Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

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We don't know how the first sketch was generated.
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It could be a sketch of someone seen interacting with minors in an inappropriate way, possibly on other dates or in other locations around Delphi.
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It may have been an artist's attempt to draw a sketch based on the video (although to believe that you'd have to believe that LE lied when they said that the sketches depicted two different people).
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It may simply be that the old sketch depicts someone seen on the trail who was not connected to the crime but who did not come forward, either because he feared being railroaded or because he was passing through and didn't know that he was being sought.
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LE stated at the April press conference that the man in the OBG sketch is no longer a person of interest.

If I remember correctly, when the old sketch came out LE said it was a compilation of imput from several witnesses who claimed to see BG at the trails that day. These witnesses had worked with the sketch artist over a number of weeks to try and get it right. LE also said the witnesses had seen the guy throughout the day.
I think, with where we are now with the case, the old sketch and any thing related to it can just be thrown in a deep hole and buried.
 
I didn’t know a vehicle was taken?? I never heard anything about that.
but if it’s not related to the case then the vehicle must have had a title, insurance, registration, stolen etc issue that popped up while LE had a warrant to gather items. Maybe someone else can explain it better than me as I haven’t had my coffee yet lol.

The only vehicle that I know of that was "taken away" was RL's. A white truck.
 
If you read the transcript of the 4/22 presser, Carter says "During the course of this investigation we have concluded the first sketch released will become secondary"

Also this.....

On Wednesday, police emphasized that a new sketch of a suspect’s face is not supposed to be a different take on a composite sketch of a heavier, older-looking man. They are, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley, not the same person.
Riley also said Wednesday that the original sketch – released in the summer of 2017, showing a man with a goatee and a driving cap – is “not presently a person of interest in this investigation.
Delphi murders: New suspect sketch not same man as in old sketch, ISP clarifies

This sounds like it could support what Jim Clemente said, about the arrest of the sexual predator a few days before the PC who was on the trails but cleared.

Reference:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117
 
This sounds like it could support what Jim Clemente said, about the arrest of the sexual predator a few days before the PC who was on the trails but cleared.

Reference:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

Yes, it's my opinion Sketch 1 guy is ruled out as a result of some information that had come to light for LE, and it is my strong belief that concentration on identification of Sketch 2 guy, and the driver of that car that was at the now demolished CPS building, is what LE is asking for.

Also, I'd throw out there that if the first phase of this investigation lasted 2 years, then we could easily be looking at 2 years from the 4/22 presser, hence the request of LE to be patient, and that "we are just beginning".
 
I remember an open shed with a bouquet of flowers at a certain place after the murder and I'm 100% certain, there is a meaning to it, even if we don't know yet. MOO

Ohhhh I forgot about this...flowers and the shed...

Going to google old posts in here to see what reference I can find on that.

I don' know if this is what you're looking for but I found 3 posts that discuss flowers at a barn:

IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106

IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #106
 

Thank you, good finds.

I do recall some additional discussion earlier on as well. It seems there are some TOS considerations while approaching this, don’t think I’ll touch that one with a ten foot pole if there is no MSM confirmation.
 
Thank you, good finds.

I do recall some additional discussion earlier on as well. It seems there are some TOS considerations while approaching this, don’t think I’ll touch that one with a ten foot pole if there is no MSM confirmation.

I’m with you on that, margarita25.
I remember exactly where all that originated and we definitely don’t want to touch it.
RADIOACTIVE!
 
The shed pic I recall seeing (at least a year or more ago) included no flowers. It was like an angled birds eye view of the roof of a solitary shed/small outbuilding/or cabin surrounded by treetops in the general vicinity of the crime scene.
 
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Full disclosure: I haven't been to the bridge area, just the area around there, the roads around there and the cemetery. I'm a pretty big guy and thick-skinned to a degree, but walking to the bridge was not in FD's plan on that specific day, although I'd thought about it. People told me I shouldn't, too. People who have been to the bridge. Besides, I'm afraid of heights and just looking at that bridge kinda scares me.

As an avid outdoorsman and hiker, I think I can relate to what BG was looking for, with regards to terrain. If ever there was a spot along Deer Creek to force the girls to walk to and be killed, he found it. MOO is he had the crime scene scoped out well in advance, days, weeks (more likely), or even months. Not only does this guy hunt people, I think he's an avid outdoorsman/hunter and has powers of observation beyond most folks, per his background and maybe even how he's hard-wired in his mind.

He picked the perfect spot, in advance, he needed privacy like any killer that is similar in their MO that come to my mind. The flat-ish area across the creek from the CS would have been a bad choice. He needed a spot with no clear line-of-sight of much of anything, once I found out exactly where the bodies were found it made perfect sense to me why he picked it. it's in the gorge, it's secluded, there's no regular foot traffic through there to speak of (at least during that time of year), and the berms by the gravel pit and vegetation blocked the view from areas close by. Judging by videos and still shots I've seen, even from across the creek say 100 or so feet away there's a bit of an obscured view.

