Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[ReadySet]

dbm

 

[MichelleBlue]

I had the same thought but confirmed that SnapMaps was not available until summer of 2017. I do still think it was possible Libby and Abby went there based on plans that were made through social media though, but no it was not possible at the time that someone knew they were there based on their location in SC.

Interesting. Thanks for that information. I just don't think LE is giving the public enough information about this case. I think releasing some of the info could lead to more tips. If they knew the girls were communicating with someone through SM, I wonder if LE would be compelled somewhat morally to disclose this to at least let parents of other girls know that there is a possibility that SC was used .

 

[stattlich1]

Revenge? Not on the girls, but getting back at a family member for some imaginary slight?

The following is ALL SPECULATION. As it is that so little has been revealed about the facts of this case, in many, if not most, instances, we speculate.

Revenge could take many forms. What if a group of girls from school were slighted? Payback? Snitches get stitches? Other possibilities I'll not share publicly.

Now for another question....why was it said this way at that April presser....."the sketch, which you will see shortly, IS the person responsible for the murders of these two little girls"?

Why did he/they not say, IS the person who murdered these two little girls?

 

[margarita25]

Bringing over @borndem ‘s post from the media/non discussion thread:

Quote:
“Thanks, margarita25, for the info and pics you have compiled here -- Libby's budding beauty came out on many pics again, and Abby's freckles, special expressions and signs of creative talent made me again realize how special these two best friends were to each other, and to their families.
We'll never know how far these two special girls may have gone and how much their lives might have made the world a better place.
More tears.”

 

[margarita25]

I found this piece written by Clint Van Zandt all about motive. Even though showing motive in a court of law is not required by prosecutors to get a conviction, it often is "the thing" out of the what, where, why and how that leads LE to the killer, the who.

Criminals' motives are elusive to investigators

Thanks for the article, sunshineray.

From the above link:

“It’s the “why” that is, many times, hard to understand. Not the “why” that has a simple answer—he needed money, he was frustrated, angry, raging, or stupid. The “whys” that are hard to answer are the less obvious, the less sensible ones; the ones that prove to be the most difficult for us to understand.

Most lawyers who go on television to discuss a crime will say that motive, the why of a crime, is not important. In fact, motive is not a legal element of a crime. However, intent or “mens rea,” the mental purpose of performing an act that is forbidden by law, is a legal element of a crime. Motive is the reason, the why, sometimes the darkest chapter in the darkest book in the massive library we call the human mind.

Motive is important because without an understanding of why people commit certain crimes in the way they do, we are left to begin at square one on every investigation, something we simply don’t have the time or the resources to do. That’s where profiling comes in. If law enforcement knows that certain elements of a crime, and certain evidence found at the crime scene, may suggest the type of person who did the crime, then we are on our way to the “why” of the crime that can then take us to the “who” – the person who committed the crime. This can, unfortunately, be a very long journey. Such was the case with the infamous Unabomber.”

•this is why, as I’ve said over and over, I wish we knew if SA took place.

(A note ftr, as mentioned previously by Jim Clemente or Maureen O’Conner, there could have been an attempt at SA but it was not consummated for whatever reason.

Secondly, even if there was SA, it may not be confirmed, as we’ve seen in other cases, where there is suspicion of SA but no definitive proof for whatever reasons. The element of the creek could lend itself to this.)

 

[JnRyan]

Moreover, out-of-state license plates tend to be noticed in a small town, and no one has mentioned any. Cops in particular tend to notice (and often run) out-of-state plates. Therefore, it's extremely likely that BG is from Indiana and probably Carroll County or one of the adjacent counties. (Local shouldn't be taken to mean Delphi specifically. I've spent some time in rural areas; the people in such areas tend to have some familiarity with recreational areas at least a few towns over.)

