Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[tresir2012]

How would they have departed the scene?

How and when would the killer have returned?

How long would it take to move two bodies down to the final crime scene?

How much time would be involved in the entire endeavor?

If he was known to them they could have gone willingly, either on foot or in a vehicle. Take a look at the Etter thread to see how he did it. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

BBM
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No, it doesn't, actually. Your logic is very flawed. Having knowledge of a crime does not make someone a co-conspirator. Aside from the fact that that statement may be wishful thinking on the part of LE, BG might have bragged to someone about the crime after the fact, or (more likely) LE has concluded that someone must have recognized BG from the video and audio but may be reluctant to come forward. In either case, such a person would only be a material witness. If someone knowingly gave BG a phony alibi, that person could be an accessory after the fact (or not, depending on how much the person knew) but still wouldn't be a co-conspirator.
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As far as the car goes, it may have been a car shared by several people; maybe all of those people have denied using it that day. Maybe someone claimed to be driving it, but LE thinks that that person is covering for a suspect. We don't know whether LE thinks the car was driven by BG or whether they are looking for a potential witness.
-
As for restricting thinking, of course we need to restrict thinking somewhat--to what is supported by the evidence! That's the whole point of investigating a crime. It's called narrowing the focus. It's how crimes get solved. Wild conjecture and fantasy aren't helpful. Of course we don't know as much as LE, but we know quite a bit. We might not be able to rule out uncooperative witnesses (or even accessories after the fact), but we can absolutely rule out the possibility of a second perp.

It's not too wild to think there was an accomplice. LE has been appealing to someone for that last piece of the puzzle. Also, that could be complicating the DNA if there was another present or someone assisted in the hiding of the bodies. They were side by side according to one article I recently posted in the media thread. That is weird of itself. MOO

 

[Boxer]

I have thought about these searches quite a bit. I know we have discussed many theories, but the only conclusion I can come to is that perhaps BG used the property (outbuildings, "shed", etc.) to change clothing/clean up after the crime. If BG is truly local, he may have seen RL leave with a truckload full of items for his trip to the landfill. Having a place nearby to quickly change clothing, rejoin the trail or walk along the road, would enable him to leave the area undetected as BG. IF he was seen after he dropped his "disguise", he may have felt confident he would not be reported by any witness he may have encountered.

I have also wondered if the second location searched (as reported in MSM), was because there was some sort of communication with the girls from someone associated with this address. Maybe text messages, or other online communication, or perhaps a cell phone that pinged in the area of MHB.

These were just a few theories I thought of at the time. May or may not be accurate, but there definitely was a reason for these early searches, and a judge signing a search warrant to collect evidence, IMO.

I doubt the killer did anything but leave. He may have stuffed his outer clothes into a bag along the way out -
a bag I would think would have been been burnt at the first opportunity. Or perhaps he is so brazen the clothes went into a gas station trash somewhere.

 

[tresir2012]

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

This is an article from Sept 2019. It mentions the girls being found side by side and covered in undergrowth.


"Their bodies were hidden in the undergrowth on a remote hiking trail near their hometown of Delphi, Indiana, in the American Midwest.



They had been placed alongside one another, and although police have not released any details of the cause of death, it was clear they had been murdered.

Abby and Libby’s deaths reverberated through the small town, because it was unlikely that anyone other than a local would have known about the track the girls were walking on that day."

I posted this on the last thread and also in the media thread on Nov 19th.

The fact they were side by side and covered in undergrowth indicates to me they were placed there after death. MOO.

ETA the article mentions there is a Twitter feed, a website and a Facebook set up by the Family. Are we allowed to post those links on here as they are for the victims?

