Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[Righttable]

I don’t remember that, either. I just remember DC stating they were onto something very early on. MOO

Yes, I've heard this too, but I don't believe I am getting these two things confused. I'm going to try and track down where I found the information. Fingers crossed someone else might be able to help

 

[Evinrude]

Lets come up with some different motives:

-thrill kill
-acquaintance possibly eliminating witness(s) of a crime he/she may have committed to one or both the girls.
-SA

 

[margarita25]

Somewhere in the loads of LE interviews early on, one of our guys (Holeman, Leazenby, etc.) talked about LE looking at cell phone records and tower info. I don't have a link at this time. Anyone?

I remember hearing too that they looked at all cell phones via cell dump analysis but I can't find the source.

Check here:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/in-abigail-williams-liberty-german-delphi-media-maps-timelines-no-discussion.329965/

 

[busymcmoody]

I'm changing my opinion. Sometimes I'm thinking, there is something in/around his mouth, very blurry. Sometimes I'm thinking, there can't be an object in/around his mouth, because when he for seconds looks to his left and back (video), he opens his mouth (it seems to me). That wouldn't work, if he had something in his mouth.

Yeah, I'm with you half the time. It's a wild theory, but I was bouncing ideas in my mind so that came up.

Very possible. It is our reality.
We are raising a new generation, generation Z, that lacks visual imagination because everything is digitized. For some of them virtual reality becomes their reality, and they can choose whatever fills their imaginary world. Someone dreams of sex, there is VR sex, and for those who might dream of murder but never attempt IRL, there might be VR murders on dark web now.

Or rape fantasies. I still think there is a SA component there.

 

[margarita25]

Lets come up with some different motives:

-thrill kill
-acquaintance possibly eliminating witness(s) of a crime he/she may have committed to one or both the girls.
-

There is little doubt in my mind this was SA, but who really knows for sure right?

As I’ve mentioned previously, when a man kills a female minor, how often is the motive NOT SA, excluding of course familial homicides, home invasion burglary, gang drive-bys, etc.

I’m all about considering all possibilities of course but I would add SA to the top of that list, moo.

 

[Righttable]

I don’t remember that, either. I just remember DC stating they were onto something very early on. MOO

Yes, I've heard this too, but I don't believe I am getting these two things confused. I'm going to try and track down where I found the information. Fingers crossed someone else might be able to help

 

[Ellie1]

Another reason for LE to be interested in Etter. According to his address on his Warrant, he lived in a wee little burg called Buck Creek. It is right on the Hoosier Heartland Hwy (we call State Road 25) and is only 9 miles from the center of Delphi. I find his charges very interesting.

If BG turns out to be Etter, I will be so mad that he got to go out on his own terms. I think it's unlikely to be him, but not impossible. As with so many others. Sigh.

 

[busymcmoody]

There is little doubt in my mind this was SA, but who really knows for sure right?

As I’ve mentioned previously, when a man kills a female minor, how often is the motive NOT SA, excluding of course familial homicides, home invasion burglary, gang drive-bys, etc.

I’m all about considering all possibilities of course but I would add SA to the top of that list, moo.

I'm in the SA camp too. I can't give you numbers on how often it's not SA but I'm sure it's super low.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don’t remember that, either. I just remember DC stating they were onto something very early on. MOO

I'd be curious to see if DC's statement came out around the time that Ives decided to have the autopsies (and everything else) sealed.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Yes, I've heard this too, but I don't believe I am getting these two things confused. I'm going to try and track down where I found the information. Fingers crossed someone else might be able to help

I don’t think you’re confusing them, either. I think if the LE did have a suspect, that might be what DC was referring to with his statement, without actually saying anything about the FBI. I hope that makes sense? MOO
ETA: If this is true, then LE already knows who killed the girls. I think it’s a matter of placing him there...his alibi is a coverup of some sort. Just my thoughts & MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

What, if the home of the snowbirds (I think, you mean these people) was broken into during this time? What, if the owners of the home didn't call LE, when they returned and noticed some signs of burglary? Maybe, they had concerns because of the vicinity to the crime scene and the unpleasant connections, which would have brought some trouble?
It's only a thought .... MOO
There are killers, who are also practiced in B&E very well. Sometimes they started their criminal career with something like this.
Question, which would remain: How/why did the burglar/killer know, that the inhabitants were not present (IF he knew)?

If BG was local, it may be common knowledge in town that the owners are out of town in the winter.
But your post caused me to think that...if the killer did know they were out of town, maybe that is the direction he walked out. We’ve all been caught up on him exiting by the cemetery, or the Freedom Bridge, on that side of the creek. What if he waded back through the water(he’s already wet)(an opportunity to rinse evidence off quickly) up the hill and out toward the south. If he hears DG calling for them, he knows that person is coming from the north side with the trailhead. To get away, you walk away from that. Just a thought.

