Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Sophie-Renee]

The unfortunate thing is, the possible other party to this could have come from Luxembourg, Marion's reentry cards reads she will be going on to Luxembourg and is from there but , we don't have any proof she ever has been as it never left Australia afterwards.

But their help is really needed when it comes to another's involement. Did someone in Luxembourg change their name to Remakel , then head to the UK? Can UK police check flight records for ALL Remakels travelling to or from UK at the same time as Marion? It would seem, all they have done is locate her name change and can see it is her because other names known as comes up.

What are the ingoing / outgoing movements to for the surname Remakel between June and let's say September 1997 in BOTH Luxembourg and the UK? Why is it just the Australian police on this? Or are we to assume they are in communication with law enforcement in these countries also, it's just information on this is not yet available?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The unfortunate thing is, the possible other party to this could have come from Luxembourg, Marion's reentry cards reads she will be going on to Luxembourg and is from there but , we don't have any proof she ever has been as it never left Australia afterwards.

But the help of Luxembourg police is really needed when it comes to another's involvement. Did someone in Luxembourg change their name to Remakel , then head to the UK? Can UK police also check flight records for ALL Remakels travelling to or from UK at the same time as Marion? It would seem, all they have done is locate her name change and can see it is her because other names known as comes up.

What are the ingoing / outgoing movements for the surname Remakel between June and let's say September 1997 in BOTH these countries? Why is it just the Australian police on this? Or are we to assume they are in communication with law enforcement in these countries also, it's just information on this is not yet available?

 

[Sophie-Renee]

So sorry earlier for the triple posting. I don't know what happened, but seems there is no delete button for it either! As a matter of interest, during sleuthing has anyone come across a Fritz Remackel (slightly different spelling I know). He seems to be from Luxembourg and has actually been President of some non profit charity at one point and is a few years younger - 64- than M.F Remakel would be now.

He has actually spoken on a player fm podcast about something, I can't make head nor tail of as it is in French. Aswell as being interviewed in a newspaper for his work I think. Seems he is quite the intellectual..probably nothing in it, but thought I would put some links here incase anyone can actually understand it and is fluent in French of Luxembourgish- whichever it is!

Actually looks like the article is in German- but he IS from Luxembourg.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

Fritz Remackel Invité Vum Dag podcast

 

[Sparkles5777]

The unfortunate thing is, the possible other party to this could have come from Luxembourg, Marion's reentry cards reads she will be going on to Luxembourg and is from there but , we don't have any proof she ever has been as it never left Australia afterwards.

But their help is really needed when it comes to another's involement. Did someone in Luxembourg change their name to Remakel , then head to the UK? Can UK police check flight records for ALL Remakels travelling to or from UK at the same time as Marion? It would seem, all they have done is locate her name change and can see it is her because other names known as comes up.

What are the ingoing / outgoing movements to for the surname Remakel between June and let's say September 1997 in BOTH Luxembourg and the UK? Why is it just the Australian police on this? Or are we to assume they are in communication with law enforcement in these countries also, it's just information on this is not yet available?

I think this is because, in part, as far as the Australian police are concerned, there is no Luxembourg connection. Marion has never mentioned (that we know of anyway) having any friends/family/romantic interests there. She never mentioned the add. Nor does it appear that Mr Remarkle or anyone with that surname ever came to Australia. It does not appear that she even left the UK during her holiday. She then returned to Australia and was ID'd at the bank and used Medicare cards here and her passport never left. The only Luxembourg connection we have really is the incomming passenger card which as we know, every part she filled in seemed to be a lie plus the add which I thinks really a stretch anyways. As far as the police are concerned they focused their investigation in Australia which is where she was last tracked to be. Personally I believe Mr Remakel has nothing to do with this and the focus of the podcast should be on Marions last known whereabouts in Australia like the areas where her Medicare card was used.

 

[Sparkles5777]

I am one of the minority who does not want to see a positive result at the NCAT hearing. The coroner is reviewing the case, to see if an inquest should be held. In the meantime, two separate police investigations, both of which were fairly thorough if you pick through the details in the podcast, found her to have chosen to walk away from her life. There is no crime in going missing. Marion has broken no law. According to the law, if she walks away, and states to a person in authority that they are doing this of there own accord, then any other information should be withheld. I would like to see Marion's rights considered here as well- let see what the coroner has to say. If the coroner determines that an inquest is justified, then that is a different story.