I don't always pay attention to out-of-state plates, but then again I live in a area where there are a lot of military so it means nothing to me. If the killer did not go into town, there is a likelihood that it was not seen by LE. But out-of-state plates may have played a different role here. There is the vehicle LE mentioned in the April PC that was parked at the former CPS building. Was it suspicious because of an out-of-state plate? A witness driving by may not have noticed the state, but it may have had a distinctive background color. IN license plates have a very distinctive background color, so one with an obvious different background might have been noticed in that place.
Indiana license plate
Indiana State License Plate

 

[IceIce9]

I don't always pay attention to out-of-state plates, but then again I live in a area where there are a lot of military so it means nothing to me. If the killer did not go into town, there is a likelihood that it was not seen by LE. But out-of-state plates may have played a different role here. There is the vehicle LE mentioned in the April PC that was parked at the former CPS building. Was it suspicious because of an out-of-state plate? A witness driving by may not have noticed the state, but it may have had a distinctive background color. IN license plates have a very distinctive background color, so one with an obvious different background might have been noticed in that place.
Indiana license plate
Indiana State License Plate

Indiana has over 100 different plates available. This year there are 2 standard plate choices and 115 other options.

Back in 2017 there were two standard plates available and around 100 other plates that featured charities, organizations, sports teams, hobbies, etc.

The two standard plates were the “In God We Trust” plate with the American flag and a blue plate with the Indiana flag.

Also, Indiana does not have a front license plate.

 

[LovelyB]

I have wondered about the point you make regarding the posters who are on for a short time. In September there was a new poster that said that they were local and had just found WS. Over the space of a few days they had made around 60 posts. Her information seemed reliable and she was inundated with questions which she answered. Then it just stopped, nothing posted. I followed that poster and although they don't post they were still online viewing until around November. Not making out that this is suspicious but would like to know why they stopped so suddenly.

I'm a long time follower of various threads here, but I'm a very sporadic poster of comments... mainly because I don't have time to keep up with the threads on a daily basis. In general, I don't think much should be assumed regarding spurts of posts and then no posts. They probably have other things going on in their lives, or maybe they have given all the input they have, and are following along without posting. Or, maybe this forum isn't their cup of tea, so they stopped visiting here. My opinion only...

 

[JnRyan]

Indiana has over 100 different plates available. This year there are 2 standard plate choices and 115 other options.

Back in 2017 there were two standard plates available and around 100 other plates that featured charities, organizations, sports teams, hobbies, etc.

The two standard plates were the “In God We Trust” plate with the American flag and a blue plate with the Indiana flag.

Also, Indiana does not have a front license plate.

So this would seem to decrease the likelihood that someone would pay attention to an out-of-state plate? I'd say that is a possibility for non-LE persons. What does this do for LE observations and actions, I can't say.

But another thought that occurred to me. Does the local LE run out-of-state plates with some degree of regularity? Is there a record kept of the plates run between, say, 11 Feb 2017 and 15 Feb 2017? If so, I would hope the investigative team might have considered that aspect. Just the same, if such a search was fruitless, it doesn't mean our killer wasn't from out-of-state. He could still be from out-of-state and just didn't have his plate run by LE.

 

[IceIce9]

So this would seem to decrease the likelihood that someone would pay attention to an out-of-state plate? I'd say that is a possibility for non-LE persons. What does this do for LE observations and actions, I can't say.

But another thought that occurred to me. Does the local LE run out-of-state plates with some degree of regularity? Is there a record kept of the plates run between, say, 11 Feb 2017 and 15 Feb 2017? If so, I would hope the investigative team might have considered that aspect. Just the same, if such a search was fruitless, it doesn't mean our killer wasn't from out-of-state. He could still be from out-of-state and just didn't have his plate run by LE.

In my job, I work with LE pretty frequently and in the past some of the officers had complained about the number of different Indiana plates. But in the past year or two they have been getting plate scanning technology so it isn’t as much of an issue.

 

[JnRyan]

In my job, I work with LE pretty frequently and in the past some of the officers had complained about the number of different Indiana plates. But in the past year or two they have been getting plate scanning technology so it isn’t as much of an issue.

