have chosen this Fernand Remakel is because of the initial F? This is real Columbo stuff. I've got no skin in this game and have no idea if Fernand Remakel is involved in Marion's disappearance - he may have kidnapped the Lindberg baby and poisoned Phar Lap as far as I know - but the podcasters need to do do a lot more research before they contact this man and his family again.

 

[thunderwombat]

Societal values/attitudes/beliefs in Luxembourg are different to Australia.

To be fair to Ferdinand he (like everyone else) is ethnocentric, he thinks the way things are done in his society are normal (and anything outside of this isnt). This is why he makes the comments about Australians being unintelligent - from his perspective Alison is either rude or clueless.
Alison is ethnocentric too. However, she is supposed to be a professional and she wants something from Ferdinand, so she should be approaching him in a culturally sensitive way to give herself the best possible chance of success.

Here are a few basic guidelines for business communication with the Luxembourgish found here. Business communication

• Luxembourgers prefer subtlety to directness.
• Luxembourgers do not put possessions or emotions on display.
• Communication should be logical and based on reason.
• Do not ask personal questions or intrude on privacy. Personal matters are rarely discussed with friends no matter how close.
• Luxemburgers are formal and reserved when dealing with outsiders. They are careful and prurient before trusting when developing relationships and this cannot be rushed. If you are impatient they will not do business with you.

It's easy to see from this how highly inappropriate and offensive the approach toward Ferdinand and his wife has been.

The first thing Alison Sandy said when Mme R answered was "can I speak to Fernand". At that point I groaned and thought, this will not go well. Calling at 7 am, which is almost one hour before sunrise, speaking in a foreign language, using a first name as though you are a friend or family member. This is such bad form. All of this could have been avoided by the use of simple good manners and the use of a local intermediary (they did claim to be liaising with with a local journalist but nothing seems to have come from that). But they know their audience, and the audience wants outrage and drama.

 

[alleycat13]

I'm really off the whole Fernand Remakel theory, I do think the podcast is using it as a bit of social outrage to keep everyone commenting on the case. I don't think there's any need for it, we are all certainly interested in the case one way or another, with or without F Remakel.

Yes, P Remakel president of the teacher's union and Michele Remakel director of a well respected high school in Lux. It may even be a tradition in the Remakel family to go into teaching.

I like this theory though! When I started Googling Patrick Remakel, there are quite a few articles and photos of him. I wonder if anyone thinks he may look around Sally's age?
Hear me out - I do wonder if the Remakels in Luxembourg have a history of being involved in education. If so, I wonder if Patrick's father was also involved in education/teaching? If Patrick looks about Sally's age, his father could be about Marion's age. Perhaps she did read about Mr Remakel and that's where the idea for her name came about.

I'd really like to know more about the passports. I feel the info that has been given is rather confusing - where did the 'Marion Barter' passport leave/arrive and where did the 'Florabella Ramakel' leave/arrive? Very confusing. I just hope that the podcast/Sally will be able to give us more info if she gets the redacted files.

 

[KiwiNZ]

On the advert, I wonder if the newspaper was on subscription only, if so I wonder if they have a record of a subscriber in the name of Remakel or for that PO box. You would think that the person whom advertised may have also scubscribed to the paper.

I think the fact the police say no Remakel entered Aus after 1990 ( if correct) rules out Fernand as the person of interest, I can’t imagine he went to the trouble of getting a P.O. box in a country he is not residing in.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

They have lost creditability IMO not confirming in the Podcast or on their facebook page ( until asked directly), that the letter had NOT been accepted by him, and he was correct that he did not have the letter nor had read the letter. Instead they let their followers make comments that continue to vilify him in saying that he claims he cant speak English but also did not answer the questions in the letter that was in Luxembourgish … he didn't respond because he does not have the letter as he did not accept it, which is his right to do so !

They need to say they made a mistake in regards to having proof he accepted the letter, and their basic checks where not done before accusing him.

