Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[almagata]

I was looking for some data on how far away murderers live from their victims and came across this article authored by Scott H. Decker, professor at the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Arizona.

We have been talking about the police releasing more details to help develop a profile of who the attacker is. This article covers why these types of details are really important for narrowing down who is most likely to be the Delphi killer.

A few key points:
"Most homicides also occur within relatively close proximity to the residences of victims and offenders."

"It is important to note that firearms are involved in about two-thirds of homicides in the U.S. That said, murders between intimates are more likely to involve “hands-on” violence, such as choking, beatings, or violence where the perpetrator physically touches the victim. Guns are more likely to be involved between perpetrators and victims who are strangers, or who know each other only in passing, like rival gang members."


Americans Mostly Kill the Ones We Know | Essay | Zócalo Public Square

 

[sunshineray]

Ok, but this is going to be a long explanation that requires you to remember some key points. And this is just my opinion. Remember these 4 points when reading my theories.

1. One person would not be afraid of another person unless they had seen that person close-up. So this theory assumes that at some point the bridge guy crossed paths with the girls.

2. Someone posted a youtube video showing that it takes approximately 10 minutes to walk from the Freedom Bridge to the Monon High Bridge. From the spot where Kelsi dropped off Abby and Libby it takes 4 minutes to walk straight to the Monon High Bridge.

3. The distance Liberty German eventually did end up filming the bridge guy was far enough away that no one could i.d. him, even with an enhanced close-up. I think most people are in agreement on this point.

4. Kelsi German dropped the girls off at around 1:30-1:40pm. Snapchat photo of Abigail Williams on the bridge has a time stamp of 2:07pm with no bridge guy in background. The Liberty German video of this bridge guy is AFTER the Snapchat photo.

The main question I had concerned what the girls were doing until 2:07 pm if it only takes 4 minutes to walk to the Monon High Bridge? The next question is what was the killer doing that, if they were playing around on the trail, he did not some how "catch up" to them while they were not moving. I think that is the problem with most of the re-creations of the case. They forget the period of time Libby and Abby were standing still not moving towards the Monon High Bridge.

Theory #1: The girls did walk all the way down to the Monon High Bridge and crossed it, and then this man appears on the bridge coming across. But then why would Libby film him since she has not already seen him before so he could present himself as a threat? She filmed him from far away. Is the place so isolated that seeing an adult crossing the Monon High Bridge sets off red flags?

Theory #2: The killer is walking back towards the drop off spot or catches up and passes Libby and Abby as they are walking towards the Monon High Bridge. He says something or looks at them strange. The girls continue on to the Monon High Bridge. What did the killer do? Stop and sit down for the next 20 minutes and then decide to go and kidnap the girls? He obviously did not follow directly behind Abby or he would have been seen in the Snapchat photo. And he obviously is not very smart when it comes to be videotaped since he ended up being videotaped by Liberty German later.

Theory #3: The killer arrived before the girls coming from either the Freedom Bridge, drop-off point, or maybe even the cemetery. He is already on the southeast side when Libby and Abby cross the bridge and they see him. He passes. Then he starts back to the north end and realizes looking down the trail that no one is coming. So he turns around on the bridge to go back towards Libby and Abby. Libby videotapes him when she sees this odd movement.

I think Theory #3 makes the most sense. I will admit, however, that it does not prove where the bridge guy came from to begin with. I am guessing he came up N 625 W. Then he left the same way. But I admit that is a pure guess that cannot be proven. Is it even possible?

But I think the theory that the killer was already on the southeast side of the bridge is a strong theory based on my 4 points above. I am interested in reading any other theories about how others think the scenario of Liberty German and Abigail Williams crossing paths with this man may have happened that day.

I know some youtubers have put out scenarios, but I think it is important to remember the missing time. If Kelsi dropped the girls off at 1:40(approximately) and the Snapchat photo was taken at 2:07pm and it only takes 4 minutes to walk directly to the Monon High Bridge, what were the girls doing during that time(the extra 23 minutes)? And where was the killer during those 23 minutes if we assume a person would not be afraid of another person if they had not met them up close beforehand?

