GUILTY CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - *Arrest* #69

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I’m still confused.

KB left Safeway at 12:27 with baby K.

PF, KB and the baby are seen going into the condo at 1:24.

But sometime between 12:27 and 1:24 PF somehow got the baby from KB, took baby to the atm and Walmart then met back up with KB and all 3 went into the condo with the stuff she bought at Safeway.

My question is why did KB not bring the groceries in until all 3 of them were together? Maybe I’m overthinking things but seems so strange to me.
Kelsey Berreth murder case: Patrick Frazee’s brother — who is a Colorado police officer — takes stand in murder trial – Canon City Daily Record
The expert who compiled the images, Chad Meninger, said the method he used to find and timestamp the images meant things could be slightly out of order, but would be accurate within a few hours.
 
I’m still confused.

KB left Safeway at 12:27 with baby K.

PF, KB and the baby are seen going into the condo at 1:24.

But sometime between 12:27 and 1:24 PF somehow got the baby from KB, took baby to the atm and Walmart then met back up with KB and all 3 went into the condo with the stuff she bought at Safeway.

My question is why did KB not bring the groceries in until all 3 of them were together? Maybe I’m overthinking things but seems so strange to me.
I think that is the point. I think he was building an alibi. There was no baby in the carrier at the ATM or at Walmart. At those moments KB still had the baby with her.
 
He could of said he brought it in to put Baby K toys in or a number of things. IMO not many of us would think much about somebody bringing a tote into our house. Adding: at least not before PF killed Kelsey and put her in one.
 
It prob proportional to him as my 34 X 18 totes are to me (I'm 5' 3"). I wish I could find something about the same size and put a 6 ft something guy next to it in front of a door. How tall is PF?

We use our totes all of the time. Pack them up and load them in the truck. They are great for moving kids off to college. To be honest, KB would have fit very easily in that tote he had. She could have fit in the ones I have no prob.

You were there (thank goodness!!) and I wasn't, so I do not want to disregard what you are saying. I just see what could be a black tote and based on what I have at my house I think he could do it. I just don't really see that bat, but maybe it is.

I think it's really interesting how we all agree it's something weird though! Probably..because it is!
I agree it is something weird, is it the baby carrier?
 
In studying the Safeway and Walmart photos, I see the same car seat, the same baby blanket. I think I see a baby ear in the Walmart image which makes me think Baby K is indeed in her carseat there....

Wasn't his story that they met at Walmart for the exchange?

Maybe that DID happen.... but then they both drove back to the townhouse, in tandem. He didn't know he'd be captured on residential and company surveillance cameras.

Where is KB from after Safeway until she's seen again at her door, with PF?

Where is she when PF is letting himself into her townhouse?

Does KK think she'll be making sweet potato casserole TO bring to Thanksgiving Day at the franch?

We almost need to label PF's actions as PF1 (murder planner) and PF2 (boyfriend pretender). Entering her house in secret, PF1. Going in with her, with Baby K and the poinsettia, PF2.

Also.... the cookie cutters. Maybe she kept something in with the cookie cutters, or at least in the same drawer/cabinet. Spare keys, something. Maybe he MOVED the baggie of cookie cutters. Maybe it wasn't the cookie cutters themselves that mattered to him, just something under or behind. Keys, bullets. Just a thought....

MOO
 
Maybe I can help shed a bit of light on KKs twitching. I’m not sure if she has Tourette’s or some other type of transient tic disorder, but at the very least it looks like she has at least a nervous tic. Two actually - a vocal tic (the sniffling) and a motor tic (the thing she does with her neck.) I’ve had Tourettes since I was very young. You’d never know it if you saw me because it’s very easy to learn how to suppress them around other people. But if I were in a situation where I was possibly facing a ton of jail time, I’m not so sure I’d be able to as they become much more pronounced in times of stress, anxiety, etc.

or maybe she’s just a coke head...

moo
 
BBM
so would waist high not be about half of his height?

apparently the tote is not available at Lowes now...so I can't go see it. :/
At any rate, the jury requested this photo....I wonder what, if anything, they saw.
I read somewhere this morning, the picture was inadvertently left out of the evidence given to the jury. The jury wanted it.
 
In studying the Safeway and Walmart photos, I see the same car seat, the same baby blanket. I think I see a baby ear in the Walmart image which makes me think Baby K is indeed in her carseat there....

Wasn't his story that they met at Walmart for the exchange?