Not interested in following something that they are turning into a circus and leaving out facts just to get a rise out of people. Unfair on Sally as well, she deserves more than that.

I agree KiwiNZ, that's quite shocking, isn't it, and quite mean really, they had plenty of time to remove that untruth from the podcast or add an update to inform the listeners. Not nice at all. Thanks for letting me know this, had no idea .... Fernand was telling the truth, there it is.

 

[Jo3]

Presuming Marion did return Aug 2nd, she could have got her mail redirected back to her. Would Post Office have record? Also when Sally changed ownership of the car Marion may have been informed by post.


The weight of Marions luggage on her return trip could show her plans. Would the Airline have that info?

Marion may have written to Sally and sent parcel to her son. She could have given them to someone to post who didn’t send them!

Sallys grandfather was advised to get private detective and start in Byron Bay (think by police?). Bit late now but wondered if channel7 budget stretched to getting private detective in Luxemburg to follow up Remakel links and finally settle the Fernand fiasco which has caused distress and now splitting the fans.

Lastly though I still suspect cult involvement, I can’t tie in the name change and Luxemburg connection. Anyone with Ex cult member friends who may know of link, or if fake IDs were being used? Any other theories?

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Presuming Marion did return Aug 2nd, she could have got her mail redirected back to her. Would Post Office have record? Also when Sally changed ownership of the car Marion may have been informed by post.

Aussie post would have had records but not sure how long they retain them for. With mail redirection theres a form you fill in and you can select 3, 6, 9 or 12 month duration. They send a reminder a month out from the expiriation and you can extend it. If you want to change or cancel it before it expires theres another form you fill out.
Marion knew the car had been sold when the red cross caught up with her. Could be a sign she had recieved the transfer of ownership??
It would be good to know when Lesley stopped receiving Marion's mail. It would help to suggest if Marion adjusted the redirection or maybe had a separate po box

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

[QUOTE="Jo3, post: 15592562, member: 254237"Sallys grandfather was advised to get private detective and start in Byron Bay (think by police?). Bit late now but wondered if channel7 budget stretched to getting private detective in Luxemburg to follow up Remakel links and finally settle the Fernand fiasco which has caused distress and now splitting the fans. [/QUOTE]

Initially the podcast had a private investigator (Bill Edgar AKA the lost boy of TSS) who volunteered his services. I read that he sourced most of the information for the first few episodes. Sadly there seems to have been some sort of falling out which is a shame because a PI would be pretty helpful for some of this stuff.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

This was posted to Facebook earlier today:

"Conversations 16 out tomorrow: The TLV team discusses the discovery of another person who may be able to help with the investigation into Marion’s disappearance – the pilot! We also foreshadow an imminent breakthrough and recap the latest episode following the interesting online debate that resulted. And please don't forget to sign and share our petition to get a cash reward for information into Marion's disappearance - also on this page."

Two episodes a few days apart! The breakthrough they mention must be very imminent. I wonder what it is.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Oh wow so they've found the pilot.

They also mentioned speaking to the dentist the week before, but didn't mention anything more about it in the last just released episode.

Was the "interesting online debate" on their Facebook page or somewhere else.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Oh wow so they've found the pilot.

They also mentioned speaking to the dentist the week before, but didn't mention anything more about it in the last just released episode.

Was the "interesting online debate" on their Facebook page or somewhere else.

Nothing on the Facebook pages (TLV or missing person marion barter). Unless they've been deleted?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

From memory I believe the date range the police used in their search started at 1990. I dont think there is an actual record of someone called Remakel entering Australia in 1990, it's just that police havent searched any further back than 1990 if that makes sense?

