CASCU Analysis of Crime

[Dru]

good points.the only other option I see is Patsy killing her..for whatever reason,accidentally or no...but then...she gets JR(rem. her saying the murderer confided in someone?)..who decides they must get her out of the house...so he stages the sexual wound (to cover past abuse,as well as it will throw in a sexual reasoning to it),ligature strangles her,and together they write the RN.
Then they decide to leave her in the WC instead,thus the rest of the coverup begins..the large underwear,etc...JR may have asked for more WED. underwear,insisting on it,only to be told by PR the large ones are all she has...so better than nothing,he uses them.Or patsy may not have been present in the final staging,although she knows it's going on.But I'm not sure JR would have known that underwear was even there without Patsy telling him.
Would that work,too? Help me out here if not,as I may have missed something.

The only reason that doesn't work is that the vaginal injury was inflicted before JBR died. So at this point, if PR has inflicted the head wound and JR the ligature strangulation, technically it is JR who is the murderer!

Also, I can't see any reason at all for the WED underwear as opposed to any other pair, unless the parent responsible for JBR's death knows that the other parent knows which pair of underwear she was wearing to bed. Why else would you chose that particular pair of underwear?

 

[Dru]

I know,I had microbiology in college,correct me if I'm wrong, b/c it's been over 20 yrs ago...they would have taken a sample of tissue from inside her,and looked at it under a microscope for signs of chronic infiltrate in the cells..which apparently they did find.
But would JR have known this from the books he read,like Mindhunter? (I don't know,I haven't read it).My guess is that even if he did,an acute injury was his only option at that point,as an attempt to hide any prior abuse.It was all he had and it was better than nothing at all,esp given the fact her body will decompose to some degree.

I agree with you here, JMO8778; JR, or whoever inflicted this injury, may not have realized that an acute injury wouldn't obliterate signs of past abuse; even if the person responsible did know this, I think there was some attempt to confuse/compromise the evidence of chronic abuse. Bearing in mind that a handful of people still deny that any chronic abuse ever took place I'd say the acute injury did exactly what it was intended to do!

 

[DeeDee249]

The only reason that doesn't work is that the vaginal injury was inflicted before JBR died. So at this point, if PR has inflicted the head wound and JR the ligature strangulation, technically it is JR who is the murderer!

Also, I can't see any reason at all for the WED underwear as opposed to any other pair, unless the parent responsible for JBR's death knows that the other parent knows which pair of underwear she was wearing to bed. Why else would you chose that particular pair of underwear?

The only other reason for the necessity of the Wednesday panties might be if someone that day at the White's had helped JBR in the bathroom (this was a common thing, according to Nedra and PR). They might well remember Day Of the Week panties, and if they had been asked by LE about the clothing she was found in they'd have known if it was different. As it turns out, it is public knowledge what clothes JBR was wearing when she was found. That's why the redressing had to be done with identical panties.
It just turns out that the only other pair of Wednesday panties happened to be the size 12s that were meant as a gift for a relative. And THAT's what was in that partially-opened Christmas gift in the basement. PR admitted she would wrap presents down there- but take a look at that wineceller. It's filthy- moldy and musty. NO one wraps presents in a place like that. There were other areas in the basement, true, BUT those opened presents were in the wineceller. Now, why would they be stored there? It wasn't like they were hiding gifts from the kids- Christmas was already over- the kids opened their gifts that morning.
PR knew that those Bloomies panties were in one of those wrapped boxes. So someone had to unwrap and find them, and the opened boxes were simply left in the wineceller, where I believe the redressing may have occurred.

 

[UKGuy]

The only other reason for the necessity of the Wednesday panties might be if someone that day at the White's had helped JBR in the bathroom (this was a common thing, according to Nedra and PR). They might well remember Day Of the Week panties, and if they had been asked by LE about the clothing she was found in they'd have known if it was different. As it turns out, it is public knowledge what clothes JBR was wearing when she was found. That's why the redressing had to be done with identical panties.
It just turns out that the only other pair of Wednesday panties happened to be the size 12s that were meant as a gift for a relative. And THAT's what was in that partially-opened Christmas gift in the basement. PR admitted she would wrap presents down there- but take a look at that wineceller. It's filthy- moldy and musty. NO one wraps presents in a place like that. There were other areas in the basement, true, BUT those opened presents were in the wineceller. Now, why would they be stored there? It wasn't like they were hiding gifts from the kids- Christmas was already over- the kids opened their gifts that morning.
PR knew that those Bloomies panties were in one of those wrapped boxes. So someone had to unwrap and find them, and the opened boxes were simply left in the wineceller, where I believe the redressing may have occurred.