I am concerned about the precedent being sent. What if the next podcast features a daughter/son/partner/parent who besides the scenes is a manipulative narcissist who was the one who left the missing person feeling they had no choice but to disappear? Of if there is domestic violence, and a podcast can whip up enough of a frenzy to deliver the victim right back to their abuser? On the podcast, there have been continual references to NSW police not following their own protocols, even though they actually are according to NSW law. One look at TLV facebook post about the police, and there certainly is a frenzy amongst people who just lap up things that are said, even if the facts behind the statement have been bent somewhat to fit a narrative.

I agree 100% on this!! Marion also has a right to privacy and I feel pretty uncomfortable about the ethics of a podcast wanting to dive into every single detail of her whole life. I understand focusing on say, her interactuons in the last year prior to her disappearance, but it just seems all so murky.

 

[Jo3]

Looking through Trove with the search words "Le Courrier" and "phone", it's bringing up all the Les Petits Annonces consecutively ..... slowly working through them when I've got time ... but this just occurred to me ..... could Marion have placed an ad to meet someone overseas, h'mm, that's possible, isn't it ... not necessarily the Le Courrier Australien, maybe some other international paper, or even something web-based. Just something that suddenly crossed my mind ....

Well thought out, I admire your logic. Of course she could have placed a lonely heart ad, she was looking for love! Why wouldn’t she advertise. A ‘Remakel’ could have responded, maybe living in Sussex.
Embarrassed to tell family, thought they may dissuade her from meeting him.
Maybe we should be looking for a Remakel in the UK?
Any luck finding an Ad that could have been placed by Marion?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Well thought out, I admire your logic. Of course she could have placed a lonely heart ad, she was looking for love! Why wouldn’t she advertise. A ‘Remakel’ could have responded, maybe living in Sussex.
Embarrassed to tell family, thought they may dissuade her from meeting him.
Maybe we should be looking for a Remakel in the UK?
Any luck finding an Ad that could have been placed by Marion?

Slight hitch there .... I don't know Marion's Ashmore phone number, was just putting the idea out there that she may have placed an ad or something ... I'm in Melbourne, so can't check out the old Qld phone books, drats ... ooooh, any sleuths out there able to have a look at an old Southport phone book from '96/97? Marion's number would probably be in it ... be great if we could get that, might lead to something in the searches
Yes, a UK Remakel search, good idea Jo3.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Well thought out, I admire your logic. Of course she could have placed a lonely heart ad, she was looking for love! Why wouldn’t she advertise. A ‘Remakel’ could have responded, maybe living in Sussex.
Embarrassed to tell family, thought they may dissuade her from meeting him.
Maybe we should be looking for a Remakel in the UK?
Any luck finding an Ad that could have been placed by Marion?

searched high and low in the UK for Remakel but can only locate them in USA and lux. Not sure if anyone eles has had success

 

[Mel 1303]

The unfortunate thing is, the possible other party to this could have come from Luxembourg, Marion's reentry cards reads she will be going on to Luxembourg and is from there but , we don't have any proof she ever has been as it never left Australia afterwards.

But the help of Luxembourg police is really needed when it comes to another's involvement. Did someone in Luxembourg change their name to Remakel , then head to the UK? Can UK police also check flight records for ALL Remakels travelling to or from UK at the same time as Marion? It would seem, all they have done is locate her name change and can see it is her because other names known as comes up.

What are the ingoing / outgoing movements for the surname Remakel between June and let's say September 1997 in BOTH these countries? Why is it just the Australian police on this? Or are we to assume they are in communication with law enforcement in these countries also, it's just information on this is not yet available?

The reason the other police forces have not been involved is that following both Australian investigations, Marion was deemed to have left of her own accord, and had expressed to a person in authority that she did not want contact with her family. Thus, she was deemed located. To continue to investigate her comings and goings would have been illegal, and a complete breach of Marion's rights.