 

[JnRyan]

The discussion on why this killer's DNA may have not shown up as a match in CODIS and the number of untested rape kits in US was on here recently. (And I was probably the most guilty for stirring things up.) Here is an ABC News article on untested rape kits:
Backlog of untested rape kits is 'a public safety issue,' may let offenders slip away

Per the above article NC has more untested kits than any other state, 14000. The article makes two interesting observations. One is it would 'take years and years' to eliminate the backlog. The other is a grant for $1 million would cover the costs of only 10% or 1400 of those kits. And the next most is in CA with over 13000.

In another news article from May of this year, there are estimated to be 250,000 untested kits in the US. The estimate is that approximately 2 million crimes might be solved by entering the DNA from the kits into the system.
Nearly a quarter-million rape kits are estimated to be untested throughout the US

If LE has the killer's DNA here, what are the chances his DNA is in one or more of these untested kits somewhere else? I consider it very likely that Abigail and Liberty's murders are his only murders. But I also believe it is very likely he committed other violent sex crimes prior to these murders that didn't necessarily involve murder.

 

[busymcmoody]

The discussion on why this killer's DNA may have not shown up as a match in CODIS and the number of untested rape kits in US was on here recently. (And I was probably the most guilty for stirring things up.) Here is an ABC News article on untested rape kits:
Backlog of untested rape kits is 'a public safety issue,' may let offenders slip away

Per the above article NC has more untested kits than any other state, 14000. The article makes two interesting observations. One is it would 'take years and years' to eliminate the backlog. The other is a grant for $1 million would cover the costs of only 10% or 1400 of those kits. And the next most is in CA with over 13000.

In another news article from May of this year, there are estimated to be 250,000 untested kits in the US. The estimate is that approximately 2 million crimes might be solved by entering the DNA from the kits into the system.
Nearly a quarter-million rape kits are estimated to be untested throughout the US

If LE has the killer's DNA here, what are the chances his DNA is in one or more of these untested kits somewhere else? I consider it very likely that Abigail and Liberty's murders are his only murders. But I also believe it is very likely he committed other violent sex crimes prior to these murders that didn't necessarily involve murder.

Imagine how many new prisons they'd have to build. Even if some of them have died or are already incarcerated, even if some of those are repeat offenders you're still left with a hefty number. And that costs a lot of money too.

 

[Righttable]

I don’t think you’re confusing them, either. I think if the LE did have a suspect, that might be what DC was referring to with his statement, without actually saying anything about the FBI. I hope that makes sense? MOO
ETA: If this is true, then LE already knows who killed the girls. I think it’s a matter of placing him there...his alibi is a coverup of some sort. Just my thoughts & MOO

Yes, I could see this. It would be awkward and unprofessional if ISP came out and said: "We were right and the FBI was wrong".

I do think that there is a link with DC's statement about being onto something in the beginning. Maybe they didn't have the correct person, but he was someone in the killers circle and new information (or going back over old information) has made them connect the dots between the younger person described by a witness and an original POI. I think maybe they smelled a rat earlier in the investigation, and they thought this person was covering for themself, but they were actually covering for a family member or scared to tell what they knew for fear of retribution.

I don't know what could make them so certain they had the correct person? Is it possible they found something on this persons property that related to the crime but there was no usable DNA on it? Maybe it was a weapon taken from the person's property and used in the crime?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Yes, I could see this. It would be awkward and unprofessional if ISP came out and said: "We were right and the FBI was wrong".

I do think that there is a link with DC's statement about being onto something in the beginning. Maybe they didn't have the correct person, but he was someone in the killers circle and new information (or going back over old information) has made them connect the dots between the younger person described by a witness and an original POI. I think maybe they smelled a rat earlier in the investigation, and they thought this person was covering for themself, but they were actually covering for a family member or scared to tell what they knew for fear of retribution.

I don't know what could make them so certain they had the correct person? Is it possible they found something on this persons property that related to the crime but there was no usable DNA on it? Maybe it was a weapon taken from the person's property and used in the crime?

Quoted BBM

The search on Bicycle Bridge road took place on Feb 16th at around 7 P.M., which was very early on in this case.

Search warrant served at Delphi family farm in connection with two murdered teens investigation

"Basically, with information we received from tips and interviewing people, we had enough probable cause to believe we had enough information that could be relevant to the case," said Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley. "We then took it to the judge. The judge gave us a search warrant and we executed the search warrant."

The second sketch was drawn just days after the murders.

