Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Itsapuzzle]

Looking through Trove with the search words "Le Courrier" and "phone", it's bringing up all the Les Petits Annonces consecutively ..... slowly working through them when I've got time ... but this just occurred to me ..... could Marion have placed an ad to meet someone overseas, h'mm, that's possible, isn't it ... not necessarily the Le Courrier Australien, maybe some other international paper, or even something web-based. Just something that suddenly crossed my mind ....

 

[poppypopcorn]

The point about "As far as I have heard, Marion was travelling on her own to Tunbridge Wells. She told Sally of some little old ladies she had met, but no mention at all of a travelling companion" is key for me and I've mentioned it before on this thread. It's a very odd choice of holiday location from a UK perspective. I did ask on the FB page if anyone knew whether there was a specific reason for choosing Sussex and no response.

Also to reiterate the work thing - Marion would not have had the right to work in the UK. No government funded school or registered private school would have employed her. She may have been able to pick up work as a private governess but this really isn't a "thing" here. Plausible cover story, but totally impractical in real terms. I'm also pretty sure that anyone in the teaching community in Aus would be aware that you can't just take yourself off to another country and start work.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Another question (sorry, full of them tonight)- Marion left her CV at her son in laws grandparents place, for Sally to send to her if she decided to teach while overseas- the kind of visa she left on did not permit her to work, so she couldn't take her CV with her. In the episode where Marion's initial employment at TSS was discussed, Carrie Allwood described Marion's references as excellent, and all written references. Does anyone know about the references? I wonder if she took those with her, as well. I think this is an additional reason why Marion chose to change her name to something completely out there, but to keep the "Marion" name in there. All her references were about Marion. Marion Brown, Marion Wilson, Marion Warren, Marion Barter- the surnames may change, but Marion is the constant. If Marion were planning to seek private teaching employment, with a wealthy family, or an alternate community, the name on the references could still match then name on the passport.

Good point! Keeping Marion somewhere in her name would allow her to use her written references. Nanny/au pair/home day care would be an informal way she could continue to work (here as well as overseas). I wonder if any cautious parents ever called the referees to check the validity of those written references??

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Here's the quote Sophie-Renee - click on the #687 and it should show the attached image.
"Check This Very Weird Find!
Was searching for info on Remakel in Luxembourg & found business permits for company named Fernand Nicolas Marie Ernest Remakel (image attached). Dates from 1975 & 1980, but the name is so eerily similar to the initials Marion chose. Could that possibly be just a coincidence? I think there has to be some connection.
Page 35/thread 1.
Meligator, Aug 8, 2019
#687
No, Fernand and Marie-Josee are not married. Fernand was born on 2 December 1947 - ooh, it's his birthday tomorrow, he'll be 72 - I think he was still with his first wife at that time, 75-80 he would have been 28 in 1975 and 33 in 1980 - his parents names are Ernest and Marie, still wondering if it's a family business, or he added his parents names to it. Has anyone found any proof that Marie Ernest are actually Fernand's names? I could only find his birth announcement as Fernand Nicolas Remakel. Probably neither here nor there, but would be interested to see some proof of that. The FNR initials are indeed curious, I agree, but what is lacking at this point is proof of anything, that's the problem.

Ahh my mistake, I forgot they weren't actually married. I knew he had been married previously but couldn't remember when. I think I am starting to lose the thread with some things. Where did the Ernest come from and the Nicholas as names of interest? I seem to remember it was something to do with Fenand's name and someone remarking on the parallels with that and the FNE in Marion's name change. So actually- the only things we get from the ad for sure is the key letter "F"- the rest of the letters we cannot then assume belong to this individual. On top of the fact, it is no neccessarily his real name. All very confusing!

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Grrr, edited my post but forgot to copy first!

Searching ancestry from a different angle- Remakel appears not only as a surname, but as a Christian/middle name. So if there is a connection between an actual person and Marion, the Remakel part of their name might not be their surname. They may, for example, have been given their mothers maiden name as their first or second name. There was a search done of passports coming into and out of the country with the surname Remakel, but would it come up if it was part of their Christian/middle name? What about if it is not someone travelling in and out? Someone born here, of Luxembourgish descent, who has Remakel as part of their name, but not their surname? The person who placed the ad in le courier could have been placing a dodge ad using the name of someone from home they didn't like- as a code for "its time to rob the bank", or anything. If I was in Lennox Head, looking for love, I don't know that I would place a lonely hearts ad in a French newspaper predominantly distributed in Sydney.

Something I have also noticed is on ancestry, when it comes to European countries or countries more likely to speak French, Remacle seems to be most popular and REMAKEL appears much more in the US. Could this Remakel come from the US and be of French descent? (It is almost as if it was REMACLE and then the Americans changed the spelling, when the Europeans came over!) Or indeed a completely different name. But, I wonder if the surname is actually spelled "Remacle" and when the ad was placed it went in as Remakel due to a miscommunication. I know the newspaper is French and would surely pick up and understand the spelling out of a name if needed, but maybe they didn't do it phonetically and somehow it went in as the Remakel instead of Remacle. The dodge ad is interesting and kind of linked to the idea is the possibility that Remakel is an anagram of something else- whether a name or a word.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Sally kindly responded to the questions I sent through (thanks for the suggestion SunnyNZ!). I didn't think to ask if it was ok to copy the response to here - I feel like I should ask before attaching a screenshot??