Maybe that DID happen.... but then they both drove back to the townhouse, in tandem. He didn't know he'd be captured on residential and company surveillance cameras.

Where is KB from after Safeway until she's seen again at her door, with PF?

Where is she when PF is letting himself into her townhouse?

Does KK think she'll be making sweet potato casserole TO bring to Thanksgiving Day at the franch?

We almost need to label PF's actions as PF1 (murder planner) and PF2 (boyfriend pretender). Entering her house in secret, PF1. Going in with her, with Baby K and the poinsettia, PF2.

Also.... the cookie cutters. Maybe she kept something in with the cookie cutters, or at least in the same drawer/cabinet. Spare keys, something. Maybe he MOVED the baggie of cookie cutters. Maybe it wasn't the cookie cutters themselves that mattered to him, just something under or behind. Keys, bullets. Just a thought....

MOO

Megnut, there is an awesome WS timeline that will answer lots of your questions.
I forget so many details and have to return to it often.
 
Maybe I can help shed a bit of light on KKs twitching. I’m not sure if she has Tourette’s or some other type of transient tic disorder, but at the very least it looks like she has at least a nervous tic. Two actually - a vocal tic (the sniffling) and a motor tic (the thing she does with her neck.) I’ve had Tourettes since I was very young. You’d never know it if you saw me because it’s very easy to learn how to suppress them around other people. But if I were in a situation where I was possibly facing a ton of jail time, I’m not so sure I’d be able to as they become much more pronounced in times of stress, anxiety, etc.

or maybe she’s just a coke head...

moo
dbm
 
I’m still confused.

KB left Safeway at 12:27 with baby K.

PF, KB and the baby are seen going into the condo at 1:24.

But sometime between 12:27 and 1:24 PF somehow got the baby from KB, took baby to the atm and Walmart then met back up with KB and all 3 went into the condo with the stuff she bought at Safeway.

My question is why did KB not bring the groceries in until all 3 of them were together? Maybe I’m overthinking things but seems so strange to me.

I think that we are missing neighbor CCTV photos of KB returning from the store and bringing in the groceries. I think that it is possible that KB pulled into her driveway at 12:33 and called PF before she even got out of her car. PF was driving around the neighborhood so that KB would not know he had been to her condo while she was at the store. PF pulled up behind her right away when she called and she was still trying to get the baby and the groceries out. She gave the baby and carrier to PF in the parking lot and he left for the store right after. He was not seen on the neighbors camera leaving with the baby but his truck was on the furniture store camera driving away from KB's condo at 12:38. And then he was seen with the baby at the bank and Walmart.

I have two theories on why the flowers make an appearance with KB when PF returns to the condo at 1:24:

Theory 1. Perhaps KB brought the flowers into her condo with her groceries when she got home at 12:33 but that photo wasn't saved/wasn't viewed. Maybe the photo we see of KB with the flowers is her stepping outside when PF returns at 1:24. I think she stepped out with the flowers and her purse thinking that they were going for Thanksgiving at the Franch as soon as he returned. But PF might have made some excuse or told her it wasn't time for dinner yet and ushered her back inside so he could murder her.

Theory 2: Perhaps KB forgot the flowers in her car until PF returned with the baby. Maybe as he pulled up she remembered she bought flowers and went to retrieve them at that time? This theory doesn't quite work for me because KB has her purse over her shoulder but maybe her purse had also been left in the car in her hurry to get the groceries in and put away and due to KB being tired and distracted by PF taking the baby with him?

Part of the detailed timeline is below with my additions in red to make sense of what happened: Inside the Patrick Frazee Trial
-9:40 a.m.: Frazee’s phone called Berreth’s phone. His phone was in Florissant and her phone was in Woodland Park
-12:24 p.m.: Commercial surveillance captured Berreth and Kaylee at the Woodland Park Safeway
-12:30 p.m.: Williams Furniture showed Frazee’s truck traveling north toward Berreth’s home
-12:31 p.m.: Frazee called Berreth’s phone. Both were in Woodland Park
-12:31 p.m.: Berreth’s red Chevy traveled north toward her home, as seen on the Williams Furniture camera
-12:33 p.m.: Berreth called Frazee
PF picks up the baby and KB Enters her condo with groceries but this is not caught on neighbor CCTV/image not saved.
-12:38 p.m.: Frazee’s truck drove south away from Berreth’s home
-12:41 p.m.: Berreth texted Frazee saying she bought the sweet potatoes
-12:44-12:50 p.m.: Frazee was spotted in his truck at the Woodland Park Ent
-12:52 p.m.: Frazee and Kaylee were seen at the Walmart
-1:19 p.m.: Frazee’s truck drove north toward Berreth’s home, as seen on the Williams Furniture surveillance
KB steps outside with the flowers and her purse OR goes to retrieve the flowers from the car at this time.
-1:24 p.m.: Frazee, Berreth and Kaylee were seen at Berreth’s front door, as seen on her neighbor’s outdoor cameras
-4:20-4:32 p.m.: A camera captured Frazee at Berreth’s door

MOO.
 