'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says

"A sketch police believe may depict the face of the killer behind the 2017 slayings of two girls in Indiana and that was released to the public on Monday was actually drawn two years ago -- just days after the victim's bodies were discovered."

I can't help but think that the SW and the second sketch might be connected somehow. I am not saying that the people who lived in the house that was searched are involved in the murders, but perhaps LE knows that the killer was on their property and maybe was seen by someone who lived there.

JMO and a working theory

 

[JnRyan]

Imagine how many new prisons they'd have to build. Even if some of them have died or are already incarcerated, even if some of those are repeat offenders you're still left with a hefty number. And that costs a lot of money too.

And we all know happens when we have a case of over-crowded prisons.

 

[Righttable]

Quoted BBM

The search on Bicycle Bridge road took place on Feb 16th at around 7 P.M., which was very early on in this case.

Search warrant served at Delphi family farm in connection with two murdered teens investigation

"Basically, with information we received from tips and interviewing people, we had enough probable cause to believe we had enough information that could be relevant to the case," said Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley. "We then took it to the judge. The judge gave us a search warrant and we executed the search warrant."

The second sketch was drawn just days after the murders.

'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says

"A sketch police believe may depict the face of the killer behind the 2017 slayings of two girls in Indiana and that was released to the public on Monday was actually drawn two years ago -- just days after the victim's bodies were discovered."

I can't help but think that the SW and the second sketch might be connected somehow. I am not saying that the people who lived in the house that was searched are involved in the murders, but perhaps LE knows that the killer was on their property and maybe was seen by someone who lived there.

JMO and a working theory

The source of the second sketch is one of the biggest mysteries. I've heard so many different theories but never this, it's a really interesting idea.

If there was something on the property pertaining to the crime, and someone at the household had seen a trespasser prior to the murders it would really be a mess if they hadn't taken that seriously.

I don't know why but my gut is telling me that they believed it was an older person straight off the bat. I don't think they ever really considered it was someone younger and the sketch of the younger man was shelved early on. Honestly I don't blame them, I remember seeing the picture soon after the crime and assuming it was a man atleast in his forties. I think they were looking for a local, but they were working off the presumption this was an older guy.

 

[margarita25]

If this is not a SK I will eat crow.

Every day I come across more and more old cases which involve SKs which are reminiscent of this case here, imo.

Here’s one I saw the other day while studying Cheryl’s and Andy’s case I referenced a couple pages back.

I haven’t even gone to the thread yet, not even sure if there is one, I’ll check, but I’m curious to see if they found the perp, and who he was. I mean WHO he was. Was he local? Did he travel? We’re there other victims? Was there SA? What was COD? All those types of things.

Of course using other cases for references as related to forensic psychology and profiling purposes doesn’t necessarily mean that Abby’s and Libby’s killer would be similar or have something in common, but was we look for BG, we have to really think about who BG really is, as a person. Again, does it mean BG and other perps are the same? Not necessarily. But we can note certain things, such as the props they may bring, how far they traveled if they traveled, etc etc.

Sorry that this is somewhat o/t, I don’t know where else to post this train of thought.

Here’s the article—it looks like there’s a docuseries which looks really interesting.

In 1974, two Dickinson girls went missing. Why didn't police investigate?

Looking to see if they found the perp and who he was.

(ETA: it’s appear two additional pairs of girls were killed from the article.)

 

[Evinrude]

One way for a “lone wolf” to subdue would be for he/she to approach the two girls with a gun perhaps. Then use wrist restraints (hand cuffs/zip tie) to connect the girls to keep one or both from fleeing.

 

[tresir2012]

The discussion on why this killer's DNA may have not shown up as a match in CODIS and the number of untested rape kits in US was on here recently. (And I was probably the most guilty for stirring things up.) Here is an ABC News article on untested rape kits:
Backlog of untested rape kits is 'a public safety issue,' may let offenders slip away

Per the above article NC has more untested kits than any other state, 14000. The article makes two interesting observations. One is it would 'take years and years' to eliminate the backlog. The other is a grant for $1 million would cover the costs of only 10% or 1400 of those kits. And the next most is in CA with over 13000.

In another news article from May of this year, there are estimated to be 250,000 untested kits in the US. The estimate is that approximately 2 million crimes might be solved by entering the DNA from the kits into the system.
Nearly a quarter-million rape kits are estimated to be untested throughout the US

If LE has the killer's DNA here, what are the chances his DNA is in one or more of these untested kits somewhere else? I consider it very likely that Abigail and Liberty's murders are his only murders. But I also believe it is very likely he committed other violent sex crimes prior to these murders that didn't necessarily involve murder.

I don't understand why these rape kits are not needed for prosecutions. Can you explain that?