IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[BeachSky]

I definitely agree with you, no way does SA's actions indicate he thought glass was there, but he still could have been thinking it was there and Chloe could lean on it. We don't know what his mental and physical state was which could have altered his awareness of the dangers in the new surroundings of the ship, especially to a child. The grandparents should have stayed home with Chloe and Wyatt and let the parents enjoy the cruise. Two sets of grandparents needed to go on the cruise? Maybe they were brought along as babysitters.
Another thing, how do parents know if a toddler is light headed or a little off balance from motion sickness on the ship?
I went on one Carnival cruise and that was it, I has motion sickness the entire cruise. A passenger vomited by the dining room and the stench never went away, never again.

Oh my!

 

[IceIce9]

. I had one cataract done at age 44; the other at 49. Everyone is different.

One of my coworkers had cataracts at age 33.

It doesn’t matter though. He could tell the window was open. He chose the only open window. Any difficulties with his vision wouldn’t have made a difference.

 

[IceIce9]

. I had one cataract done at age 44; the other at 49. Everyone is different.

One of my coworkers had cataracts at age 33.

It doesn’t matter though. He could tell the window was open. He chose the only open window. Any difficulties with his vision wouldn’t have made a difference.

True, but even an early cataract is not unusually clinically significant to severely impact vision. Aside from near visual tasks. However, an early cataract is an anomaly.

When this incident happened, I immediately went to Cruise Critic for onboard passenger reports. Several people who were actually on Freedom of the Seas at the time said that SA and Chloe were in a designated "smoking section" of the ship. I don't know why Grandpa was charged with caring for Chloe while other family members (allegedly) went to the buffet, but it's possible that SA is a smoker and agreed to look after Chloe in an area of the ship where he could smoke.

Why would the parents agree to allow Chloe in a smoking area? Who would want their toddler to breath second-hand smoke?

Maybe he told the parents he would take her to the pool area but he really wanted to go smoke.

 

[MsBetsy]

One of my coworkers had cataracts at age 33.

It doesn’t matter though. He could tell the window was open. He chose the only open window. Any difficulties with his vision wouldn’t have made a difference.


Why would the parents agree to allow Chloe in a smoking area? Who would want their toddler to breath second-hand smoke?

Maybe he told the parents he would take her to the pool area but he really wanted to go smoke.

I haven't heard or read anything about him being a smoker.
According to CBS, they were in the play area
when Chloe was seen in the video walking to the row of windows with grandpa following close behind.
He followed her to the window, then looked over the railing for a second before lifting her over the railing.

Imo

 

[Montrealaise]

Speaking of the fund me sites, my cousin died so I sent money to her family to help with funeral expenses or purchase flowers to represent me (they live out of my state) since I couldn't be there. One relative called me and said my money wasn't needed for the funeral, but there is a fund me page for her grandchildren's college fund, so that's where my money went. If I knew that, I would have never sent the money, it really bothered me.
Just like the Wiegands various fundme causes, once your money is sent, they can do what they please with it, even give it all to SA's defense fund without your knowledge, which he doesn't deserve if he is found negligent in Chloe's death.

The whole concept of crowdfunding bothers me. If you go to these sites, you'll see that a number of them are for luxuries like dream vacations or lavish weddings. What ever happened to living within your means or saving up for something special? Why should strangers fund your lifestyle? I call it panhandling on the internet. In the case of the Wiegands, if they couldn't afford to send their son to a hockey competition and go on a cruise, too, why not choose one or the other?

 

[IceIce9]

The whole concept of crowdfunding bothers me. If you go to these sites, you'll see that a number of them are for luxuries like dream vacations or lavish weddings. What ever happened to living within your means or saving up for something special? Why should strangers fund your lifestyle? I call it panhandling on the internet. In the case of the Wiegands, if they couldn't afford to send their son to a hockey competition and go on a cruise, too, why not choose one or the other?

Crowdfunding sites wouldn’t exist if people didn’t donate. I always wonder who gives to the dream vacation, etc. requests.