IK is one killer in recent years that fits a similar profile, most of his victims he found in wooded areas he knew well, in some cases very well, and he knew where he could tell his victims to go so he had the privacy he needed to rape, murder, torture, etc. The story of the couple he interacted with in a secluded area in a park in NH gives me chills, that post reminds me of this case. Creepy stuff:

AK, NY Israel Keyes - Who are all of his victims???

I think the actual crossing of the creek was done for a variety of reasons, some known only to the killer at this point. Some may be personal in nature, I often wonder about this. Crossing the creek to a place already picked out for murder is a new one to me, I've sleuthed hundreds of cases in this region of the country, going back roughly 40 years, and this one is truly "for the books". I don't recall any of those cases being like this one, and the crossing the creek part adds a certain element of weirdness and surprise for me.

Here's Falling Down's version of trying to get inside BG's state of mind, before the murders:

1. Scout out various locations to carry out my fantasy, maybe starting with online resources, forums, etc. Maybe one or more locations I'm already familiar with to some degree.
2. Learn everything I can about those locations, drive to them, walk them, time myself walking from point to point, etc. Maybe talk with some people, ask them questions about those locations.
3. People watch at those locations, use my powers of observation to see how people act, that sort of thing. Watch how people act towards me and interact with me, if that applies.
4. Watch YouTube videos of the areas by where I want to kill, if that applies. (There were YT videos taken on and by MHB in the months previous to the murders. I used one to figure out how to get there, when I drove to there in 2017. There is no indication a bridge is there via signage in the surrounding areas, you have to know how to get to Delphi, where to park, and where to walk. The sign along 300 is off the road and is not really an "official" municipal or government sign, not that I'm aware of at least. Before the murders, I'd imagine the vast majority of people who drive IN 25 regularly never knew the bridge is right near the highway, locals interviewed said they knew a bridge was there but didn't know how to get to it, and had never been to it.)
5. Practice, maybe many times in advance. Get a feel for the area, the people, the trail users, the gorge, etc.
8. Etc.

This was a well-planned attack, I'm not saying this guy's a genius or criminal mastermind, but I think some things in his background helped him carry out these attacks. I can map out things in my mind pretty well, I picture BG having similar abilities. I think he's terribly obsessive, maybe OCD, I can relate some in that regard (probably explains why I'm drawn to this case and other true crime stuff).

When I first mapped the area around that bridge, I made sure to put the distances in feet, especially the distances from the NW approach to the bridge to the CS, the bridge length, and the distance from the SE end to the CS. I'd bet good money he did the same before the murders, or at least knew the amount of time it took to walk those distances from point-to-point. I was surprised to learn the straight distance from the SE end of the bridge to the CS is roughly 550 feet. Media reports have said the bridge is around a half mile from the CS, from the NW end it's under 3/8 of a mile.

I think BG had this all figured out, and having obsessive issues, maybe even OCD, would have helped him plan and carry out his fantasy.

JMO
I agree about BG being a possible outdoorsman: hunter/fisherman/trapper, etc. Something that brought him not only to the woods, but to the creek itself, on a regular enough basis to know the surrounding terrain.

I don't necessarily think the murders had to be planned, however. The strange creek crossing decision seems to the contrary, IMO. I think, for whatever reason, when the opportunity presented itself, he knew the lay of the land well enough to quickly pick a spot, or he simply walked them until they were out of sight from the bridge. JMO

If he had planned to kill somebody by cornering them at the south end of the bridge, down the hill, and across the creek to the CS, than the one factor he couldn't control throughout the entire unfolding of events would be when somebody else might enter the scene. Why not get out of view immediately by taking them SW from the end of the bridge? There appears to be plenty of isolated locations in that direction. From the walk across the bridge, to the walk down the hill and through woods under the bridge, they could have been seen from on top of the bridge. It's risk-taking that in my mind seems more the doing of somebody acting on impulse. And somebody much more familiar with the creek vs. the woods SW of the bridge.

One more small piece that leads me away from a planned crime, is the fact that one of the girls' shoes was found by searchers. We don't know exactly where it was found, but we know it could be seen from the woods between the bridge and the house, somewhere around the creek. If BG planned the whole thing out, which included leaving the bodies in the same private location he killed them, why allow a shoe to lay in plain sight? Maybe an oversight, but that seems like a situation where things were happening quickly and with no apparent attempt at hiding evidence. IDK...just some random thoughts.
 
