OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #52

[Ann99]

If I remember correctly, A Notarized document must have two witnesses that are not related to anyone in the document. Also a Notary may not act in the case of family. AI wonder who the witnesses were? I assume they have been contacted by LE.

You are correct - when it applies to wills - 2 witnesses not related

There is another point, mentioned in link above, that I question. point #16.
Something about a Notary not being able to act when there is a possible gain (Financial?) to the Notary or Notary Family.

Maybe someone who understands can comment.

 

[Ann99]

Delete duplicate

 

[Ann99]

This has nothing to do with the trials but I thought you all might find it as amusing as I did. I told you when I joined that I bought a horse from the W's years before all this happened. When I was there I took pictures and posted them on Facebook. This morning I woke up to a suggestion of a picture from there as a potential Christmas card pic.

Oh No! A Christmas Card suggestion from Facebook of W’s Horse Farm?
Facebook does that, but Facebook should mind its own business.
(Study the photo to see if there are any clues)

 

[Merrygirl]

But they had more than $100,000 in just vehicles, not including the four-wheelers, etc. How much would a DNA test have been? JMO

Those are possessions and they could never part with a prized possession. In fact, that may be the underlying reason for this tragic outcome. Their sense of priorities seems to be askew and they may not have thought about that being an option. I believe AW & JW were trying to avoid having to go to court for many reasons and thought it would be so much simpler to go to a lawyer and have him convince the judge. Little did they know it would cost so much—legally, financially, emotionally. It is my belief that is why the custody papers were forged and most likely backdated. My theory for the chosen date on the documents was that was around the time of the alleged family fight over custody. It would be easy to say HMR signed against her parents advice and she was not there to dispute it. I believe they thought, with her gone, no one would dispute it. Little did they know it may be the main proof of their dirty deeds. This is all JMOO.

 

[Merrygirl]

Couldn't G4 witness JW's and vice versa, then one boy forges the 2nd witness signature, and the other boy forges their grandmother's and uses her stamp?

Yes, they could but the forgery charges are on all four so all four had to sign at least once each.

 

[Justus Forall]

Anything I have had notarized only required the Notary and the people signing the paper. The Notary must witness the people sign the papers. The Notary's seal and signature are legal proof the papers were signed in the Notary's presence by the people named on the papers.

Agree with you D. I had to transfer a car title to someone out of state. The Notary notarized my signature on the document. It was just he and I in the office.

 

[IType]

Yes, they could but the forgery charges are on all four so all four had to sign at least once each.

Respectfully, just because all 4 of the W's are charged with forgery doesn't mean they're guilty of it. It's entirely possible that AW signed all of the names on all of the custody documents (HR, GW4, JW), then signed RN's name as the notary. If that is the case, then in theory, AW would be found guilty of forgery and BW (GW3), GW4 and JW would be found not guilty. AW could have forged her sons' signatures just as she did RN's and HR's.

IMO, all the same charges were filed in "blanket" fashion against each of the W4 for uniformity. This is pretty typical in criminal cases--throw the book at them, then through the trial phase the prosecution sees what charges they can make stick. Those that don't stick are either dropped by the prosecution or the defendant is found not guilty. JMO

 

[Merrygirl]

I wonder why Judge Deering did ask Gerlach why he need the grand jury information for, there is more to come from that attorney, JMO he is reporting to the Wagners defense team.

‘I thought the same thing but then I thought about what information she may contribute to the W4 cases. I would think if there is a chance she may be called to testify in court that he would be the one to guide & represent her to make sure she doesn’t say anything that may incur new charges against her. Therefore he may need to review. If I understand the prior pretrial hearings, he was only given written transcripts of her testimony regarding her charges. She may have said other things that, if brought up again, could backfire and incriminate her on either new charges OR on the dropped charges as those could be reintroduced. I also would not be surprised if he shared with the other defense teams.

 

[Merrygirl]

So now the dam has burst. The W 4 are sitting in jails, have access to tv and internet, and have perhaps seen today's hearing. Who does anyone think Rita's change of plea will be affected by the most. Little George? Ang? I'm thinking George.

If Ang is a true sociopath she won’t be deterred by what her mother said. Sociopaths are not concerned about the feelings of others. She may be angry but will quickly be thinking of another excuse or someone to blame. She is not concerned with how Ang’s actions affected her mother.

 

[rsd1200]

Yes, they could but the forgery charges are on all four so all four had to sign at least once each.

Good catch. totally forgot that. Thank you!

 

[eanspratt]

Yes, they could but the forgery charges are on all four so all four had to sign at least once each.

The prosecution still needs to prove that they all had a part in the forgery. It is not enough to say "they all had a part in it". If for instance you prove that 3 of them sighed a document but fail to offer proof to the jury regarding the 4th then the 4th would likely be found not guilty. Pls correct me if I'm incorrect.

 

[Ann99]

I’m wondering how broad or how narrow the legal definition of forgery may be.
Could any computer hacking and alteration of another’s FB page be considered forgery.

