OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #52

[Puzzles8]

dbm - accidentally double posted

 

[Puzzles8]

I fully understand all the intricacies of handwriting characteristics and recognizing a forged signature. You understand them as well. That does not mean that AW understood it when the signatures were forged.

We really don't know who might have signed or forged the signatures on those documents.

All we know is that it was not RN.

 

[Betty P]

JMO, but I saw another family member's FB post telling what JW did to HR during that incident.

We'll probably find out when the trials for the W4 begin. It was probably a nasty confrontation.

Recall, JW began hacking HMR's phone/social media, etc. in 2014. Jake's campaign to gain custody of S was definitely the primary motive for the murders, but he was also obsessed with controlling Hanna Rhoden. Like most abusive partners, he was enraged that he could no longer control her or the decisions she made. So many murderous ex-partners have made the same decision - "if I can't have you, then no one else can".

 

[Daytocincy]

AC seemed to have no objection to giving Gerlach a copy of the audio file of RN's GJ.

I can only think of two possible reasons FG might be requesting it.

1) To make the the transcription document exactly matches the the wording of the audio file.

2) To see if the "Mystery Man in Blue" might have uttered anything (in the background of the audio) to potentially establish the MMB really exists and might be able to be identified.

JMO, MOO

The judge ordered the audio to be given to defense on 10/22/19. And I don't think this was the first mention of it not being turned over. Still on 12/2, there was still no audio provided to the defense. This is just my opinion, but I don't think the state is just "forgetting" to turn this over. I don't think they are going to turn it over until they are actually forced to. Obviously, there is something they feel would be useful to some/all defendants.

 

[Loomis124]

RITA'S PLEA AGREEMENT 12-2-2019.

I just uploaded these documents to the Media & Timeline thread, p. 17.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/plea1-jpg.218508/

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/plea2-jpg.218509/

These were originally posted by Dudley on page 36.

 

[bowler]

I agree but respectfully disagree to a point. The document required a signature of the person giving the permission, 2 witnesses and RN’s signature (as notary)=4 signatures x4 documents. Assuming AW was one of the signators, that still leaves 3 other persons + HMR to replicate. It’s very difficult to replicate that many different signatory types and accurately match for 4 documents with only one person to have forged. In my line of work we compare signatures of Medicaid recipients on documents and find obvious flaws in the mannerisms of their signatures that are not carried through each document signature. For instance, one person may make rounded letters while another may make distinct straight line letters or add tails to certain letters. Usually the forger’s signature will contain some of these same elements. To replicate 3-4 people’s signature styles consistently on four different documents would be next to impossible. And if you had a signature from each and you traced it then that too is a red flag as no one’s signature looks EXACTLY the same on everything you sign. It’s the characteristics of the signatures that make them unique to that person.

Also, at least one of the documents (and perhaps all) had to have been submitted formally to the public as being a legal document (either to a court, a lawyer, an agency, etc)—it’s not considered a forgery if it has not been submitted as an authentic document. I do agree the forgery indictments could have been a blanketed charge as in “These are forged documents. Not sure who did it so all are charged until we figure out who did it.” My guess is it took more than 1-2 people to complete.

How do/can you do a notary for such a life altering "thing" as custody? Processed thru a family court would be needed wouldn't it?

 

[Merrygirl]

Betty, I don't believe Rita actually "pled" yesterday, did she? My understanding is that is what she has agreed to do. Anyone? JMO

yes, she formally withdrew her NOT GUILTY plea and changed it to Guilty for the obstruction indictment. Her plea sentencing will be at a date TBD later.

 

[Merrygirl]

I'm out of the loop, exactly which recording was he asking for? The recording of AW and RN's forbidden phone conversations? If so, it's probably because the other attorneys and FW want to hear what was said.

He wants the GJ recording of RN’s testimony. He has the written version but it ONLY had her testimony that resulted in HER indictments, not the entire testimony.

 

[Cool Cats]

‘Do we know for sure she was present or just that the conversation took place at her house?

In court at Fred's bond and arraignment hearing Canepa was very clear that Fred was present for the revenge and escape coversations.
What is not clear and has always peaked my interest is if Fred herself actually participated in those conversations because when Canepa says "they" discussed, it's not clear if the "they" includes Fred or not.

We at least know she was present for them and we can assume she heard the conversations but we don't know if she herself talked revenge or escape. Another thing that bothers me, did she even try to talk them out of it?

I am hoping if we have trials that all the "confidential reliable source" information will come to light, which I have always believed is from wiretaps.

I know the Wagner 4 are not smart, but I think they are at least smart enough not to invite people over to Fred's then talk revenge and escape in front of them. Opinion.

 

[Ann99]

How do/can you do a notary for such a life altering "thing" as custody? Processed thru a family court would be needed wouldn't it?

I think your right. Not sure what the W’s were thinking unless a fall back verification during travel. Obviously meant to “mislead” someone.