 

[Charlot123]

BBM
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No, it doesn't, actually. Your logic is very flawed. Having knowledge of a crime does not make someone a co-conspirator. Aside from the fact that that statement may be wishful thinking on the part of LE, BG might have bragged to someone about the crime after the fact, or (more likely) LE has concluded that someone must have recognized BG from the video and audio but may be reluctant to come forward. In either case, such a person would only be a material witness. If someone knowingly gave BG a phony alibi, that person could be an accessory after the fact (or not, depending on how much the person knew) but still wouldn't be a co-conspirator.
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As far as the car goes, it may have been a car shared by several people; maybe all of those people have denied using it that day. Maybe someone claimed to be driving it, but LE thinks that that person is covering for a suspect. We don't know whether LE thinks the car was driven by BG or whether they are looking for a potential witness.
-
As for restricting thinking, of course we need to restrict thinking somewhat--to what is supported by the evidence! That's the whole point of investigating a crime. It's called narrowing the focus. It's how crimes get solved. Wild conjecture and fantasy aren't helpful. Of course we don't know as much as LE, but we know quite a bit. We might not be able to rule out uncooperative witnesses (or even accessories after the fact), but we can absolutely rule out the possibility of a second perp.

Ozoner, respectfully, while it is hard to imagine that even one person can be so ... mad, much less assume there are two, LE has provided the public with zero information to rely on. All we see is that within 2++ years, no results, and this generates mistrust. It is easier to believe in one perp, but if they say, two, or three, I won’t be shocked.

 

[kkdj]

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

This is an article from Sept 2019. It mentions the girls being found side by side and covered in undergrowth.


"Their bodies were hidden in the undergrowth on a remote hiking trail near their hometown of Delphi, Indiana, in the American Midwest.



They had been placed alongside one another, and although police have not released any details of the cause of death, it was clear they had been murdered.

Abby and Libby’s deaths reverberated through the small town, because it was unlikely that anyone other than a local would have known about the track the girls were walking on that day."

I posted this on the last thread and also in the media thread on Nov 19th.

The fact they were side by side indicates to me they were placed there after death. MOO.

BBM
I have also read they were apart from each other. However, I have always wondered if they were placed after death. Carter saying that they are no longer how the murderer left them haunts my mind too.

 

[Boxer]

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

This is an article from Sept 2019. It mentions the girls being found side by side and covered in undergrowth.


"Their bodies were hidden in the undergrowth on a remote hiking trail near their hometown of Delphi, Indiana, in the American Midwest.



They had been placed alongside one another, and although police have not released any details of the cause of death, it was clear they had been murdered.

Abby and Libby’s deaths reverberated through the small town, because it was unlikely that anyone other than a local would have known about the track the girls were walking on that day."

I posted this on the last thread and also in the media thread on Nov 19th.

The fact they were side by side indicates to me they were placed there after death. MOO.

Moving bodies after death leaves forensic evidence in the body, so along with time of death the police will have been able to know whether they were moved and create a scenario of what happened.
MOO it was quick and I happen to believe that they were killed by blows to the head then strangled with something, and consequently, no DNA was left. He may have done something to pose them or have done nothing but throw leaves on them. MOO He then made an expeditious exit.

 

[Yemelyan]

BBM

As for restricting thinking, of course we need to restrict thinking somewhat--to what is supported by the evidence! That's the whole point of investigating a crime. It's called narrowing the focus. It's how crimes get solved. Wild conjecture and fantasy aren't helpful. Of course we don't know as much as LE, but we know quite a bit. We might not be able to rule out uncooperative witnesses (or even accessories after the fact), but we can absolutely rule out the possibility of a second perp.

Thank you @Ozoner!! I wish I could "like" this more than once. I'm all for speculation, but let it be based on known facts released by LE, not rumors started by blogs and youtubers or pure fantasy. Some of the things I read here are veering close to the "dog in his coat" territory from the early days of these threads and I'd hate for Abby and Libby's family to ever read some of this nonsense.

I used to think there was a possibility of two perps based on the language used by LE but now I'm thinking that they are just trying to be disciplined in what they say so that their words cannot be used against them by a defense attorney at trial. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

How would they have departed the scene?

How and when would the killer have returned?

How long would it take to move two bodies down to the final crime scene?

How much time would be involved in the entire endeavor?

Theoretically, they had the whole night as the girls were not found till the morning. And whoever the witnesses saw, no one has proved that it was the perpetrator

 

[zoricaj1]

the last couple of days i can't help but think it has to be someone very VERY close to the investigation....hiding in plain site...would make total sense....

 

[Ozoner]

the last couple of days i can't help but think it has to be someone very VERY close to the investigation....hiding in plain site...would make total sense....