 

[Merrygirl]

Respectfully, just because all 4 of the W's are charged with forgery doesn't mean they're guilty of it. It's entirely possible that AW signed all of the names on all of the custody documents (HR, GW4, JW), then signed RN's name as the notary. If that is the case, then in theory, AW would be found guilty of forgery and BW (GW3), GW4 and JW would be found not guilty. AW could have forged her sons' signatures just as she did RN's and HR's.

IMO, all the same charges were filed in "blanket" fashion against each of the W4 for uniformity. This is pretty typical in criminal cases--throw the book at them, then through the trial phase the prosecution sees what charges they can make stick. Those that don't stick are either dropped by the prosecution or the defendant is found not guilty. JMO

I agree but respectfully disagree to a point. The document required a signature of the person giving the permission, 2 witnesses and RN’s signature (as notary)=4 signatures x4 documents. Assuming AW was one of the signators, that still leaves 3 other persons + HMR to replicate. It’s very difficult to replicate that many different signatory types and accurately match for 4 documents with only one person to have forged. In my line of work we compare signatures of Medicaid recipients on documents and find obvious flaws in the mannerisms of their signatures that are not carried through each document signature. For instance, one person may make rounded letters while another may make distinct straight line letters or add tails to certain letters. Usually the forger’s signature will contain some of these same elements. To replicate 3-4 people’s signature styles consistently on four different documents would be next to impossible. And if you had a signature from each and you traced it then that too is a red flag as no one’s signature looks EXACTLY the same on everything you sign. It’s the characteristics of the signatures that make them unique to that person.

Also, at least one of the documents (and perhaps all) had to have been submitted formally to the public as being a legal document (either to a court, a lawyer, an agency, etc)—it’s not considered a forgery if it has not been submitted as an authentic document. I do agree the forgery indictments could have been a blanketed charge as in “These are forged documents. Not sure who did it so all are charged until we figure out who did it.” My guess is it took more than 1-2 people to complete.

 

[Merrygirl]

I don't think it has ever been said why he was on SSI, but I don't think the acorn fell far from the tree in regards to Billy and Fred. Remember Fred was present for those revenge talks and apparently never turned a hair during them, Rita was not. I think Billy learned to be vengeful at his mother's knee.

JMO

‘Do we know for sure she was present or just that the conversation took place at her house?

 

[IType]

I agree but respectfully disagree to a point. The document required a signature of the person giving the permission, 2 witnesses and RN’s signature (as notary)=4 signatures x4 documents. Assuming AW was one of the signators, that still leaves 3 other persons + HMR to replicate. It’s very difficult to replicate that many different signatory types and accurately match for 4 documents with only one person to have forged. In my line of work we compare signatures of Medicaid recipients on documents and find obvious flaws in the mannerisms of their signatures that are not carried through each document signature. For instance, one person may make rounded letters while another may make distinct straight line letters or add tails to certain letters. Usually the forger’s signature will contain some of these same elements. To replicate 3-4 people’s signature styles consistently on four different documents would be next to impossible. And if you had a signature from each and you traced it then that too is a red flag as no one’s signature looks EXACTLY the same on everything you sign. It’s the characteristics of the signatures that make them unique to that person.

Also, at least one of the documents (and perhaps all) had to have been submitted formally to the public as being a legal document (either to a court, a lawyer, an agency, etc)—it’s not considered a forgery if it has not been submitted as an authentic document. I do agree the forgery indictments could have been a blanketed charge as in “These are forged documents. Not sure who did it so all are charged until we figure out who did it.” My guess is it took more than 1-2 people to complete.

I fully understand all the intricacies of handwriting characteristics and recognizing a forged signature. You understand them as well. That does not mean that AW understood it when the signatures were forged.

 

[Merrygirl]

I’m wondering how broad or how narrow the legal definition of forgery may be.
Could any computer hacking and alteration of another’s FB page be considered forgery.

That’s a good question. I looked this up and it doesn’t appear to be but Computer hacking could be used in obtaining, changing information, or producing a document. I don’t believe FB would be since it’s not for personal gain. IANAL. JMOO. Forgery Laws in Ohio

 

[Puzzles8]

AC seemed to have no objection to giving Gerlach a copy of the audio file of RN's GJ.

I can only think of two possible reasons FG might be requesting it.

1) To make sure the the transcription document exactly matches the the wording of the audio file.

2) To see if the "Mystery Man in Blue" might have uttered anything (in the background of the audio) to potentially establish the MMB really exists and might be able to be identified.

JMO, MOO

 

[Loomis124]

DBM

 

[Merrygirl]

I fully understand all the intricacies of handwriting characteristics and recognizing a forged signature. You understand them as well. That does not mean that AW understood it when the signatures were forged.

TRUE, but I was only explaining my thoughts of the likelihood of more than one person (but maybe not all four) took part.

 

[Betty P]

Jmo I have heard about that on here, but never saw that article. I would like to see the article and know who witnessed this fight to be able to decide if I would feel they are credible. Jmo Kendra was extremely close to Jake and in her interviews didn’t reveal any custody fights and I find that very odd. Jmo

Court docs: Suspect filed for custody of child at heart of Pike County investigation days after slayings

Suspect in killings of daughter's mother and family sought custody just 6 days after the murders