Good to know! So do local and state LE agencies frequently run out-of-state plates? I assume LE must maintain some record in case they have to go back to check on something. For example, a plate is run and there is nothing flagged on that plate and later something such as an Amber Alert is tied to that plate, LE is alerted. (I assume you work with IN LE agencies or a neighboring state.)

 

[TheVisual]

I too was confused. This my understanding now. I'm sure FD will correct me if I am wrong. The NW end of the bridge is the side that the girls started out on and also finished up on. This is the side closest to the drop off point. They made their way across the bridge from NW to South side. From there they somehow got across the creek back to the North West side. I hope this hasn't confused you even more and apologies if I am wrong.

A little clarity. The NW side is where the Mary Gerrerd entrance is. (looking at most maps on here show the bridge is left W to right E). North top of pictures and South is bottom of pictures in relation to the bridge. Abby and Libby came in the NW Mary Gerrerd entrance, crossed the bridge and ended up NE of the bridge near the cemetery

 

[Ozoner]

•this is why, as I’ve said over and over, I wish we knew if SA took place.

The motive for the crime was almost certainly enjoyment and/or sexual gratification, regardless of whether SA occurred.
-
Sexual gratification is the motive of the vast majority of serial killers, but some of them experience a sexual release just from killing.

 

[JnRyan]

The motive for the crime was almost certainly enjoyment and/or sexual gratification, regardless of whether SA occurred.
-
Sexual gratification is the motive of the vast majority of serial killers, but some of them experience a sexual release just from killing.

Another possibility is Abigail and Liberty encountered and maybe some statement or action - with NO malicious intent on the part of the girls - may have set this guy off. Seeing him again on the bridge may have been what set off alarm bells for Liberty.

That said, I believe the aspect of some sexual gratification is the most likely as you point out. I'm not at the point where I would say he is a serial killer. BUT I firmly believe this killer has committed crimes of a sexual nature in his past. Whether or not there is a record of such offenses is another matter since victims either don't report or the authorities, for whatever reason - e.g., insufficient evidence - don't charge him. And as I've said before his DNA could be in an unprocessed rape kit related to an unsolved rape.

 

[MonstrSquad]

Hello all,

I’ve created a ‘flow-chart’ (mentally) about some ideas of how LE can perhaps glean more information for this case provided they haven’t thought of this already. I will spare you most of the primitive beginnings of my thought process for brevity’s sake.


I organized my thoughts on the premise of identifying who in MOO may have insider knowledge but may not even realize it. As in someone who either is very familiar with the households and/or house life of the residents of Delphi, and possibly many of the surrounding counties. Someone who has been inside most or all businesses and buildings. One who has heard many different people’s voices, whether in conversation or just by overhearing phone calls, to something as simple as a greeting upon arrival. I narrowed it down to an occupation that I personally feel in MOO an essential function of the job duties require them to physically enter private and corporate dwellings and the like.


First I thought a maid service; however not everyone uses this, and that would put a limit as well on interaction as many have a copy of keys to enter when no one is ‘home.’


Then it hit me. Cable Technicians. I know most or maybe ALL cable providers require the customer to be home or at least present to provide these technicians access by way of formal policy (that old line they give you when you need service of “okay we can come between this time and this time Tuesday” that many of us I’m sure have heard before...then we have to work something out so we are home/in office/have a trusted person provide access because you don’t give your key to these workers).


Now I’m not sure how prolific having cable or high speed internet access is in Delphi or even the surrounding Counties, but if some type of workforce report could be obtained about the employees of local cable companies with regard to those technicians that enter the home or office setting, and that group were asked to review the information available from LE for this case, it may ring a bell and lead to some great tips


I spoke with a close friend who previously was a Cable Tech and I was astonished at how observant he was. He could remember and identify locals by voice if they were in the same grocery store, without even having to see them. He told me stories of families arguing and fighting while he was doing his job. Stories of homes and offices that were disheveled. He could tell when someone was ‘off’ and strange. But most of all, he told me he had basically been in every house in his huge neighborhood and even when nothing stuck out to him, he could still remember many voices and names associated with these homes.