I see. That makes much more sense. I was wondering why nobody was mentioning the possibility of a Remakel moving to the area in 1990. But if that is when the records where searched from there could be a possibility there was still an entry previous to that date OR a false name. OR someone Australian born with a French descent? I think this is more unlikely though. But electoral rolls could still maybe prove useful? Australian phone books from that time perhaps, if they are accessible?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Today I'm wondering why Luke Glover's secretary hasn't been spoken to yet .... maybe can't be found, or doesn't want to speak about anything re The Southport School, not sure, but if I had a top 10 list of people from the school to speak to, the Secretary would be in number one position, given that Luke Glover is no longer around. Will listen to the new conversations episode soon, looking forward to updates.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Suzie Cooper came to Australia to attend the Round Square Conference. I didnt know what this was. TSS have some information about round square on their website. Its an international network of 200 schools in 50 countries, they look at global citizenship in education, organize teacher and student exchanges among other things - an interesting read.

Anyway each year theres a conference hosted by one of the member schools and reps from the other member schools attend to discuss global educational concerns. TSS hosted the 5 day conference in 95 - attended by Suzie and Marion.

I checked the member list and there are no Luxembourg schools (disappointing!) but there are 17 Australian schools including TSS and Armidale School which I thought was interesting because Armidale keeps popping up.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Conversations 16 is out. It appears we got another episode so quickly because the NCAT decision is imminent.

The Balina bone isnt Marion. I was sad to hear how disappointed they were about this. Poor Sally - I wonder if she holds any hope her Mum is alive?

Two things really disappointed me about his episode. Firstly Alison going to lengths to defend her interview approach and her attitude towards the people she is impacting. Susie's husband is apparently the rude one for hanging up. Susie knew Marion a total of 5 days and this was 2 years before Marion left, theres nothing more to be learned from her. It's exactly this kind of arrogance/aggression that turns people off.
The other disappointing thing was Sally firmly asserting that her mothers privacy doesnt count. Im sorry Sally but yes it does! The discussion over the pilot is an excellent example - it was awful! Why do we need to drill down on the specifics of the pilots rejection of Marion? Surely the line of enquiry should be whether he had any contact with her outside of the standard parent/teacher?

The dispute over the TSS classroom furniture could be the 'petty' issues issues the exboyfriend Greg mentioned. I know several Kindy teachers and they all spend significant amounts of their own money and contribute their own possessions to their classrooms which they dont get back. It's not that the school doesnt have money it's that they dont always spend it the way the teachers want. Sounds like Marion didnt follow protocol (didnt advise the school when she purchased the furniture, didnt make clear that it was a loan not a contribution, didnt keep reciepts etc). It does seem to confirm that the communication between Marion and her superiors wasnt good and that fiesty Marion had a flair for the dramatic.
Curious the TSS teacher described Marion's resignation as 'frantic'. Marion had been talking about going away for at least 3/4 months. Was the communication between Marion and TSS administration so poor she wanted to spring it on them, or perhaps Marion intended to leave after term break but the spat she was having made her bring it forward??

Do we know if Marion's departure date (23rd) was known by the family/Lesley in advance or did they only find out a week before like the school??

 

[thunderwombat]

Conversations 16 is out. It appears we got another episode so quickly because the NCAT decision is imminent.

The Balina bone isnt Marion. I was sad to hear how disappointed they were about this. Poor Sally - I wonder if she holds any hope her Mum is alive?

Two things really disappointed me about his episode. Firstly Alison going to lengths to defend her interview approach and her attitude towards the people she is impacting. Susie's husband is apparently the rude one for hanging up. Susie knew Marion a total of 5 days and this was 2 years before Marion left, theres nothing more to be learned from her. It's exactly this kind of arrogance/aggression that turns people off.
The other disappointing thing was Sally firmly asserting that her mothers privacy doesnt count. Im sorry Sally but yes it does! The discussion over the pilot is an excellent example - it was awful! Why do we need to drill down on the specifics of the pilots rejection of Marion?

Like you, the reaction to the bone not being Marion's saddened and confused me. I get that they want this ordeal to end but...isn't not finding your beloved mother's dumped body sort of a good thing?

If poor Marion is alive and may have thought about reuniting with her family, this podcast has ruined that chance. I'm sure it wasn't Sally's intention when she agreed it that so much of her mother's private life would be exposed to the public who now get to judge her. We don't need to know the details of her failed crush on a younger man. This would have been so humiliating at the time and is no more than pointless filler. But then 90% of this podcast is filler.