For all we know, the police may well have investigated the outgoing and incoming passenger lists during their initial investigations. We do know that the original investigation, following Sally's report to Graeme Childs, was the investigation that uncovered the fact that she had an account at the Colonial Bank in Ashmore, QLD- unknown to her family. It was through this bank that she was identified- withdrawing the balance of her account on 15 October (could have been $25, could have been $500000- we have no idea), with further information obtained later via a phone call - so at the very least, the bank had contact details. Beyond the fact that she had been identified, and that she wanted no contact, no one was entitled to any further information. The original police investigation slipped something they shouldn't have- they advised Jack Wilson that if he wanted further information, he should hire a private detective and start in Byron Bay. Garry Sheehan, years later during the second investigation, told Sally another bunch of information (such as the name change) that she also wasn't entitled to- I think he was trying to give her some idea of why he was concluding that this was Marion's choice. Garry Sheehan did tell us that no one with the name Remakel has entered or left since Marions passport came back in.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Spontaneous ..... been looking around for the name Florabella, it seems to come up quite a bit in the Philippines, could Marion have met someone from there? Does it come up much in the ancestry sites, the name Florabella and Natalia? I don't have access to that. Still looking around ....

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The reason the other police forces have not been involved is that following both Australian investigations, Marion was deemed to have left of her own accord, and had expressed to a person in authority that she did not want contact with her family. Thus, she was deemed located. To continue to investigate her comings and goings would have been illegal, and a complete breach of Marion's rights.

For all we know, the police may well have investigated the outgoing and incoming passenger lists during their initial investigations. We do know that the original investigation, following Sally's report to Graeme Childs, was the investigation that uncovered the fact that she had an account at the Colonial Bank in Ashmore, QLD- unknown to her family. It was through this bank that she was identified- withdrawing the balance of her account on 15 October (could have been $25, could have been $500000- we have no idea), with further information obtained later via a phone call - so at the very least, the bank had contact details. Beyond the fact that she had been identified, and that she wanted no contact, no one was entitled to any further information. The original police investigation slipped something they shouldn't have- they advised Jack Wilson that if he wanted further information, he should hire a private detective and start in Byron Bay. Garry Sheehan, years later during the second investigation, told Sally another bunch of information (such as the name change) that she also wasn't entitled to- I think he was trying to give her some idea of why he was concluding that this was Marion's choice. Garry Sheehan did tell us that no one with the name Remakel has entered or left since Marions passport came back in.

Yes exactly.

The actions of the police show just how much they felt for the position Marion's family was in - and also how clear it was (from a police perspective) that Marion's disappearance was of her choice.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Spontaneous ..... been looking around for the name Florabella, it seems to come up quite a bit in the Philippines, could Marion have met someone from there? Does it come up much in the ancestry sites, the name Florabella and Natalia? I don't have access to that. Still looking around ....

Nothing of interest on the ancestry sites for Aus or the UK for Florabella

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Spontaneous ..... been looking around for the name Florabella, it seems to come up quite a bit in the Philippines, could Marion have met someone from there? Does it come up much in the ancestry sites, the name Florabella and Natalia? I don't have access to that. Still looking around ....

Personally, I can't get over this discovery from way back... Marion's love of china (check), Marion's love of floral motifs (check), a reference to Luxembourg (check), a reference to Flora Bella (check).

Sometimes I think she left us a trail of breadcrumbs, just in case something went wrong

I wonder if she owned china from this range? Was she already under pressure to change her name to THOSE initials, and found the perfect F name while she was packing up her belongings?

Or did SHE choose to change her name to THOSE initials so we would know who was responsible if things turned awry?

Florabella, together with 'Natalia', a character from Murder on the Orient Express (Marion's plan to go on the Orient Express, check) is just too much. Did she leave the clues because she was afraid of being murdered? Was she given the choice to live if she returned to Australia and hid forever, even from her family?

Gah! Baffling.

If this wasn't real life and so devastating, it would make a brilliant whodunnit book.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

searched high and low in the UK for Remakel but can only locate them in USA and lux. Not sure if anyone eles has had success

Quite a few months back I found a F Remakel in an old newspaper article in Germany playing sport (not Fernand), and I found an older Ferdinand Remakel in a photo in a nursing home in Luxembourg area, in a newspaper article .... also found a Florabella working in NSW I think it was in a childcare/minding place ..... thought I got lucky, but it wasn't Marion. I reckon there's quite a few F Remakels out there, yep, not everyone can be found on the internet. Still looking ........

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Quite a few months back I found a F Remakel in an old newspaper article in Germany playing sport (not Fernand), and I found an older Ferdinand Remakel in a photo in a nursing home in Luxembourg area, in a newspaper article .... also found a Florabella working in NSW I think it was in a childcare/minding place ..... thought I got lucky, but it wasn't Marion. I reckon there's quite a few F Remakels out there, yep, not everyone can be found on the internet. Still looking ........

So true! There may be Remakels in Australia too. If they had permanent residency but hadnt applied for citzenship they wouldnt be on the electoral roll and if they had a private/silent number they wouldnt be in the phone book.