He explained by saying the job becomes so second-nature that you can almost do it with your eyes closed. After a while, you become a little bored and you just listen. You’re not going in there blasting a portable stereo since people are present and you likely have a partner, so headphones or earbuds tend to interfere with the work flow and so you stay entertained by listening to the customers.
All MOO

Anyone else have thoughts on this or other ideas? Feel free to correct me on any of this or to chime in.

So much for brevity!

 

[margarita25]

Marking article from 2007, haven’t looked at it yet:

Hikers experience beauty of Delphi Historic Trail

 

[margarita25]

Hello all,

I’ve created a ‘flow-chart’ (mentally) about some ideas of how LE can perhaps glean more information for this case provided they haven’t thought of this already. I will spare you most of the primitive beginnings of my thought process for brevity’s sake.


I organized my thoughts on the premise of identifying who in MOO may have insider knowledge but may not even realize it. As in someone who either is very familiar with the households and/or house life of the residents of Delphi, and possibly many of the surrounding counties. Someone who has been inside most or all businesses and buildings. One who has heard many different people’s voices, whether in conversation or just by overhearing phone calls, to something as simple as a greeting upon arrival. I narrowed it down to an occupation that I personally feel in MOO an essential function of the job duties require them to physically enter private and corporate dwellings and the like.


First I though a maid service; however not everyone uses this, and that would put a limit as well on interaction as many have a copy of keys to enter when no one is ‘home.’


Then it hit me. Cable Technicians. I know most or maybe ALL cable providers require the customer to be home or at least present to provide these technicians access by way of formal policy (that old line they give you when you need service of “okay we can come between this time and this time Tuesday” that many of us I’m sure have heard before...then we have to work something out so we are home/in office/have a trusted person provide access because you don’t give your key to these workers).


Now I’m not sure how prolific having cable or high speed internet access is in Delphi or even the surrounding Counties, but if some type of workforce report could be obtained about the employees of local cable companies with regard to those technicians that enter the home or office setting, and that group were asked to review the information available from LE for this case, it may ring a bell and lead to some great tips


I spoke with a close friend who previously was a Cable Tech and I was astonished at how observant he was. He could remember and identify locals by voice if they were in the same grocery store, without even having to see them. He told me stories of families arguing and fighting while he was doing his job. Stories of homes and offices that were disheveled. He could tell when someone was ‘off’ and strange. But most of all, he told me he had basically been in every house in his huge neighborhood and even when nothing stuck out to him, he could still remember many voices and names associated with these homes.


He explained by saying the job becomes so second-nature that you can almost do it with your eyes closed. After a while, you become a little bored and you just listen. You’re not going in there blasting a portable stereo since people are present and you likely have a partner, so headphones or earbuds tend to interfere with the work flow and so you stay entertained by listening to the customers.


So much for brevity!

Re: “So much for brevity!”, aint’ no such thing here, I’m afraid. We’re on Thread 118 and going on 3 years. (I actually reached the limit of 45,000 characters in Media Timeline 7 yesterday, 118 articles in that one post I believe... Btw, new Timelines 8 and 9 in progress, sources not included in Timelines 1-7).

I’m laying the foundation for our BG Arrest party so we’ll have all our quotes and references ready for that big day.

Start thinking about what dishes you guys are going to bring. I’m bringing the booze.

 

[sunshineray]

Thanks for the article, sunshineray.

From the above link:

“It’s the “why” that is, many times, hard to understand. Not the “why” that has a simple answer—he needed money, he was frustrated, angry, raging, or stupid. The “whys” that are hard to answer are the less obvious, the less sensible ones; the ones that prove to be the most difficult for us to understand.

Most lawyers who go on television to discuss a crime will say that motive, the why of a crime, is not important. In fact, motive is not a legal element of a crime. However, intent or “mens rea,” the mental purpose of performing an act that is forbidden by law, is a legal element of a crime. Motive is the reason, the why, sometimes the darkest chapter in the darkest book in the massive library we call the human mind.