DeeDee249,

PR knew that those Bloomies panties were in one of those wrapped boxes. So someone had to unwrap and find them, and the opened boxes were simply left in the wineceller, where I believe the redressing may have occurred.

There were no unwrapped size-12 underwear discovered in the basement.


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[Ames]

DeeDee249,

There were no unwrapped size-12 underwear discovered in the basement.


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Right, weren't these kept in one of JB's drawers?? I know that JB had the same ones...size 6.....but, I read where she wanted to keep the size 12's too...because she knew that she would grow into them one day....instead of giving them to her cousin. And how would an intruder know where to look for JB's panties???

 

[UKGuy]

Right, weren't these kept in one of JB's drawers?? I know that JB had the same ones...size 6.....but, I read where she wanted to keep the size 12's too...because she knew that she would grow into them one day....instead of giving them to her cousin. And how would an intruder know where to look for JB's panties???

Ames,

You sure you believe all that? There were no size-12's found anywhere in the house. They were returned a long time later, courtesy of the Ramsey's when they say they discovered them in a packing case?

The size-12's, her size-6 pair, the piece of the paintbrush handle, have to date not been accounted for on the night of JonBenet's death, along with her sexual injury and its cleanup all pose a decisive question for those who think JonBenet died as the result of an unintentional accidental death?



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[Ames]

Ames,

You sure you believe all that? There were no size-12's found anywhere in the house. They were returned a long time later, courtesy of the Ramsey's when they say they discovered them in a packing case?

The size-12's, her size-6 pair, the piece of the paintbrush handle, have to date not been accounted for on the night of JonBenet's death, along with her sexual injury and its cleanup all pose a decisive question for those who think JonBenet died as the result of an unintentional accidental death?



.

But, where..in your opinion...were the size 12's kept....its a known fact that she was wearing a size 12 pair of bloomies, when she actually wore a 6. She was found wearing these.....so, where in the house, did they keep the pack?? Of course there was not intruder....so, these panties were "found" easily, because Patsy knew where they were kept.

 

[UKGuy]

But, where..in your opinion...were the size 12's kept....its a known fact that she was wearing a size 12 pair of bloomies, when she actually wore a 6. She was found wearing these.....so, where in the house, did they keep the pack?? Of course there was not intruder....so, these panties were "found" easily, because Patsy knew where they were kept.

Ames,

Do not believe everything you read, she was discovered wearing size-12's, but no size-12's were retrieved from the house, her bedroom and bathroom were searched explicitly for underwear, no pack of size-12's was ever discovered, a flaw in the intruder stategy since what intruder brings his own fresh ready to change underwear?

The size-12's were most likely kept in Patsy's room, if they had been gift-wrapped then surplus gift-wrapping and tags should have been present?


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[Ames]

Ames,

Do not believe everything you read, she was discovered wearing size-12's, but no size-12's were retrieved from the house, her bedroom and bathroom were searched explicitly for underwear, no pack of size-12's was ever discovered, a flaw in the intruder stategy since what intruder brings his own fresh ready to change underwear?

The size-12's were most likely kept in Patsy's room, if they had been gift-wrapped then surplus gift-wrapping and tags should have been present?


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Okay....but, I am confused as to where you think that the size 12's came from. They were days of the week panties, so they would have had to come in a pack, which the Rams turned over later....WAY later. Of course there was no intruder, I am not arguing that fact, because I wasn't born yesterday...LOL Yeah, they could have been in Patsy's room....or kept in another bathroom, or something. My whole point was...that the Rams had a pack of size 12, Days of the Week...panties...kept SOMEWHERE in that house, and that they weren't wrapped. IMO

 

[UKGuy]

Okay....but, I am confused as to where you think that the size 12's came from. They were days of the week panties, so they would have had to come in a pack, which the Rams turned over later....WAY later. Of course there was no intruder, I am not arguing that fact, because I wasn't born yesterday...LOL Yeah, they could have been in Patsy's room....or kept in another bathroom, or something. My whole point was...that the Rams had a pack of size 12, Days of the Week...panties...kept SOMEWHERE in that house, and that they weren't wrapped. IMO

Ames,

The size-12's JonBenet was discovered wearing had to come from the pack purchased at bloomingdales by Patsy at the same she bought a set of size-6's for JonBenet.

There is no way ever that JonBenet was going to wear those size-12's, that is just a little something fabricated by Patsy!


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[Ames]

Ames,

The size-12's JonBenet was discovered wearing had to come from the pack purchased at bloomingdales by Patsy at the same she bought a set of size-6's for JonBenet.