 

[alleycat13]

TSS hosted the 5 day conference in 95 - attended by Suzie and Marion.

I checked the member list and there are no Luxembourg schools (disappointing!) but there are 17 Australian schools including TSS and Armidale School which I thought was interesting because Armidale keeps popping up.

Armidale!!! I’m so stuck on this, I think this is one of the biggest clues imo.

This furthers my theory that Marion could very well have met some teaching contacts in Armidale in the years before she left. Perhaps she got to know someone particularly well, well enough to call on in a time of need and she stayed with them when she came back to Australia.

I feel like any outcome to this whole case would be unfavourable but for the moment I am leaning towards the fact that Marion may have disappeared on her own accord.

I’ve also come back to my other theory that she may have been sick, even knew she may be dying and she didn’t want to burden her family with it. Maybe she went on a trip to the UK, decided she wanted to be in Australia when it happened and went somewhere she didn’t think she’d be recognised?

I just think, leaving Luxembourg aside, Armidale is the next best clue!

 

[thunderwombat]

Can someone who has listened to the latest episode explain the bit at the end where they discuss F. R. using his own initials to sound out the spelling of Leydon? I didn't understand the significance at all but they all agreed it was it was important and unusual. Sorry if I'm a bit dim.

 

[poppypopcorn]

Have listened to conversations 16 and I am still annoyed about the Susie thing. I know the UK concept of distance within the country is different to that in Australia. But come on. Marion was not "just there" in relation to Susie. She could not have chosen a location for her holiday FURTHER from where Susie lived and still been in England. It's 350 miles, a 6 hour drive, far north west of England to far south east. Also, the Lake District where Susie lives is a popular holiday place, lots of foreign visitors, unlike where Marion was. Had Marion had any plans whatsoever to see Susie, she would have gone elsewhere. It is fairly clear to me that Marion had no intention to meet up with Susie - and Susie has confirmed that. Leave the woman alone. For all we know she's ill or something.

Also this "Oh Marion had plans to stay and work in the UK" - you can't just do that, legally at least. Yes there are lots of schemes for young Australians under the age of 30 to get a working holiday visa. But Marion was 50. And on a tourist visa. She had no right to work in the UK (Sally confirmed she had no right to apply for a passport from the UK or anywhere else) and would have had to get paperwork done to prove her teaching qualifications were transferrable. And a working Visa, or leave to remain, or get married to a UK/European Union citizen to change her status that way - the podcast are presenting the working in the UK as a solid plan when it was a non-starter and obviously just a wee story she made up to cover her real plans.

Anyway. I still believe that the choice of Sussex for this extended holiday holds the key as it's so odd. Drawing an Australian comparison, it would be like me booking an extended holiday to somewhere 50 miles outside Sydney and spending my time mooching around rural towns and village coffee shops, totally ignoring the usual tourist places of Sydney itself, the beaches, the Blue Mountains.... you just don't do that without a real reason to be in that region.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I found it of interest that Marion was described as "frantic" at the time of her resignation, in that four day block from June 16-20. That's interesting isn't it. This frantic state comes after all the groundwork has been laid - snippet of timeline below to demonstrate - house sold, name changed .... need to think about this, it's curious .... one would think a frantic state would trigger the timeline below to follow, not precede. I find it odd.

April 25: Marion sells her home in three weeks for $165,000, a loss of $15,000.

May 15: Marion changed her name via deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel.

June 8: Marion attends Sally and Chris’ engagement party at their home in Tallai on the Gold Coast.

June 16: Marion writes her resignation letter to The Southport School to leave four days later (20th June).

June 21: Marion goes to Chris and Sally’s (with Lesley Loveday) for a roast dinner at Marion’s request.

June 23: Marion leaves Australia for the UK via Tokyo. Lesley drives Marion to the bus station in Southport to go to the airport and is the last known person to see her.