Sadly fraudulent stories appear on the sites, crooks hear about a tragic accident or fire on the news and use the details to set up a request. Quite a few times families have stated in news stories that they have not set up a request and any gimme money site with their name on it is fraudulent.

It’s best to set up legitimate donation accounts at banks, rather than the online. And banks don’t take a percentage like the funding sites do.

There was a local tragedy a couple years ago and three different fraudulent sites appeared. The news reporters stressed that the family had not set up ANY funding requests online and anyone wanting to make donations could do so at a local bank.

The fraudulent sites event misspelled the family’s last name, lol.[/QUOTE]

 

[MaryG12]

I definitely agree with you, no way does SA's actions indicate he thought glass was there, but he still could have been thinking it was there and Chloe could lean on it. We don't know what his mental and physical state was which could have altered his awareness of the dangers in the new surroundings of the ship, especially to a child. The grandparents should have stayed home with Chloe and Wyatt and let the parents enjoy the cruise. Two sets of grandparents needed to go on the cruise? Maybe they were brought along as babysitters.
Another thing, how do parents know if a toddler is light headed or a little off balance from motion sickness on the ship?
I went on one Carnival cruise and that was it, I has motion sickness the entire cruise. A passenger vomited by the dining room and the stench never went away, never again.

I hear you on this.

I myself have to ask why the parents could not leave Chloe at home with the grandparents.

I have heard quite a few horror stories from friends who have taken cruises, and they complain about how some people let their kids run amuck all over the cruise ships (are cruise ships the new elegant restaurants?), careening into other passengers, what have you. I think because of that, some lines such as Silversea and Regent Seven Seas are adults-only. Same friends also argue that no way would a baby even remember being on a cruise ship, had Chloe not been lifted up to that window.

As it is, I am deathly afraid of boats or watercraft of any kind and in a way glad I will never have to experience/witness any event like Chloe's accidental death.

 

[neesaki]

I hear you on this.

I myself have to ask why the parents could not leave Chloe at home with the grandparents.

I have heard quite a few horror stories from friends who have taken cruises, and they complain about how some people let their kids run amuck all over the cruise ships (are cruise ships the new elegant restaurants?), careening into other passengers, what have you. I think because of that, some lines such as Silversea and Regent Seven Seas are adults-only. Same friends also argue that no way would a baby even remember being on a cruise ship, had Chloe not been lifted up to that window.

As it is, I am deathly afraid of boats or watercraft of any kind and in a way glad I will never have to experience/witness any event like Chloe's accidental death.

ITA, a cruise vacation with a small toddler makes no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps a Disney cruise after they are old enough to enjoy it.

Everything about this situation pretty much boggles my mind.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...I have heard quite a few horror stories from friends who have taken cruises, and they complain about how some people let their kids run amuck all over the cruise ships (are cruise ships the new elegant restaurants?), careening into other passengers, what have you. I think because of that, some lines such as Silversea and Regent Seven Seas are adults-only. Same friends also argue that no way would a baby even remember being on a cruise ship, had Chloe not been lifted up to that window...

DH and I mostly cruise during the winter (late January - early February) and rarely see children. Since 2002, we have sailed only on Princess that doesn't offer the bells & whistles seen on cruise lines like Disney, RCCL, or Norwegian. Princess does have dedicated and staffed child/teen clubs that receive favorable reviews. Princess doesn't have water slides, ice skating, rock-climbing, go karts, etc., so the ships are not a destination for families. On the rare occasions when we have seen children, they are either supervised and well-behaved or allowed to roam the ship as they please. During school vacations periods and summer vacations, I'm sure the dedicated child/teen areas are well-used, but we've walked by those clubs and seen them empty. Young children can be a nuisance in the formal dining venues because sit-down meals, especially dinner, tend to take at least 90 minutes or longer.