In one of those walk through video's, can't recall which person's, right where Abby and Libby began on the trail there was a little area with a bench. It's possible that's where the girls encountered BG and could have got creeped out by his behavior. Maybe he was talking to himself (I've said before when I view a loop of the ISP video zoomed into BG's face, I see him either talking or singing) Then he just kept a distance away from them, stalking them. When they saw him again after they crossed, on the bridge coming towards them, they got nervous because the weird guy they saw was approaching them.

After hearing what ISP official recently said about the sketches though, my whole feeling about BG has changed. I have to consider more now that he had a partner.

Then just reading what I think is a transcript of a BP interview where she says she saw kids there under the bridge, I now think Abby and Libby did not get marched immediately down the hill by the bridge. BG must have taken them through the woods up top and then down the hill more in the area of the creek crossing. Those kids being there at BP search time and FSG even saying to DG at pick-up time that he saw a couple under the bridge means BG wouldn't have brought the girls down there, right?

 

[Charlot123]

I am reading on serial killers in other countries; interesting and I am trying to find some parallels with the person we don't know, BG.

First, many don't seem in general to travel far from their place of living. Moreover, when they move, for work or otherwise, they start to kill at the new place.

So I agree, they do live in proximity of the places they kill. This does not mean Delphi, could be Lafayette, for example, or any other town close by.

One of them was killing next to railroads, so that the K-9 dogs would not pick up his scent. (And also, to put the police on the wrong track - that it was someone connected to the railroad).

That guy put a lot of thinking into not leaving any traces, including DNA (in pre-DNA time); he did violate the bodies but always used barriers.

I assume if BG did not leave much in terms of traces, he is probably as meticulous as that guy. And if so, could he have crossed the creek back later (or perhaps the whole issue of crossing the creek was that the search dogs would not pick up his scent; he probably expected search dogs to be used)? Maybe he made the girls cross the water so that the dogs would lost their scent, too?

MOO - he did not go up the hill to the meat packers plant, he likely crossed the highway as the smell of driving cars and gas would mask his scent. I don't know if he was picked up by someone or just left on foot, though.

MOO - I think that at least one of the girls was killed very soon to avoid any struggle that would leave signs on him.

Another common trait in SK - too many have served in LE for a while, and were kicked out for some disgrace (stealing, etc), but tried to join LE again. They all were on the POI list, and not the first ones, but some knew how to talk to LE from their past experience.

Too many were abused as children for being small and lithe, and overcompensated by getting into sports lately, and many later were trying to join some macho-macho professions, such as seamen or marines and were not accepted.

I am wondering that maybe within the subgroup of SK that had experience with LE, not necessarily county police, maybe, military police or such, super high IQ is not even needed, as they have the advantage of knowing the intricate details of the police work, thinking, and how searches are organized?

 

[Charlot123]

Then just reading what I think is a transcript of a BP interview where she says she saw kids there under the bridge, I now think Abby and Libby did not get marched immediately down the hill by the bridge. BG must have taken them through the woods up top and then down the hill more in the area of the creek crossing. Those kids being there at BP search time and FSG even saying to DG at pick-up time that he saw a couple under the bridge means BG wouldn't have brought the girls down there, right?

Snipped by me.

I wonder if one or two of these kids under the bridge took the photos and got BG on them, too? They might have never looked at these photos, or for some reason are not sharing them because of own activity, but if that was a large group, and the day was sunny, could it be so that one of them also took pictures?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Would the girls not have been chosen by BG, if they wouldn't have entered the bridge? Did he need this trap on the South end to go for them?
Brainstorming a bit .....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Idk, if I would find still a link, but police in Delphi organized a closed meeting for Delphians short time after the double murder. Why did they do this? Is this known for other towns, where a double murder occurred? Why were only Delphians allowed to learn something about the search for the killer? Why was it a secret? Who was present at that time; is there a video? Do LE today know, that their suspect of April 2019 (NBG) had been present at that closed meeting in 2017?

 

[Charlot123]

Given the persons KNOWN to be looked at by LE, I'm wondering about how Abigail and Liberty were killed. Daniel Nations threatened people on a trail with an ax and someone was later killed on that trail with a gun. LE said there were "many similarities" about both sets of murders. Then Thomas Bruce sexually assaults women in the St. Louis area and kills one of them with a gun. Then Paul Etter kidnaps and rapes an adult woman in IN and LE is interested in his autopsy.
Again, these are KNOWN criminals LE is looking at so we don't know who else they were suspicious of in the investigation. I also believe a gun was used to control the girls, but I really don't have a clue as to how they were killed. My fear is that if this killer used the gun to control them without touching them and then shot them, then we very likely don't have his DNA at the crime scene.