Motive is important because without an understanding of why people commit certain crimes in the way they do, we are left to begin at square one on every investigation, something we simply don’t have the time or the resources to do. That’s where profiling comes in. If law enforcement knows that certain elements of a crime, and certain evidence found at the crime scene, may suggest the type of person who did the crime, then we are on our way to the “why” of the crime that can then take us to the “who” – the person who committed the crime. This can, unfortunately, be a very long journey. Such was the case with the infamous Unabomber.”

•this is why, as I’ve said over and over, I wish we knew if SA took place.

(A note ftr, as mentioned previously by Jim Clemente or Maureen O’Conner, there could have been an attempt at SA but it was not consummated for whatever reason.

Secondly, even if there was SA, it may not be confirmed, as we’ve seen in other cases, where there is suspicion of SA but no definitive proof for whatever reasons. The element of the creek could lend itself to this.)

You're welcome margarita.

In Mr. Van Zandt's piece, this about sums it up for me about the Delphi murders.

"...it strains the human imagination as to the “why” of human behavior"

I just can't relate to the why, it strains the mind and soul trying to understand. I hope the day comes quickly when this monster is caught.

 

[Ozoner]

Another possibility is Abigail and Liberty encountered and maybe some statement or action - with NO malicious intent on the part of the girls - may have set this guy off. Seeing him again on the bridge may have been what set off alarm bells for Liberty.

That said, I believe the aspect of some sexual gratification is the most likely as you point out. I'm not at the point where I would say he is a serial killer. BUT I firmly believe this killer has committed crimes of a sexual nature in his past. Whether or not there is a record of such offenses is another matter since victims either don't report or the authorities, for whatever reason - e.g., insufficient evidence - don't charge him. And as I've said before his DNA could be in an unprocessed rape kit related to an unsolved rape.

If he isn't a serial killer yet, it's only because he hasn't had the chance to become one yet.

 

[margarita25]

Media Timeline 8
Abby & Libby
Articles by Pharos Tribune
Feb 14, 2017 - Nov 21, 2019
M25 WS


2017

Feb 14, 2017

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held


Feb 15, 2017

UPDATED: Official on Delphi double homicide: 'There is somebody out there who did this crime'


Feb 22, 2017

UPDATED: Delphi homicide victim recorded, photographed suspect on her phone


Mar 9, 2017

A family speaks: Grandfather of slain Delphi girl issues statement


Mar 13, 2017

Cameras coming soon to Delphi trails


Jul 17, 2017

UPDATED: Composite sketch released in Delphi killings


Aug 14, 2017

6 months later: Delphi officials, residents reflect on February deaths


Sep 28, 2017

UPDATED: ISP: Man arrested in Colorado not person of interest in Delphi case


Dec 30, 2017

TIMELINE: A look back at the Delphi homicides


2018

Jan 8, 2018

HQ moving for Delphi homicide investigation


Jan 16, 2018

Investigators correct info on Delphi case


Feb 13, 2018

UPDATED: Police investigation into Delphi killings enters 2nd year


2019

Jan 21, 2019

Authorities continue to explore Delphi leads


Feb 13, 2019

Investigators reflect on Delphi murders two years later


Mar 21, 2019

Work begins on memorial park to honor Abby and Libby


Apr 22, 2019

UPDATED: New sketch, audio, video in Delphi murder case

New video of Delphi murder suspect

Video

New audio of Delphi murder suspect


Apr 24, 2019

ISP clarifies new sketch in Delphi murder case


May 3, 2019

Delphi's Monon High Bridge receives state funding


May 13, 2019

More than 3,000 tips since new sketch, footage in Delphi case


Jun 16, 2019

Crowdfunding campaign launched for Abby and Libby Memorial Park


Jul 16, 2019

$50,000 goal met for Abby, Libby Memorial Park


Nov 21, 2019

Investigation continues on third anniversary of Flora fire
(Abby and Libby mentioned)