Going back to PF at the bank inside. One question he asked was "can they see the carrier?"
At the time I thought ok, but why, what's the big deal.
Well, as it stands that carrier was made to look like there was a baby in it.
I don't believe there was.
He's at the AMT and Wal-Mart BEFORE Kelsey gets back with the baby grocers and the poinseta.
Alibi building!
THATS why he wanted to see if it could be seen.
That's why I'm wondering if he purposely wore his "PF" hat to Walmart. But... I fear that could be giving him way too much smart person credit. In the gas station surveillance photos, it looks like he is wearing some kind of hood and trying to conceal his appearance, but then again, he's right next to his bright red truck so who knows.
 
Good point that maybe she already knew he would be late for dinner??

I know PF called his mother @4:30 and told her he was going to be late. I’m not sure if it was ever said by SF2 if PF gave an excuse to them once he got there why he was late?

JMO
I've always wondered about that because when he called his Mom at 4:30, he was already late. He should haven't called at 2 and said he was running late.

I am surprised she didn't call him, before she served dinner, to see if he was on the way. As noted above, maybe she already knew he was going to be late...
 
I’m still confused.

KB left Safeway at 12:27 with baby K.

PF, KB and the baby are seen going into the condo at 1:24.

But sometime between 12:27 and 1:24 PF somehow got the baby from KB, took baby to the atm and Walmart then met back up with KB and all 3 went into the condo with the stuff she bought at Safeway.

My question is why did KB not bring the groceries in until all 3 of them were together? Maybe I’m overthinking things but seems so strange to me.
I think that is the point. I think he was building an alibi. There was no baby in the carrier at the ATM or at Walmart. At those moments KB still had the baby with her.
I think that we are missing neighbor CCTV photos of KB returning from the store and bringing in the groceries. I think that it is possible that KB pulled into her driveway at 12:33 and called PF before she even got out of her car. PF was driving around the neighborhood so that KB would not know he had been to her condo while she was at the store. PF pulled up behind her right away when she called and she was still trying to get the baby and the groceries out. She gave the baby and carrier to PF in the parking lot and he left for the store right after. He was not seen on the neighbors camera leaving with the baby but his truck was on the furniture store camera driving away from KB's condo at 12:38. And then he was seen with the baby at the bank and Walmart.

I have two theories on why the flowers make an appearance with KB when PF returns to the condo at 1:24:

Theory 1. Perhaps KB brought the flowers into her condo with her groceries when she got home at 12:33 but that photo wasn't saved/wasn't viewed. Maybe the photo we see of KB with the flowers is her stepping outside when PF returns at 1:24. I think she stepped out with the flowers and her purse thinking that they were going for Thanksgiving at the Franch as soon as he returned. But PF might have made some excuse or told her it wasn't time for dinner yet and ushered her back inside so he could murder her.

Theory 2: Perhaps KB forgot the flowers in her car until PF returned with the baby. Maybe as he pulled up she remembered she bought flowers and went to retrieve them at that time? This theory doesn't quite work for me because KB has her purse over her shoulder but maybe her purse had also been left in the car in her hurry to get the groceries in and put away and due to KB being tired and distracted by PF taking the baby with him?