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Speaking of sheds, I recall seeing an aerial shot of the woods in vicinity of crime scene and there was shed kind of out in the middle of the woods (not seeming to be closely connected to any other buildings or houses around there). Anyone else recall this lone building?

Yes, I think I recall this! Iirc, @skibaboo even posted a map shot and circled it. I can see the picture in my head moo. It would have been in the early threads.

Perfect image of the area of the CS, with the "berm" as I call it, in the background.

rich-van-wyk-twitter-C4zPedmXUAAzn73.jpg

I was just staring at that last night, here is one source link for that photo, will bring forward some other images form that link:


“Libby also posted a black and white shot of the bridge on Snapchat”



A video found on Libby's phone showing 'Bridge Guy'


The girls were murdered in their hometown of Delphi, Indiana, in the American Midwest


Best friends Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, were murdered on February 13, 2017

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?
29 Sep 2019
 
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Also, if you look at the one pic of girl walking on the bridge, you will notice clouds in the sky, contrary to the photo with BG, there are none. Maybe camera angle but to me, it may have been some time between pics. Obviously LE knows what the time sequence of pics are but I just noticed this.
I've looked at differences in the sky, as well, trying to decipher if one was possibly taken on the way back across the bridge. However, one being black and white, and the other looking like some kind of filter was used, it's really hard to tell what's going on.
 

A video found on Libby's phone showing 'Bridge Guy'

The media really can be dreadful. When I clicked on the thumbnail it took me to a Sun article. This image is NOT from Libby's phone. This is from one of GH's videos and that's why you see the angular box around BG. I saw him doing it live. I posted LE's images earlier.
 
The media really can be dreadful. When I clicked on the thumbnail it took me to a Sun article. This image is NOT from Libby's phone. This is from one of GH's videos and that's why you see the angular box around BG. I saw him doing it live. I posted LE's images earlier.

I think it’s still a good image showing the reference, scale and distance though? It’s too bad they didn’t give @grayhuze credit for that image if they used it.

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This reminds me, quick note - I want to make, sometimes you’ll see me bringing forward over stuff that obviously has been posted a million times, images, quotes; I do that to make sure we keep everything fresh as details fade with time and get buried in all the discussions. Also, you will see this with quotes and links in the media thread. At this point it’s difficult to go through exactly what all quotes were posted when, so I’m keeping that thread flowing as well. My huge project “ to do” is to get a media article title timeline going in order to have quick reference for articles by date and title.

Here is an example of this from the Butler’s thread, all articles by date:
Media Timeline
James & Michelle Butler


Oct 25, 2019

Rumney couple on RV trip reported missing

Missing New Hampshire couple last seen at Padre Balli Park

Family and friends desperately searching for missing couple

Authorities put out missing alert for married couple

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Oct 28, 2019

Second body found as authorities search the 'Bowl' south of Bob Hall Pier

Kleberg deputies find possible body near Padre Balli Park

2 bodies found in Texas amid search for missing Rumney couple

Law enforcement investigating 2 bodies found in 'shallow grave' on Padre Island beach

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Oct 29, 2019

New Hampshire family of missing couple waits for answers

Sheriff's Office: 2 Bodies Discovered Buried At Texas Beach

Two bodies are found in hunt for missing New Hampshire couple who were last seen on Texas beach | Daily Mail Online

Family fears bodies found buried in Texas dune are missing NH couple

Family members remain hopeful missing couple still alive

Family fears bodies found buried in Texas dune are missing NH couple

Bodies in Texas may be NH couple

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Oct 30, 2019

Family Members Fear Bodies Found In Texas Belong To Missing NH Couple

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Oct 31, 2019

Two bodies found mysteriously buried together at beach. Family fears missing couple may be the victims [Reports]

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Nov 1, 2019

Remains found at local beach belong to missing couple

Bodies found on Texas beach identified as New Hampshire couple

Prayer vigil planned at beach for murdered couple

Missing NH Couple Confirmed Dead In Texas, Police Look For Killer

Remains found at Texas beach identified as missing couple

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Nov 2, 2019

Remains of New Hampshire couple found buried on Texas beach sparks homicide investigation

Missing NH Couple Confirmed Dead in TX; Deaths Ruled Homicides

New Hampshire couple who went missing while camping found buried on a Texas beach

2 bodies found at Texas beach are New Hampshire couple :: WRAL.com

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Nov 3, 2019

Vigil held for couple from Rumney found dead in Texas

Officials look for man seen driving vehicle belonging to NH couple killed in Texas

Remains Of US Veteran James Butler & Wife Michelle Found

Vigil planned for couple found dead at Texas beach

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Nov 4, 2019

Bodies buried on Texas beach belong to missing New Hampshire couple, police say

https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2019/11/02/bodies-buried-texas-beach-belong-missing-new-hampshire-couple-police-say/