That comment could just mean that BG is most likely a local and that the original sketch looked so unlike him that he probably considered himself safe and didn't bother to leave the area or even lay low.

 

[sunshineray]

I get that and agree, and in this day and age it would seem unheard of to not have DNA, so I guess my thought then is if DNA is able to rule people out or narrow in on people - with no arrest then maybe that means there is something "wrong" with the DNA that wouldn't allow it to hold up in court, hence the need for "that one tip." Either that, or perhaps the DNA allows them to identify a family but there is both a father and son that would "fit the bill" and thus far they have no way to discount one over the other.

I think it might be a combination of both. Trace DNA enough to lead to an area with multiple families with numerous males connected by that familial DNA.

 

[Charlot123]

I personally think we underestimate the younger generation. In many things they are more switched on than the older generation. I would argue that the older generation is careless with didgital footprints etc because the importance is a newish concept to us and are we are in the process of learning how importantant it is. Where as the younger generation were brought up with it and in many circumstances know more than we or should I say most of us do. Yes we are all experienced in life etc but there are so many things the younger generation is naturally more aware of than those older. Technology is one of them.

MingyMoo

This is not what I meant, but thank you for this post because it gives some food for thought.

Version A. He is a (budding) SK, from Delphi or not, and A@L are random victims. Then he probably left his cellphone...somewhere, far from the bridge, put on this masquerade attire, drove to Delphi and was walking around in anticipation of the meeting.

Version B. A@L were targeted. Then he probably arranged the meeting before, and did not take the phone with him - but as the girls’ trip was arranged at the last moment, he can not live too far from the bridge, can he?

Version C. About that Snapchat photo. If indeed he was attracted by it, he lives somewhere very close by, possibly in one of the houses above the bridge, as to see the photo...he either have to have the cellphone on him, but then there would be a digital trace of it being in the proximity of Libby’s one, or, he has to see the photo, get into the clothes, leave the phone at home and walk to the bridge. So, home is close.

MOO. I assume there is no digital trace, so to me it would appear, that either BG is totally random (I personally don’t believe it), or he lives very close to the bridge.

ETA: if they are concerned about the car parked at the CPS building, supposedly it was his car and he left the phone in the car, it should still have pinged somewhere close to the building? Or it could have been on him? If it was neither on him nor in the car, it might by itself be suspicious as who is driving without cellphones these days? If only for GPS...

 

[TheVisual]

BBM



Thank you @Ozoner!! I wish I could "like" this more than once. I'm all for speculation, but let it be based on known facts released by LE, not rumors started by blogs and youtubers or pure fantasy. Some of the things I read here are veering close to the "dog in his coat" territory from the early days of these threads and I'd hate for Abby and Libby's family to ever read some of this nonsense.

I used to think there was a possibility of two perps based on the language used by LE but now I'm thinking that they are just trying to be disciplined in what they say so that their words cannot be used against them by a defense attorney at trial. JMO.

And what makes you think that there couldn't be a dog in his jacket? He doesn't take his dog when he goes to kill? Want to bet on that?

 

[somequestions]

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As for restricting thinking, of course we need to restrict thinking somewhat--to what is supported by the evidence! That's the whole point of investigating a crime. It's called narrowing the focus. It's how crimes get solved. Wild conjecture and fantasy aren't helpful. Of course we don't know as much as LE, but we know quite a bit. We might not be able to rule out uncooperative witnesses (or even accessories after the fact), but we can absolutely rule out the possibility of a second perp.

The problem is that people believe in what they think. They engage in what I call the possibility complex.

An example would be me writing a theory that suggest the killer is a skier from Wyoming who used a puppy to lure the girls. I think he was wearing ski shoes and had on a ski hat and certain enhancements I have seen online suggest he may have had a puppy in his coat. <--I do not actually believe this theory. It is just an example.

Then when people reply to either disagree or tell me I am wrong I can respond, "But it is a possibility. How can you suggest it is not a possibility?" To a certain extent on such a forum people will engage in these types of discussions because they do not have the same information to work with as LE. I have put out wild speculative theories too.

It is the same thing with the opinion of the law enforcement investigation. LE has not found the suspect so now we go out on a huge tangent to suggest they know who it is that killed Abby and Libby, but are waiting to make an arrest because they do not have enough evidence?