Sally isnt sure how fluent Marion's French is but commented that she could get by. So it is unconfirmed whether Marion could read in French. There seem to be lots of retold stories of Marion singing/speaking in French and dressing up with a beret but nothing of her reading French (ie story book with class).

Sally doesnt think Marion was a union member and doesnt remember if Marion told her family of her actual departure date in advance.

Sally also said theres nothing to suggest Marion had a redirection set up w Australia post. The redirection was hand written on a few things and Medicare bills were c/o Lesley. This was new information for me! From the podcast I had assumed there was more mail going to Lesley (ie bank statements), but this suggests not. Marion must have set up a Po Box

Sally thinks Marion may have used Kent removals (based on the truck) but doesnt remember the packing boxes.

Marion spoke of her return. She talked of buying a unit at main beach when she came back.

 

[Kelliepat]

..Just another thought..can we be sure that Marion had no links with or made any connection with the US or spoke of anyone in the US?I took a little search via ancestry and a definite coincidental name came up, with records fitting with Marion's timeline. For example- their marriage is dated 6 months before the La Courrier ad and their divorce is dated 5 days before Marion's name change. Their age is one year below F. Remakel's. Obviously I don't want to go into specifics, it' wouldn't be fair, in same way as Fernand -but wonder if these finds warrant more consideration.

Sally lived with Marion in 94/95 and Marion was definitely not married .

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Sally kindly responded to the questions I sent through (thanks for the suggestion SunnyNZ!). I didn't think to ask if it was ok to copy the response to here - I feel like I should ask before attaching a screenshot??

Sally isnt sure how fluent Marion's French is but commented that she could get by. So it is unconfirmed whether Marion could read in French. There seem to be lots of retold stories of Marion singing/speaking in French and dressing up with a beret but nothing of her reading French (ie story book with class).

Sally doesnt think Marion was a union member and doesnt remember if Marion told her family of her actual departure date in advance.

Sally also said theres nothing to suggest Marion had a redirection set up w Australia post. The redirection was hand written on a few things and Medicare bills were c/o Lesley. This was new information for me! From the podcast I had assumed there was more mail going to Lesley (ie bank statements), but this suggests not. Marion must have set up a Po Box

Sally thinks Marion may have used Kent removals (based on the truck) but doesnt remember the packing boxes.

Marion spoke of her return. She talked of buying a unit at main beach when she came back.

Thanks for putting up that information Intrigued, and very nice of Sally to answer all your questions, most excellent. Interesting about the handwritten mail redirection on the envelopes. So, would that mean Marion left a forwarding address of Lesley's with the new tenants/real estate agent .... we know that she put Lesley's address for the teachers renewal, but handwritten redirection on the envelopes is interesting. Ah, Kent Removals, that shouldn't be too hard to track down .....
Spontaneous random thought .... I wonder if a search in the newspapers, websites, has been done for Marion's old phone number, it might pop up somewhere, just a thought.

 

[KiwiNZ]

possible another red heron but I noticed that on the same day as the "Remakel" ad, a Marie had also placed an ad looking for a companion. It would make sense that they may contact each other, they sound like a match on paper. Having trouble locating the name LLimos in France, I think its a Spanish name.

FRENCH, 50 years old, blonde-eyed
blue, 1.52 m slim, youthful look,
loving healthy and simple life, seeks,
sober man speaking French even
Interests. Write to Marie LLIMOS, 221
Wallace-St-Pierre Fountains, 84500
Fix this text
BOLLENE, France.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

possible another red heron but I noticed that on the same day as the "Remakel" ad, a Marie had also placed an ad looking for a companion. It would make sense that they may contact each other, they sound like a match on paper. Having trouble locating the name LLimos in France, I think its a Spanish name.

FRENCH, 50 years old, blonde-eyed
blue, 1.52 m slim, youthful look,
loving healthy and simple life, seeks,
sober man speaking French even
Interests. Write to Marie LLIMOS, 221
Wallace-St-Pierre Fountains, 84500
Fix this text
BOLLENE, France.

Yes KiwiNZ, maybe they did correspond. I just had a streetView look at that Bollene address, just being a sticky-beak .... h'mm, narrow road .... but wait, what I was going to say is I'm noticing in quite a few of these ads the address given is the Le courrier address for the correspondence, and that "they will transmit" it on, so it must have been either a free/or paid service they offered to accept and forward the mail. So it's interesting this mystery Monsieur Remakel opted for the Lennox Head PO, etc ....