Surveillance video offers clue after New Hampshire couple found dead on Texas beach

Missing campers James and Michelle Butler found dead

Photo Released Showing Persons Of Interest In NH Couple's Murder In Texas

New Hampshire Couple’s Adventure Ends in Mysterious Death in Texas

James, Michelle Butler: NH couple dead, persons of interest identified

Vigil held for couple found murdered in Texas

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Nov 5, 2019

Man sought for theft after allegedly fleeing to Mexico with slain couple's RV

Man Wanted In Connection With Killing Of NH Couple James And Michelle Butler

Man with Utah ties suspected in murders of couple found in shallow grave in Texas

2 Sought After NH Couple Found Dead in Texas

James & Michelle Butler: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

Rumney couple slain in Texas had been living an unconventional dream

Amanda Noverr: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

Arrest warrant issued in connection with New Hampshire couple found dead in Texas

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Nov 6, 2019

‘Armed And Dangerous’ Man Wanted In Connection With Killing Of Couple Found Buried On Texas Beach

Man wanted in connection with New Hampshire couple's deaths arrives in Kleberg County Jail

Man Arrested In Connection With Killing Of NH Couple James And Michelle Butler, Family Says

Texas authorities to speak Thursday about slayings of New Hampshire couple

Butler family confirms arrest of Adam Curtis Williams

Utah couple captured in Mexico; locals who knew them speak out

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Nov. 7, 2019

Texas authorities to speak Thursday about slayings of New Hampshire couple

Adam Williams, tied to James Butler, Michelle Butler deaths, caught

Williams in Kleberg Co. Jail, bond set for $1M

Person of interest in deaths of Rumney couple taken to Texas jail

Couple accused of stealing James & Michelle Butler's vehicle both charged with felony theft

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Nov. 8, 2019

Suspects Linked To Killing Of James And Michelle Butler Appear In Court

Couple facing charges in connection with the James & Michelle Butler homicide investigation make court appearances

Texas judge appoints attorneys for pair in connection to case of slain NH couple

Williams, Noverr appear in court for first time

Sister of NH man killed with spouse in Texas mourns the loss of couple

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Nov. 9, 2019

Friends of slain couple remember a much loved 'comedy team'


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Source:
TX - James & Michelle Butler, Padre Island, 14 Oct 2019, Media, Maps and Timelines *NO DISCUSSION*
 
As we don't know what evidence LE has, on what basis do you make this statement.

I'm not aware of anyone here suggesting that there was more than one killer, only that there may have been two people involved in the crime, the killer and perhaps someone who forced the girls down the hill and/or assisted him leaving the crime scene.
Early on in the investigation at a press conference, LE was asked if it was a lone killer or more than one. The LE officer stated that they were not ruling out the possibility that more than one person was involved. BUT they did not give a reason for that answer.
 
If I remember correctly, when the old sketch came out LE said it was a compilation of imput from several witnesses who claimed to see BG at the trails that day. These witnesses had worked with the sketch artist over a number of weeks to try and get it right. LE also said the witnesses had seen the guy throughout the day.
I think, with where we are now with the case, the old sketch and any thing related to it can just be thrown in a deep hole and buried.
Yes they did say that was a composite and the interview when it was released is in the media thread (Sgt Holeman). It was at least one witness and possibly more contributed to it. Also in a recent interview with Sgt Riley it seems that first sketch is still not to be forgotten. But I don't know what it means TBH.
 
rsbm
I think, with where we are now with the case, the old sketch and any thing related to it can just be thrown in a deep hole and buried.

I agree that the clear indication from LE is that they are focusing on BG2 as the primary, but imo, in consideration of all the different quotes from LE on the subject which indicates this sketch is not totally off the table...
 
I keep thinking about these 2 sketches. The second sketch was supposedly drawn within a week, possibly within just a couple of days, after the murders.

Then I go back to that interview or presentation at the 2018 CrimeCon as ISP 1st Sgt Holeman states how they arrived at the first sketch. He says they had 'several' sketches in the weeks after the murders. By 'several' I assume that means more than 2. He stated the process leading to the first sketch took months. He also stated that LE had to look at who was verified as being on the trails and possibly cleared in case one of them was being sketched. Case in point, he said one of the witnesses was later found to be describing Liberty's grandfather who was on the trail searching for them.

I believe that first sketch was - for lack of a better term - a product of a "witness committee". IOW, each witness describes a sketch and each is different. Then LE takes sketches from other witnesses and asks which is the closest. One witness may state certain aspects of another sketch should be included in theirs and another witness disagrees with those aspects and prefers a combination of another sketch and theirs. And so on, for months, as ISP indicated. What LE probably ended up with was a compromise among the witnesses. Just trying to read between the lines of what the 1st Sgt is talking about.
 
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