Most perps I read about today would kill pretty early after abduction, and only then rape. The main reason, they wanted to minimize any evidence of a struggle, scratches, or bruises. I read about strangulations of unsuspecting, or very scared, victims, being the most common MOK. More common, the victims were having their back to the killer, but sometimes the killers would be facing them, too. Of great interest, a few surviving victims said that the perps avoided eye contact with them when strangling.

Paul Etter was a rapist, but he is not my POI.

 

[Charlot123]

Would the girls not have been chosen by BG, if they wouldn't have entered the bridge? Did he need this trap on the South end to go for them?
Brainstorming a bit .....

(Also from my today’s reading).
Ted Bundy was not the only one who favored a certain type; it is pretty common among perps. It is interesting how often the hair contributes into the feeling of “resemblance”.

Abby did not look older than her age on most photos, but that one on the bridge, with her hair upswept, was very different.

I wonder if BG used to have a girlfriend or a crush who wore her hair in the same style.

In answer to your question - I think it was her hair style, probably, her stride, she had long legs, and the fact that on the bridge, looking down, she appeared much older. So, yes, had they not entered the bridge, maybe he’d pass by, see a smiling child’s face and not contemplate what he ended up doing.

P.S. And, oh, the perps all constantly changed their looks, especially, clean-shaven vs mustache, style of clothes, haircut, etc. So I wonder if the change the LE mentioned at PC was purely visual.

 

[stattlich1]

What a fantastic couple pages of posts, I just read them all, wow!

The thing that sticks in my mind is this. IF....this killer is local, lives in, or has lived in Delphi, I find it so hard to believe there was no motive for killing these two girls. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that he is a murderer and was looking for a target of opportunity.

I still think he knew the two girls. When looking at the whole picture I just can't get it out of my head that this murder was done with the intention of protecting someone, someone in the local community who had something to lose, like, freedom, or reputation.

This murder was just.....too.....clean.....to have been random, spur of the moment rage.

I think he knew them, or knew of them.
He knows the area.
He knew they would be there that day.
There were other things going on at the bridge that day.
He was there before them, prepared.
He likely had an accomplice, maybe not in the actual act, but there are other players involved.
He is hiding in plain sight.
LE knows who he is.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

So where are the other photos?

Same place the rest of the video/audio is....
MOO

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Idk, if I would find still a link, but police in Delphi organized a closed meeting for Delphians short time after the double murder. Why did they do this? Is this known for other towns, where a double murder occurred? Why were only Delphians allowed to learn something about the search for the killer? Why was it a secret? Who was present at that time; is there a video? Do LE today know, that their suspect of April 2019 (NBG) had been present at that closed meeting in 2017?

Good questions... This was done in the Jayme Closs case, too. MOO

 

[somequestions]

Four minutes sounds exceptionally quick. You can certainly do it within that range if that's your stopwatch purpose. It sounds like something a sloppy YouTuber would film.

But I always like to keep track of real-world situational influence. I think I estimated 7-8 minutes in that Reddit thread. That would be normal duration for two girls chatting and having relaxed fun while walking a trail during a chilly afternoon on their day off.

Since it apparently required considerably longer than that, then Abby and Libby must have either delayed near the trailhead or along one of the trails. It didn't have to be the main 501 trail. They could have proceeded beyond the trailhead and checked out the creek below at right. It winds around in that area.

Any number of possibilities. Also, regarding that 2:07 timestamp the poster bitterbeatpoet on Reddit replied to me the other day that 2:07 isn't necessarily the time the picture was taken and posted. He said it was the time the picture was opened and viewed by one of Libby's Snapchat friends. He even mentioned her name, although I don't remember it.

I don't know anything about Snapchat so I can merely relay what others have said.