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes KiwiNZ, maybe they did correspond. I just had a streetView look at that Bollene address, just being a sticky-beak .... h'mm, narrow road .... but wait, what I was going to say is I'm noticing in quite a few of these ads the address given is the Le courrier address for the correspondence, and that "they will transmit" it on, so it must have been either a free/or paid service they offered to accept and forward the mail. So it's interesting this mystery Monsieur Remakel opted for the Lennox Head PO, etc ....

long shot but I was trying to see if this could possible be the Marie he is now with ?

 

[sunnynz]

long shot but I was trying to see if this could possible be the Marie he is now with ?

oooh interesting rabbit hole!

 

[sunnynz]

Did anyone else on here follow the FLEK/Lori Ruff case? For that case we had some additional separate threads set up to house key info/clues that needed to be frequently referred back to. Things like timelines, photos, copies of documents, etc. You couldn't comment on them, it was just a repository to house info so it didn't get lost in the discussion threads.

Marion's case feels so similar, does anyone else think it would be beneficial to have something like this? If so, do we know how to go about getting permission to set this up?

 

[thunderwombat]

Did anyone else on here follow the FLEK/Lori Ruff case?

That and the Joseph Newton Chandler case are fascinating to me. I'm still amazed that they have been solved.

In 1997 it wasn't hard to get birth certificates, in my state anyway. A printed form from the post office filled with the name of the person, year of event, registration number, declare that it was for family history research purposes, and an official certificate would be sent. Many local libraries had a genealogy section which had cd-roms with indexes of births deaths and marriages. If a person did want to take on a new identity it would not be a difficult matter to use the death index to find someone who had died as a baby, then buy that person's birth certificate and use it for yourself. Impossible these days, you have to provide proof of who you are and why you want it.

Didn't Marion, or Florabella, give two different birth dates to bank officials? I heard or read that somewhere but can't remember where. My first thought was that she had given the birth date of a different person whose identity she was using. Finding a birth certificate from the year you were born would be no problem but getting the exact date of birth near impossible.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

possible another red heron but I noticed that on the same day as the "Remakel" ad, a Marie had also placed an ad looking for a companion. It would make sense that they may contact each other, they sound like a match on paper. Having trouble locating the name LLimos in France, I think its a Spanish name.

FRENCH, 50 years old, blonde-eyed
blue, 1.52 m slim, youthful look,
loving healthy and simple life, seeks,
sober man speaking French even
Interests. Write to Marie LLIMOS, 221
Wallace-St-Pierre Fountains, 84500
Fix this text
BOLLENE, France.

I assume you mean an ad also in La Courrier? I just wondered because all I have seen is a picture of the ad that F. Remakel posted. Did you manage to access an archive for that issue online? It would be interesting to see. The name Marie is also very like Marion. Intersting the name Marie keeps popping up.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Apologies. I just seen the original posting by Itsapuzzle in May. I never realised someone had managed to find a copy of this before the Remakel thing was even discussed. Great sleuthing, Itsapuzzle!

 

[sunnynz]

Did anyone else on here follow the FLEK/Lori Ruff case? For that case we had some additional separate threads set up to house key info/clues that needed to be frequently referred back to. Things like timelines, photos, copies of documents, etc. You couldn't comment on them, it was just a repository to house info so it didn't get lost in the discussion threads.

Marion's case feels so similar, does anyone else think it would be beneficial to have something like this? If so, do we know how to go about getting permission to set this up?

Reported my post to admin to get an answer on this.

 

[thunderwombat]

The name Marie is also very like Marion. Intersting the name Marie keeps popping up.

In Europe, especially Catholic countries, many families will name a daughter after the virgin Mary. Variations on the name are Marie/Maria/Marina/Mia/Marianne and several more. Very traditional families will give all of the daughters the first name Marie but the girls will go by their second given name, Anne, Louise etc. Both my grandmothers were Marie, several aunts and cousins are also, with it either a first or middle name, many add it as a confirmation name as well.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I assume you mean an ad also in La Courrier? I just wondered because all I have seen is a picture of the ad that F. Remakel posted. Did you manage to access an archive for that issue online? It would be interesting to see. The name Marie is also very like Marion. Intersting the name Marie keeps popping up.

yes this advert for companionship was the only other advert on that day next to the Remakel ad. You can access the advert via trove.nla.gov.au and do a search on Remakel

 

[Mel 1303]

Did anyone else on here follow the FLEK/Lori Ruff case? For that case we had some additional separate threads set up to house key info/clues that needed to be frequently referred back to. Things like timelines, photos, copies of documents, etc. You couldn't comment on them, it was just a repository to house info so it didn't get lost in the discussion threads.

Marion's case feels so similar, does anyone else think it would be beneficial to have something like this? If so, do we know how to go about getting permission to set this up?

I followed that on closely. If Lori hadn't kept the lock box, no one would have ever identified her, in my opinion. Certainly, she wouldn't have been identified by anyone looking from the life she left behind- the clues were with the new identity.