I wonder what plans the family might have made for shore excursions. I perused Royal Caribbean site for excursion offerings for Freedom of the Seas itinerary similar to Chloe's family's cruise. Other than going to a beach, there didn't seem to be any shore excursions that would accommodate a toddler. It seems that Chloe enjoyed water, but a beach in the Caribbean isn't like the children's water park on the ship. Chloe would have needed a life vest and constant supervision if she was taken into the ocean. No way would I have taken a toddler anywhere near a beach in the Caribbean! I really don't know what they were thinking when the decided to take Chloe on a cruise

 

[LietKynes]

SA has no excuse for not knowing the window
I don't get why SA said they both cou

Initially SA said he lost his grip, but when interviewed, he said Chloe slipped. It sounds to me like he is blaming the victim by saying Chloe slipped, like she did something wrong, not him. Another excuse. I wonder why Chloe wanted to wander off from the pool area to walk to the windows. Usually kids love pools and want to stay in them for hours on end. One article I read said she was wearing a t-shirt and shorts, but the rest of them said she had her bathing suit on. Did SA change her pool clothes to walk over to the window area if that report is true? I guess the video will show what she wore.

bbm
Ita.

One of the first excuses -- was that she'd asked to be picked up and held against that window.
I wonder if she was very 'verbal' yet ?
Some toddlers take a while to communicate.
She could've just reached out to be picked up. and nothing else.
Hmmm....

Speaking of the fund me sites, my cousin died so I sent money to her family to help with funeral expenses or purchase flowers to represent me (they live out of my state) since I couldn't be there. One relative called me and said my money wasn't needed for the funeral, but there is a fund me page for her grandchildren's college fund, so that's where my money went. If I knew that, I would have never sent the money, it really bothered me.
Just like the Wiegands various fundme causes, once your money is sent, they can do what they please with it, even give it all to SA's defense fund without your knowledge, which he doesn't deserve if he is found negligent in Chloe's death.

bbm

Re. the bolded : That's unsettling.

Sorry about your cousin.
And that the family wasn't completely honest with you.

 

[borndem]

If the videos are clear enough, they may show whether the breeze could be felt. Chloe was wearing her white hat, which would move in the wind. The Royal Carribean blog that was linked here has cruisers saying that the breeze is definitely there, even when the ship is docked.

Freedom of the Seas Fatality?

I've never been on a cruise (acrophobia and a bit of navis-phobia -- but I like cars and horses and chocolate), but DH and I have a place on the NC Atlantic coast, and there is almost always at least a little breeze when you are near the ocean -- it can be an off- or on-shore breeze, day or night, but it's rare in this area anyway for there not to be even just a very light breeze. And, IMO, higher up as they were on the ship, the breeze would be a bit brisker than just at ground-level. JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

With this type of "logic" no one who was ever careless would go to prison....it is a slippery slope.

Does this mean that the woman who killed three children getting off a school bus, should not be charged with negligent homicide, because she didn't mean to kill children when she passed a stopped school bus with flashing lights?

Why shouldn't SA go to prison? Because he feels badly? I am sure that many people in prison feel remorse for their actions. By this logic, we shouldn't convict any one, because they are sorry for what happened.

SA deserves a sentence, based on a trial and jury of his peers. He obviously feels little to no actual remorse, because if he was truly repentant, he would plead guilty and ask for leniency, instead of placing the blame for Chloe's death on the cruise line, telling one story after another, as a way to justify reasons for why Chloe is dead.

Chloe is dead, because SA deliberately put Chloe in an unsafe situation. He should own that behavior, and be held accountable for his actions.

In my country, remorse is taken into account during sentencing. The sentence may be reduced if the offender is remorseful. I would think that most countries have this kind of consideration in their sentencing.

Remorse, as you say, is no reason for a person not to be held accountable. imo

 

[SouthAussie]

So what was amiss here? (possibly alcohol)

RSBM

Besides the stupidity of essentially ignoring the purpose and intention of a safety rail, what was amiss is that grandpa didn't bend down or sit down to look out of the (lower) window with Chloe. That way they could have safely enjoyed the experience together. imo

Too many people don't get down to the child's level - in whichever way they physically can - to share experiences with the child.