Otherwise:

* If Bridge Guy was on the railing under the bridge or urinating on the bridge or anything so outlandish and scary, Abby and Libby would not have waited for him at the end of the bridge. No chance of that. The reason this played out as it did was they were expecting awkward end of the normal range, and nothing more than that. Always default to normalcy and not 1000 additional variables as more likely instead of less likely. The reason the sucker books sell so well in the JFK case and DB Cooper case, etc. is that so many people want to grasp the most bizarre version

* I heard plenty of gunfire in Monticello but not in Delphi. There was obviously a firing range nearby in Monticello. It was startling me in Monticello but none of the locals were reacting at all

I do not know anything about Snapchat either. I just assumed whatever picture taken has to be posted quick because I thought I heard that Snapchat is for quick posting or else the information disappears.

That is a valid point when it comes to the time of the Snapchat photo. It certainly helps when you come up with theories that you are basing them on the correct information.

 

[MingyMoo]

Do you think he passed them on the bridge & turned around??

I suppose this could answer why he cant be seen behind Abby in the 2:07 photo. I really don't see why it isn't a possibility. It may also answer the difference in the tone of voice between Guys and get down the hill. Guys could have been a greeting. Something like Hey Guys or hi Guys. I do think the audio was spliced together.

MM

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I suppose this could answer why he cant be seen behind Abby in the 2:07 photo. I really don't see why it isn't a possibility. It may also answer the difference in the tone of voice between Guys and get down the hill. Guys could have been a greeting. Something like Hey Guys or hi Guys. I do think the audio was spliced together.

MM

I agree & yes I also believe the audio was spliced.

 

[MingyMoo]

What a fantastic couple pages of posts, I just read them all, wow!

The thing that sticks in my mind is this. IF....this killer is local, lives in, or has lived in Delphi, I find it so hard to believe there was no motive for killing these two girls. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that he is a murderer and was looking for a target of opportunity.

I still think he knew the two girls. When looking at the whole picture I just can't get it out of my head that this murder was done with the intention of protecting someone, someone in the local community who had something to lose, like, freedom, or reputation.

This murder was just.....too.....clean.....to have been random, spur of the moment rage.

I think he knew them, or knew of them.
He knows the area.
He knew they would be there that day.
There were other things going on at the bridge that day.
He was there before them, prepared.
He likely had an accomplice, maybe not in the actual act, but there are other players involved.
He is hiding in plain sight.
LE knows who he is.

I think you make some very valid points. I also ponder on the motive. I do have one idea which may not be well received however I will throw it out there. Is it just possible the murderer was there to kill someone for whatever reason but in actual fact Abby and Libby were not the intended victims. In short a case of mistaken identity. Not forgetting there were others out there in pairs shortly after if reports are correct. As I say just exploring all possibilities.

My Humble Opinion and all of that
MingyMoo

 

[Deleted member 102539]

(Also from my today’s reading).
Ted Bundy was not the only one who favored a certain type; it is pretty common among perps. It is interesting how often the hair contributes into the feeling of “resemblance”.

Abby did not look older than her age on most photos, but that one on the bridge, with her hair upswept, was very different.

I wonder if BG used to have a girlfriend or a crush who wore her hair in the same style.

In answer to your question - I think it was her hair style, probably, her stride, she had long legs, and the fact that on the bridge, looking down, she appeared much older. So, yes, had they not entered the bridge, maybe he’d pass by, see a smiling child’s face and not contemplate what he ended up doing.

P.S. And, oh, the perps all constantly changed their looks, especially, clean-shaven vs mustache, style of clothes, haircut, etc. So I wonder if the change the LE mentioned at PC was purely visual.

There was some resemblance between the Delphi girls and the Evansdale girls .....

 

[MingyMoo]

Well that is upsetting & news to me...if that’s true...then this is worse than I thought. I have been holding onto hope there was no SA.
ETA: After watching Kelsi’s debunking video, among other reasons, I don’t particularly rely on JR’s interviews.

I meant Abby's Mum was going to pick her up from Libby's home after she finished work. Which I believe from the reports was 8pm. Sorry if there was any confusion.

So DG to pick the girls up from the trails
Girls to return to LG home with DG
AW to pick Abby up from Libby's home after she finished work

I think I have that correct

MingyMoo

 

[Maplesyrup]

I think your Theory 3 is most likely. But I don't believe that he was ever on the trails that day. The disaster of 2 sketches makes me question the validity of the witness statements and worry that BG was never seen at all by anyone other than the girls. Where did he come from? Most likely the cemetery. I think he (or they) knew the area, knew the clearing where the girls were found, and probably parked at the cemetery. MOO

I will say that that theory above about BG popping up out of the middle of the bridge from underneath is particularly horrifying... I hadn't realized that was a possibility. Although with people under the bridge and on top of the bridge that day, I wonder if it's really a good hiding place or if people would have spotted him there.