Part of the detailed timeline is below with my additions in red to make sense of what happened: Inside the Patrick Frazee Trial
-9:40 a.m.: Frazee’s phone called Berreth’s phone. His phone was in Florissant and her phone was in Woodland Park
-12:24 p.m.: Commercial surveillance captured Berreth and Kaylee at the Woodland Park Safeway
-12:30 p.m.: Williams Furniture showed Frazee’s truck traveling north toward Berreth’s home
-12:31 p.m.: Frazee called Berreth’s phone. Both were in Woodland Park
-12:31 p.m.: Berreth’s red Chevy traveled north toward her home, as seen on the Williams Furniture camera
-12:33 p.m.: Berreth called Frazee
PF picks up the baby and KB Enters her condo with groceries but this is not caught on neighbor CCTV/image not saved.
-12:38 p.m.: Frazee’s truck drove south away from Berreth’s home
-12:41 p.m.: Berreth texted Frazee saying she bought the sweet potatoes
-12:44-12:50 p.m.: Frazee was spotted in his truck at the Woodland Park Ent
-12:52 p.m.: Frazee and Kaylee were seen at the Walmart
-1:19 p.m.: Frazee’s truck drove north toward Berreth’s home, as seen on the Williams Furniture surveillance
KB steps outside with the flowers and her purse OR goes to retrieve the flowers from the car at this time.
-1:24 p.m.: Frazee, Berreth and Kaylee were seen at Berreth’s front door, as seen on her neighbor’s outdoor cameras
-4:20-4:32 p.m.: A camera captured Frazee at Berreth’s door

MOO.
Except at 1236 pm he is alone, using his keys and bringing something into the house.
 
I wonder whether that big tote would have even fit in the trunk of KK's friend's VW... I haven't been able to find actual dimensions of the trunk ~ just that it had a volume of approx. 15 cubic feet. I imagine the smell of decomposition would have been pretty strong after a couple of days, making it impractical to travel 12 hours with the tote sitting in the back seat. Perhaps KK would have been more willing to travel with and dispose of KB's remains in that tote if she'd been driving her own truck on that trip.

That being said, it seems that PF had been busy preparing for the bonfire before KK even arrived on scene, so I'm not even convinced that burning it really was 'Plan B'... Maybe that's just one of those little tidbits made up by KK in an attempt to garner some sort of sympathy.

ETA: I see now that MemPat & Steelslady already brought this up a couple of pages back... Sorry, I missed those posts!
I think he was always planning on a bonfire for other evidence to be burned, but not necessarily the body. JMO
 
Except at 1236 pm he is alone, using his keys and bringing something into the house.

Hmmm... You are right. But I still think PF put a bat in KB's condo before KB returned from the store. Is it possible that the timestamp on the Arlo camera photos represents what time the photo was viewed by the neighbor? We were told that If alerts were not viewed then they were not saved to the neighbor's phone. For most of these the neighbor is probably checking the camera within minutes of getting an alert. Maybe the simpler explanation is that the 1:24 photo was from earlier when KB returned home but it was not looked at right away so the timestamp is off?

MOO.
 
BBM
so would waist high not be about half of his height?

apparently the tote is not available at Lowes now...so I can't go see it. :/
At any rate, the jury requested this photo....I wonder what, if anything, they saw.
isn't PF ridiculously tall too?
like 6'2''++ something like that

an enormous strong farm man swinging a baseball bat at a tiny little petite woman :mad::mad::mad:
 
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In studying the Safeway and Walmart photos, I see the same car seat, the same baby blanket. I think I see a baby ear in the Walmart image which makes me think Baby K is indeed in her carseat there....

Wasn't his story that they met at Walmart for the exchange?

Maybe that DID happen.... but then they both drove back to the townhouse, in tandem. He didn't know he'd be captured on residential and company surveillance cameras.

Where is KB from after Safeway until she's seen again at her door, with PF?

Where is she when PF is letting himself into her townhouse?

Does KK think she'll be making sweet potato casserole TO bring to Thanksgiving Day at the franch?

We almost need to label PF's actions as PF1 (murder planner) and PF2 (boyfriend pretender). Entering her house in secret, PF1. Going in with her, with Baby K and the poinsettia, PF2.

Also.... the cookie cutters. Maybe she kept something in with the cookie cutters, or at least in the same drawer/cabinet. Spare keys, something. Maybe he MOVED the baggie of cookie cutters. Maybe it wasn't the cookie cutters themselves that mattered to him, just something under or behind. Keys, bullets. Just a thought....

MOO
The baby exchange took place in the alley between the townhouses after Kelsey returned from Safeway.
Then PF took the baby with him to the bank and Walmart before returning to the house.
Kelsey never left the house again after she returned from Safeway.

Imo
 
The baby exchange took place in the alley between the townhouses after Kelsey returned from Safeway.
Then PF took the baby with him to the bank and Walmart before returning to the house.
Kelsey never left the house again after she returned from Safeway.

Imo
At what time did the exchange take place?
 
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