There is no way ever that JonBenet was going to wear those size-12's, that is just a little something fabricated by Patsy!


.

I was trying to figure out what you meant by..."do you really believe that"...and "don't believe everything that you read". I wasn't sure what you were referring to. Yes, I know that two sets were bought, size 6 and size 12 for JB's cousin. Patsy's says....and we all know that Patsy lies...that they decided to keep the size 12 panties...instead of giving them away....because JB wanted them and that she knew that she would GROW INTO them one day. Patsy wasn't trying to say....that I am aware of...that JB would have put them on herself...because at the time, they were too big. That's why they were being stored in a drawer, instead of being wrapped....because JB wanted to keep them....to wear when she was older, and they fit her.

 

[JMO8778]

Ames,

The size-12's JonBenet was discovered wearing had to come from the pack purchased at bloomingdales by Patsy at the same she bought a set of size-6's for JonBenet.

There is no way ever that JonBenet was going to wear those size-12's, that is just a little something fabricated by Patsy!


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the size 12 Wed. underwear..do you think that might be why JR specifically pointed out that JB couldn't read yet?Unless some evidence is being held back,I can't think of any other reason why he would say that.Of course she couldn't read yet...she'd just started Kindergarten !

 

[JMO8778]

The only reason that doesn't work is that the vaginal injury was inflicted before JBR died. So at this point, if PR has inflicted the head wound and JR the ligature strangulation, technically it is JR who is the murderer!

yes,that what ST said,tonly he thinks Patsy did it all.
I suspect they both played a part in it..that's why they covered for each other.

Also, I can't see any reason at all for the WED underwear as opposed to any other pair, unless the parent responsible for JBR's death knows that the other parent knows which pair of underwear she was wearing to bed. Why else would you chose that particular pair of underwear?

only thing comes to mind is they had already decided to make it appear to be a night time abduction from her bedroom(once they decided not to take her out of the house)....so they say she was asleep and they took her straight to bed from the car...then the Wed. underwear lends creadence that..(ie- this is what she had on,we didn't change her).To me,that also throws in some suspicions of sexual abuse...they sure are distancing themselves from her private parts and underwear!
And maybe someone did help her in the bathroom at the White's? Or maybe they weren't sure if someone did or not,since she would ask anyone.

 

[Ames]

the size 12 Wed. underwear..do you think that might be why JR specifically pointed out that JB couldn't read yet?Unless some evidence is being held back,I can't think of any other reason why he would say that.Of course she couldn't read yet...she'd just started Kindergarten !

I believe that she had just started first grade...if I am not mistaken. But, Regardless...just starting first grade in Sept., she wouldn't have been able to read the word WEDNESDAY on her panties, by Dec. IMO

 

[UKGuy]

I was trying to figure out what you meant by..."do you really believe that"...and "don't believe everything that you read". I wasn't sure what you were referring to. Yes, I know that two sets were bought, size 6 and size 12 for JB's cousin. Patsy's says....and we all know that Patsy lies...that they decided to keep the size 12 panties...instead of giving them away....because JB wanted them and that she knew that she would GROW INTO them one day. Patsy wasn't trying to say....that I am aware of...that JB would have put them on herself...because at the time, they were too big. That's why they were being stored in a drawer, instead of being wrapped....because JB wanted to keep them....to wear when she was older, and they fit her.

Ames,

because JB wanted to keep them....to wear when she was older, and they fit her.

Rubbish, how many years would JonBenet have to wait until they fit her?

There were no size-12 underwear in JonBenet's drawer, what does she want with oversized underwear, she is a pageant princess, the daughter of a millionaire, underwear can be purchased anytime.

Patsy is trying to suggest JonBenet dressed herself in those size-12's by stating they were in her bedroom.

It would interesting to read the interview transcripts of the attendee's at the White's party particularly anyone who assisted JonBenet to the toilet?


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[UKGuy]

yes,that what ST said,tonly he thinks Patsy did it all.
I suspect they both played a part in it..that's why they covered for each other.

only thing comes to mind is they had already decided to make it appear to be a night time abduction from her bedroom(once they decided not to take her out of the house)....so they say she was asleep and they took her straight to bed from the car...then the Wed. underwear lends creadence that..(ie- this is what she had on,we didn't change her).To me,that also throws in some suspicions of sexual abuse...they sure are distancing themselves from her private parts and underwear!
And maybe someone did help her in the bathroom at the White's? Or maybe they weren't sure if someone did or not,since she would ask anyone.

JMO8778,

And maybe someone did help her in the bathroom at the White's? Or maybe they weren't sure if someone did or not,since she would ask anyone.