 

[Garyb]

That is a very good point. The problem is so many theories and possibilities and no way yet of actually having any hard evidence either way. Sometimes you see something and maybe read more into it than is really there. One thing I have mentioned before was the name "Remakel" although being seen as rare- it only is considering it with the assumption the man is from a European country. It seems bar Ferdinand extremely few Remakels exist and practically none besides him with the initial F. If there was a possibility he spoke French, but was actually from the US- then there are loads.

Remacle or Remackel seem to be a lot more common in Europe . Which is why I wondered if there has been a mis spelling of the name given at the time , by La Courier. Even then however, there seems to be barely anyone with the intial F as a first name. Oftentimes, F is appearing on people searches and through ancestry as a middle name initial. Has it been mostly accepted that the M is definitely for Monsieur? The Monsieur appears at the top of the ad, so we know from the start it is Mr. Would he neccessarily have put M for it at the end? Sometimes in letters and such in newspapers by readers, they don't bother putting Mr or Mrs. They may put their full name or initials and surname- depends on the person, I suppose. Like a signature - J. Doe for Jane or John Doe, would you neccessarily write Mr or Mrs? He may have signed the ad like this, but so as to keep some privacy not put the full names...anyone else think this is a possibility? Maybe just my musings..

As i understand the claim by the podcast that there is only one F Ramakels is misleading apparently they only searched facebook.

 

[Garyb]

Just had a final thought to this..if "F. Remakel" is linked to Marion's disappearance- there can't have been a misprint because she herself would have rectified the misspelling in the name change. So I have kind of answered my own question- Remakel is likely the right spelling after all.
On another note- probably just another dead end but, there happens to be a short street called Florabella Street, in Warimoo just beyond Penrith outside of Sydney. I know this may be a fair distance from the Lennox Head area- it is not a long street and is home to Warimoo Public School. I don't know what that might mean other than she took the name from that street. But the fact the school is on that street and Marion is a teacher- did she have any connections out that way, worked there before? It is also just around the corner form the Hall of Jehovah's witnesses...who knows what that could mean either. I realise there are a great many Jehovah's witness halls in Australia, made me think this may be the faith or following of someone she was involved with.

She taught in the blue mountains near there.

 

[Garyb]

I've got a Geneanet sub, modern day Remakels are mostly in USA. I tried findmypast before my sub ran out, nothing of interest, no Lux records. Same with familysearch & newspapers.com, mostly USA. The only F R that fits are the ones mentioned by Sophie-Renee above. I'll give the National Library newspaper resource another go.

I've almost come to the conclusion, to use an appropriate Alfred Hitchcock-ism, that the Remakel surname is the Macguffin of the whole mystery. It's too close to "remake" to be a coincidence for my liking. But then what would I know I guess.

May be Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel stands for "Florabella born Marion remade" Natalia means born at christmas ie Nativity etc.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Slight hitch there .... I don't know Marion's Ashmore phone number, was just putting the idea out there that she may have placed an ad or something ... I'm in Melbourne, so can't check out the old Qld phone books, drats ... ooooh, any sleuths out there able to have a look at an old Southport phone book from '96/97? Marion's number would probably be in it ... be great if we could get that, might lead to something in the searches
Yes, a UK Remakel search, good idea Jo3.

I am in the UK myself and seem to recall doing a Remakel search at some point. Certainly found nothing via ancestry though on that sometimes it seems no records of people show at all until they die. But I will see if I can do a search elsewhere again using different spellings.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

As i understand the claim by the podcast that there is only one F Ramakels is misleading apparently they only searched facebook.

Yes that isn't exactly reliable. I certainly found an F. Remackel. Admittedly not found any other Fs with the Remakel spelling except for 2 in the USA. I seen on reddit somewhere Sally maintain although rare, that the remakel surname is most popular in whole world in Luxembourg and how would her mum have known that with no internet in those days?
But it's really not. There are tons and tons in the USA. They have the most. I have now read from reddit Marion had never set foot out of Australia at all before 1997. Sally's words. So fair enough she hadn't been to the USA. But nor had she been to Luxembourg. Neither has a remakel entered or left Australia since 1990. So this fernand really if he says he has never been to Australia or any other remakel for that matter.. The evidence supports this. It seems like it was possibly based on someone with the f Remakel name, but that f remakel himself, whoever he is and wherever he is has has no idea at all.