I have seen videos of large gaps in the bridge where a person can climb down underneath. In fact AG [I don't know if I can use his name but he lives in the Delphi area] was out doing his video of how he thinks the crime went down. He had his two buddies with him and AG actually dropped down onto the metal beams under the bridge. If BG was hiding under the end of the bridge [the end where Libby took her snapchat photos] he could feasibly hike his leg up and crawl across a beam and up onto the bridge. Has anyone on here walked the bridge to clarify if there are any large gaps in the rail bed ties that would allow a human to climb up through? I have always thought that he literally popped into sight quickly. For as long as that bridge is, and considering that Libby was busy taking photos, I have always wondered how she didn't catch him in a photo way down on the far end of the bridge moving in their direction? If he came up from under the bridge unexpectedly, that would explain it. Is there anyone here that is familiar with the under structure of the MHB? Was it a local tradition for kids to climb up under the bridge and move along and come up further down the bridge? You know how kids always manage to find dangerous things to do that would horrify their parents [stupid kid stuff]. If BG ever lived in Delphi or is from the area, he may be very familiar with acting like a mole and popping up through openings in the bridge. May be something he once did with friends.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Idk, if I would find still a link, but police in Delphi organized a closed meeting for Delphians short time after the double murder. Why did they do this? Is this known for other towns, where a double murder occurred? Why were only Delphians allowed to learn something about the search for the killer? Why was it a secret? Who was present at that time; is there a video? Do LE today know, that their suspect of April 2019 (NBG) had been present at that closed meeting in 2017?

I remember that and thought at the time it was odd but understandable under the circumstances.
But then Delphi shut up like no place I have ever seen. Usually, even if LE isn’t talking, there are local rumors and talk and theories and this can be helpful in thinking about a case. We don’t delve in rumor here but on other sites, there was virtually nothing. Not necessarily zero, but very little.
The people of Delphi then and now are pretty much not talking and that has struck me throughout as very weird. I don’t know whether it’s driven by a request of LE, or fear, or...a don’t know. Related to that is the fact that LE now says the killer is local and no one has turned him in. No way multiple people...not just family members who are conflicted on whether to turn him in...don’t recognize the guy on the bridge. No way local people haven’t heard things, and suspect things and certain people. A very small town and a very heinous crime involving two of their own children...and very close to silence.
Thanks for bringing this up. This has perplexed me for a very long time.

 

[taximama24]

Only had time to skim the new thread, but just jumping in on the Snapchat clarification. Snapchat does not time stamp a shared photo. When a SC user takes a photo, they can do one of three things, or a combination thereof. They can send the photo to a SC contact, they can post the photo to their story, or they can save the photo to their SC camera roll. If the photo is shared to a contact or a story, other users who see it will not see a time stamp, but a difference in hrs from when it was shared to when it was viewed. They will also see the contact name of whom it came from. If the photo is saved to the camera roll, when viewed it will be date/time stamped and it will show a location of where the pic was taken and there will be no contact name.

The pic of Abby and the pic of the bridge were not saved, they were shared. You know this because "Liberty German" appears in the corner, meaning the picture was coming from her, along with the difference in time from viewed to shared of 7hrs. There is also the time dial indicating the countdown to when the picture will disappear. The user who received these pictures from Libby screen shot them rather quickly based on the nearly full dial in the images, and they likely screenshot them because already knew the girls were missing (its somewhat rare for teens to screenshot SC pics, the user gets a notification that you have done it) since the time difference of 7hrs would mean they were opening the SC from Libby well after the search started.

I always assumed the clip of BG was also taken on SC and saved to the SC camera roll because at the time of the murders you could only take a 10s clip in video on SC. I assumed the video was cropped because of its pixelated nature and that is why the time stamp and location were not in the clip. However I recently clicked on a few stories that included a fully zoomed out still image of BG on the bridge and there was no SC time stamp and location on it, and it was also in landcape rather than portrait framing, and for those reasons I concluded that image was from the camera roll itself, thus the video clip is also likely the camera roll too. MOO.