Although relevant this may be a red-herring since anyone who assisted or saw JonBenet in the toilet at the White's party could not miss a 6-year old girl wearing size-12 underwear, Wednesday or not, so the likely confirmation about her wearing size-6's might be forthcoming?

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[Ames]

Ames,


Rubbish, how many years would JonBenet have to wait until they fit her?

There were no size-12 underwear in JonBenet's drawer, what does she want with oversized underwear, she is a pageant princess, the daughter of a millionaire, underwear can be purchased anytime.

Patsy is trying to suggest JonBenet dressed herself in those size-12's by stating they were in her bedroom.

It would interesting to read the interview transcripts of the attendee's at the White's party particularly anyone who assisted JonBenet to the toilet?


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I agree...it would be interesting. I still am not following you here....so, you are saying that its rubbish that Patsy had size 12 underwear laying around somewhere? If so, then where did the pair that JB was wearing come from? The pack had to have been SOMEWHERE in that house. Whether it be Patsy's bedroom, the bathroom, JAR's bedroom, JAR's bathroom...under the bed...they had to have been kept somewhere, for Patsy...OR JOHN...to have been able to pull one from the pack to place on her during the clean up and re-dressing. I am sorry...I just don't see what you are trying to get at. Could you maybe explain it a little better. I know that JB did not place those underwear on herself....one of her parents did it, but as I have said before...they had to have come from somewhere in that house.

 

[DeeDee249]

I still think the size 12s could have come from a gift that PR unwrapped in the basement. The rest of the pack WAS turned in to LE- many months later. So obviously it did exist- it WAS in the house that night. If the new pack was unwrapped that night in order to put the Wednesday pair on JBR, the remaining 6 pairs could have been hidden anywhere- that famous golf bag (which is seen in crime scene photos as RIGHT OUTSIDE the wineceller door could have held many missing clues from that night- a roll of tape, the remaining nylon cord, the panties, the paintbrush...he was awfully anxious to get that bag. And remember- LE may have searched the house, but not that thoroughly IMO. Look how "thoroughly" they searched before she was found. They couldn't even look UP to see wooden latch on a door. (Officer French described the door as "stuck". It wasn't "stuck". It was latched. All he had to do is look at the door when it wouldn't open and he'd have seen that latch and opened the door...and we wouldn't be posting here today 10 years later. So the fact that a search didn't turn up the rest of the size 12s doesn't surprise me.
JBR's panties were not kept in the usual place- they were not kept in her bedroom drawers, but in drawers in her bathroom. Most people keep underwear in their bedroom, but in the R home they kept it in their bathrooms. (PR mentions in an inverview that her own was kept in drawer in her bath/dressing area).
NO intruder could have known that. No one but her parents and the housekeeper knew where JBR kept her panties.

 

[Ames]

I still think the size 12s could have come from a gift that PR unwrapped in the basement. The rest of the pack WAS turned in to LE- many months later. So obviously it did exist- it WAS in the house that night. If the new pack was unwrapped that night in order to put the Wednesday pair on JBR, the remaining 6 pairs could have been hidden anywhere- that famous golf bag (which is seen in crime scene photos as RIGHT OUTSIDE the wineceller door could have held many missing clues from that night- a roll of tape, the remaining nylon cord, the panties, the paintbrush...he was awfully anxious to get that bag. And remember- LE may have searched the house, but not that thoroughly IMO. Look how "thoroughly" they searched before she was found. They couldn't even look UP to see wooden latch on a door. (Officer French described the door as "stuck". It wasn't "stuck". It was latched. All he had to do is look at the door when it wouldn't open and he'd have seen that latch and opened the door...and we wouldn't be posting here today 10 years later. So the fact that a search didn't turn up the rest of the size 12s doesn't surprise me.
JBR's panties were not kept in the usual place- they were not kept in her bedroom drawers, but in drawers in her bathroom. Most people keep underwear in their bedroom, but in the R home they kept it in their bathrooms. (PR mentions in an inverview that her own was kept in drawer in her bath/dressing area).
NO intruder could have known that. No one but her parents and the housekeeper knew where JBR kept her panties.

And even if they had of been wrapped....how in the world would an intruder have known what was in the package...unless, of course...he had x-ray vision or something. It doesn't really matter to me where the panties came from, a wrapped present....or from JB's bathroom...all I know is that ...in either case, an intruder wouldn't have known they were there. I don't think that John would have known about the size 12 panties...thats just something that a dad wouldn't have known...I believe that either Patsy took the size 12 panties out of the pack, or she told John were to find them.

 

[DeeDee249]

Exactly. It had to be either (or both) of the parents.