This is an interesting read. Notarization Elements

I was surprised to learn content of the document is of no concern to a Notary. Notary deals with the signature & ID.
Notary checks that signer's physical description and their document signature is consistent with the ID and that his/her signature is affixed to the document willingly, without anyoutside influence or coercion.
From link:
7. Remember, we notarize signatures, not documents, and do so in a completely impartial manner. The notary has no interest in the document content, other than ensuring it is complete. Scan (don’t read) the document to ensure it is complete. If there are any blank spaces, the signer must either complete the spaces or line through them.
**
Speculation regarding Rita’s Notary Duties.
Makes me wonder if Rita did a lot of Notary work for FW land deals/transfers, and maybe some work for locals notarizing signatures on Ohio vehicle title transfers between private individuals making private vehicle sales. Lots of vehicles and private sales in Southern Ohio.
My speculation only.

 

[Ann99]

He wants the GJ recording of RN’s testimony. He has the written version but it ONLY had her testimony that resulted in HER indictments, not the entire testimony.

I’ll bet he never gets that recording.

 

[Cool Cats]

So now the dam has burst. The W 4 are sitting in jails, have access to tv and internet, and have perhaps seen today's hearing. Who does anyone think Rita's change of plea will be affected by the most. Little George? Ang? I'm thinking George.

I really think it will be a "domino effect."

Starting with Angela because in court it was brought out that Angela wanted her mom to lie because Angela thought it would go better for herself. I would have to re-listen for exact wording.
So it sounds like Rita's plea will help prove Angela specifically forged the custody documents. Then this could lead to the other 3's culpability.

I look forward to a "domino effect"...Opinion

 

[Berrybell]

Remember what led to RN's hearing Dec 2? Bruce Dailey documents, JWs attorney in the custody battle. Sheriff Reader and Brian Reader being called as witnesses, along with Kayla Slusher. Let us not forget what brought us to yesterday and today. JMO

Loomis, please forgive me for being confused. I thought these witnesses were called by the Defense so I am not really sure how that would have forced the prosecution to agree to a plea deal? Thank you so much for helping me out.

 

[I'mNosyRosy]

How do/can you do a notary for such a life altering "thing" as custody? Processed thru a family court would be needed wouldn't it?

It is my understanding that these were not the usual custody documents but these were documents that desingnate a guardian in case the said parent became deceased.

what if both parents become deceased ? Now there is a custody controversy. Perhaps this was the controversy the documents were intended to solve. I think it would be risky and dangerous to go kill 8 people spread over 4 locations.
One day I'll figure out how to post LinkS. But be if i could i would post a blank of this document . It is i belive unknown who on the forged documents "HR" and "GW4" designated as a guardian. But i think it's pretty reasonable to guess it wasn't a Rhoden or GW4 ex wife or her family .
JMO

 

[bowler]

To become a child's guardian, the potential guardian must file an application with the probate court in the jurisdiction where the child resides. In Ohio, a guardian over a child's assets, whether it be the child's parents, a relative or other party, must be bonded by an insurance company.Jul 15, 2014

 

[bowler]

Would W's be bondable? Hmmm..
Guardianship of a Minor in Ohio: How They Work, When They Apply, and What Happens When They're Contested

 

[I'mNosyRosy]

Newcomb Discovery

I hope this link works to RN discovery.

The forged documents are entitled "declaration of appointment of guardian for my minor children in the case of my death or incapacity"

There is a document for HR, JW and GW4

 

[Ann99]

Would W's be bondable? Hmmm..
Guardianship of a Minor in Ohio: How They Work, When They Apply, and What Happens When They're Contested

I doubt W’s knew this detail.
“When children come in possession of significant assets, as mentioned above, the natural parents – even if competent and fit parents – must apply to be guardians of the children's assets.
In Ohio, a guardian over a child's assets, whether it be the child's parents, a relative or other party, must be bonded by an insurance company.
The bond must be in an amount at least twice the value of the child's assets and must be paid for 100 percent in advance of the application. “

 

[Betty P]

It is my understanding that these were not the usual custody documents but these were documents that desingnate a guardian in case the said parent became deceased.

what if both parents become deceased ? Now there is a custody controversy. Perhaps this was the controversy the documents were intended to solve. I think it would be risky and dangerous to go kill 8 people spread over 4 locations.
One day I'll figure out how to post LinkS. But be if i could i would post a blank of this document . It is i belive unknown who on the forged documents "HR" and "GW4" designated as a guardian. But i think it's pretty reasonable to guess it wasn't a Rhoden or GW4 ex wife or her family .
JMO

Hi, I'mNosyRosy,

I believe it was Angela Wagner who was designated the guardian on the documents, per news articles of the last several days.

 

[Loomis124]

Loomis, please forgive me for being confused. I thought these witnesses were called by the Defense so I am not really sure how that would have forced the prosecution to agree to a plea deal? Thank you so much for helping me out.

Yes, you are correct. Sorry for the confusion. I don't think either party was forced into anything. I just think the prosecution did not want the Dailey files to come out just yet, as they involve the custody battle. Only my opinion.