 

[they'll get you]

RSBM

Besides the stupidity of essentially ignoring the purpose and intention of a safety rail, what was amiss is that grandpa didn't bend down or sit down to look out of the (lower) window with Chloe. That way they could have safely enjoyed the experience together. imo

Too many people don't get down to the child's level - in whichever way they physically can - to share experiences with the child.

Yes and there are umpteen chairs there he could have sat next to or held Chloe.
The windows lean outward so even at Chloe’s height she and GPa would have been able to look down, left, right and across the port.

 

[Aydrianna523]

RSBM

Besides the stupidity of essentially ignoring the purpose and intention of a safety rail, what was amiss is that grandpa didn't bend down or sit down to look out of the (lower) window with Chloe. That way they could have safely enjoyed the experience together. imo

Too many people don't get down to the child's level - in whichever way they physically can - to share experiences with the child.

You might change your mind when you get older.
I'm thinking that she was on the run and you almost always have to pick them up then. But the game of peeking out the window.
Nah!
Also, they can get balky if they want put down, etc. I almost dropped a toddler that way.

 

[Montrealaise]

In my country, remorse is taken into account during sentencing. The sentence may be reduced if the offender is remorseful. I would think that most countries have this kind of consideration in their sentencing.

Remorse, as you say, is no reason for a person not to be held accountable. imo

In order to be remorseful, the offender first has to acknowledge and admit that he did something wrong and so far, it looks like SA hasn't done that. He is blaming everything and everyone else for what happened - it was the cruise line's fault (for not posting warning signs), it was his color-blindness, Chloe squirmed, and so on.

 

[LietKynes]

If SA had 'bad knees' or color blindness or onset dementia (feel free to add if I've missed anything ), so debilitating that he couldn't tell if the window was open or closed, he shouldn't have been watching her.

This is on SA and the family whom I'd assume had asked him to care for her while they ate at the buffet.
He didn't develop color blindness overnight.
The rest of the family had to know about the disabilities he's claiming.

And SA can claim (if he hasn't already) that he's being tried in the court of public opinion.
Fine.
This time the general consensus is correct.
Afaik, only the Wiegands', Anellos', and Mssr. Winkleman think the ship is responsible for her death.

 

[mickey2942]

Chloe was 18 months old. Really not even a child yet, barely a toddler. At 18 months, that is still pretty much a baby. Usually they know about 10-15 words, they communicate, but not full blown sentences.

I am interested in what was happening before she fell. What occurred that day? Had she had a nap? Had she been acting up during lunch and SA took her away so everyone else could finish eating? Was Chloe over tired? Teething? Was SA trying to distract her? Those are the things that we don't know.

I often think that the timeline before the actual occurrence explains a lot.

 

[SouthAussie]

You might change your mind when you get older.
I'm thinking that she was on the run and you almost always have to pick them up then. But the game of peeking out the window.
Nah!
Also, they can get balky if they want put down, etc. I almost dropped a toddler that way.

Exactly my point. An 18-month old child can act quickly, throw themselves backwards in anger or laughter, lean forward because they want to get down or try to reach things.
If they cannot be held securely and safely, then they shouldn't be held (or balanced on a rail or ledge by an open window).

What the heck did he think that safety rail was for? Aesthetics?

(BTW: While I am flattered that you seem to think that I am some young spring chicken and don't have children/grandchildren, I can assure you that is not the case at all. )

 

[SouthAussie]

In order to be remorseful, the offender first has to acknowledge and admit that he did something wrong and so far, it looks like SA hasn't done that. He is blaming everything and everyone else for what happened - it was the cruise line's fault (for not posting warning signs), it was his color-blindness, Chloe squirmed, and so on.

Absolutely, was just responding to comments (that I saw while reading the threads) about him not needing to be charged and tried, as he was already filled with remorse and that was punishment enough.

I agree with other posters ... trying to place the blame elsewhere and not take the responsibility for this squarely on his own shoulders is not serving him well.
Everyone has empathy for a person who has caused a terrible accident, but recognise your own part in it, and don't try to blame someone else.