Huh? What?

But it is a possibility, although in my opinion, not a very good one.

And that is how the possibility complex goes. After enough time passes, all you are left with are the many different possibilities. And the case fades away unresolved.

 

[Boxer]

If he was known to them they could have gone willingly, either on foot or in a vehicle. Take a look at the Etter thread to see how he did it. MOO.

That movement would show up forensically in the bodies if they were returned dead to the area.

If they were alive when he returned them, and then killed their time of death would not match their disappearance at 2:30-3:30.

 

[stattlich1]

Would any post that includes wording such as may, if, likely, might, possibly, maybe, or my opinion, would these not all indicate speculation and/or conjecture?

LE has indicated that only a wee bit of truth is out there, the picture they know, and the picture we see is vastly different.

One LE officer has indicated there to be a twist to the murders unlike ever seen in his career.

I don't think wild theories to be beneficial, however, it may just be that thinking outside the box could lead to the answer.

I really have trouble understanding how one can be so strict in denial of a possibility, any possibility, in this case, simply by virtue of LE having not indicated something as being fact, in particular, when LE HAS indicated the scope of what they know vastly exceeds what is known by the public.

Therefore, I remain steadfast in my belief that there is the possibility that there is more than one perp involved here.

carry on.

 

[somequestions]

Would any post that includes wording such as may, if, likely, might, possibly, maybe, or my opinion, would these not all indicate speculation and/or conjecture?

LE has indicated that only a wee bit of truth is out there, the picture they know, and the picture we see is vastly different.

One LE officer has indicated there to be a twist to the murders unlike ever seen in his career.

I don't think wild theories to be beneficial, however, it may just be that thinking outside the box could lead to the answer.

I really have trouble understanding how one can be so strict in denial of a possibility, any possibility, in this case, simply by virtue of LE having not indicated something as being fact, in particular, when LE HAS indicated the scope of what they know vastly exceeds what is known by the public.

Therefore, I remain steadfast in my belief that there is the possibility that there is more than one perp involved here.

carry on.

It is a possibility like a thousand others. It is ok to have an opinion that you believe in. That is why police ask for tips no matter how strange, unusual, or unlikely they may seem. It is about finding that one possibility that makes sense and solves the case.

 

[Yemelyan]

It is a possibility like a thousand others. It is ok to have an opinion that you believe in. That is why police ask for tips no matter how strange, unusual, or unlikely they may seem. It is about finding that one possibility that makes sense and solves the case.

Yes, nail on the head...finding a possibility that makes sense! I'm all for thinking outside the box IF what people are proposing go with what's known about the laws of physics, etc. I mean, it's been suggested that BG killed them on the bridge and then dragged them both across the creek to their final location. Or killed them in a shed and then transported/placed them in their final location. Can that possibly fit with what we know about the relative size of the victims and what LE says about the size of BG and what the family says about the all-night search that went on? To make it work you just have to keep inventing more and more convoluted scenarios (he had an inflatable raft, etc). It's just not helpful. Luckily many of the out-there theories come from just a couple of commenters and this site has an ignore function that works quite well.

 

[Evinrude]

Yes, nail on the head...finding a possibility that makes sense! I'm all for thinking outside the box IF what people are proposing go with what's known about the laws of physics, etc. I mean, it's been suggested that BG killed them on the bridge and then dragged them both across the creek to their final location. Or killed them in a shed and then transported/placed them in their final location. Can that possibly fit with what we know about the relative size of the victims and what LE says about the size of BG and what the family says about the all-night search that went on? To make it work you just have to keep inventing more and more convoluted scenarios (he had an inflatable raft, etc). It's just not helpful. Luckily many of the out-there theories come from just a couple of commenters and this site has an ignore function that works quite well.

Everyone see’s things a bit differently. LE wont divulge everything they know, and if LE knew everything, we’d most certainly have an arrest. Most people come on forums like this to read other peoples thoughts/ideas or to possibly catch up on confirmed Information.
Some folk have crazy ideas, others just go off of what they have heard via LE. Its all good. I appreciate the thinking mind and creative thinking. I sincerely hope they bring justice to the perp(s) very soon.