Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

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This is all speculation on my part, you know, thinking out loud....

It appears to be an 11 minute drive from the intersection of that lane under the bridge to the cemetery. So, BG could force them by gunpoint in to a car that is parked under that bridge, drive to the cemetery, force them out, say 'guys, down the hill' and the CS is right there, down that hill. Use a handled instrument to commit the murder, never touching them. But there's the problem of the shoe, and rumors of clothing lying about. Speculation of course, not my favorite theory, but I like pondering of out of the box possibilities.

I still tend to think it was down the hill, across the creek, and to the CS, but no record of any mention of anyone getting/being wet, along with that nasty bank across the creek that would need to be scaled, after being wet, and while being in a terrified state of panic.

I'd like to see that bank in person. They would have had to cross the creek in an area that was easy to scale or walk up the other side. I was born and raised in the country, and have had my share of hiking in the woods, through streams, etc. When wet, scaling a vertical or near vertical creek bank that his 3 to 5 feet high, under duress, would prove problematic.

Help me rule out the use of a car to totally escape the bridge area with the girls, to drive around to the cemetery, and go down the hill from there.
 
This is all speculation on my part, you know, thinking out loud....

It appears to be an 11 minute drive from the intersection of that lane under the bridge to the cemetery. So, BG could force them by gunpoint in to a car that is parked under that bridge, drive to the cemetery, force them out, say 'guys, down the hill' and the CS is right there, down that hill. Use a handled instrument to commit the murder, never touching them. But there's the problem of the shoe, and rumors of clothing lying about. Speculation of course, not my favorite theory, but I like pondering of out of the box possibilities.

I still tend to think it was down the hill, across the creek, and to the CS, but no record of any mention of anyone getting/being wet, along with that nasty bank across the creek that would need to be scaled, after being wet, and while being in a terrified state of panic.

I'd like to see that bank in person. They would have had to cross the creek in an area that was easy to scale or walk up the other side. I was born and raised in the country, and have had my share of hiking in the woods, through streams, etc. When wet, scaling a vertical or near vertical creek bank that his 3 to 5 feet high, under duress, would prove problematic.

Help me rule out the use of a car to totally escape the bridge area with the girls, to drive around to the cemetery, and go down the hill from there.
I’ve pondered that scenario, too.
 
This is all speculation on my part, you know, thinking out loud....

It appears to be an 11 minute drive from the intersection of that lane under the bridge to the cemetery. So, BG could force them by gunpoint in to a car that is parked under that bridge, drive to the cemetery, force them out, say 'guys, down the hill' and the CS is right there, down that hill. Use a handled instrument to commit the murder, never touching them. But there's the problem of the shoe, and rumors of clothing lying about. Speculation of course, not my favorite theory, but I like pondering of out of the box possibilities.

I still tend to think it was down the hill, across the creek, and to the CS, but no record of any mention of anyone getting/being wet, along with that nasty bank across the creek that would need to be scaled, after being wet, and while being in a terrified state of panic.

I'd like to see that bank in person. They would have had to cross the creek in an area that was easy to scale or walk up the other side. I was born and raised in the country, and have had my share of hiking in the woods, through streams, etc. When wet, scaling a vertical or near vertical creek bank that his 3 to 5 feet high, under duress, would prove problematic.

Help me rule out the use of a car to totally escape the bridge area with the girls, to drive around to the cemetery, and go down the hill from there.


Picture 5 in this story's slide show has Leazenby looking at a route up from the creek. MOO I see a shoe print in the mud.
The path is sideways up the bank reducing steepness, and it looks not too difficult.
Although it probably was difficult enough to slow them down and get caught.
I think they were trying to get to CR 300 for help.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held
 
Picture 5 in this story's slide show has Leazenby looking at a route up from the creek. MOO I see a shoe print in the mud.
The path is sideways up the bank reducing steepness, and it looks not too difficult.
Although it probably was difficult enough to slow them down and get caught.
I think they were trying to get to CR 300 for help.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held

That indeed appears to be what you speculate it to be. That picture is, well, it makes me sick to my stomach.

What this evil *advertiser censored* did.

carry on.
 
That they asked for Etter's autopsy results suggests a third possibility. Maybe they have semen with no DNA in it, which would tell them that the perp has had a vasectomy.

Even if the guy had a vasectomy there would be DNA.

The human body produces cells to line and protect some of the moist parts of the body (ie. urethral lining of the penis). These cells form a protective layer and have nuclei. Even in males producing absolutely zero sperm.

Not sure if this is still true with advancing technique but it used to be that even if a man was vasectomized there was still semen in his sperm, just so little that it was highly unlikely for a woman to get pregnant.
 
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I’ve become convinced (for the time being ;)) that BG did NOT know he had been recorded, heard Libby’s cell phone ringing when DG first called, then silenced it and left it where it was because he knew time was up and he had to get out of Dodge. I think BG purposefully left Libby’s cell phone because he understood how tracking works. He knew he shouldn’t take it with him and he flat out didn’t have time to destroy it (throw in water, etc). Thinking what’s the harm of leaving it if he didn’t think there was any incriminating evidence on it.

I do think it’s possible he was still trying to leave the scene (clean up, place things the way he wanted it perhaps, etc) when DG had already entered the trails starting to look for the girls.


MOO.
I agree that BG was there after DG was on the trails looking. That was one of the others things said by that caller I spoke of earlier on the GH video. He said (paraphrasing), BG was thought to have been at the scene until 3:45. I've been trying to find that particular GH video with no luck. Looking through his video stuff trying to find the right one is like trying to find the proverbial needle.
 
BBM
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I disagree.
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There are a couple of other possibilities
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The most likely one is that the FBI's profile of BG says that he's a local who maintains a facade of normality and is active in his local church.
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It's also possible that they have mitochondrial DNA of a type that is very common in the caucasian population of central Indiana. That might make them suspect that BG is a local without enabling them to finger a particular suspect.
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That they asked for Etter's autopsy results suggests a third possibility. Maybe they have semen with no DNA in it, which would tell them that the perp has had a vasectomy. That would imply that the perp is married with children--a family man. Single guys rarely get vasectomies.
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They may be clueless; their comments may have been designed to jar the public into eyeing the men around them with suspicion and considering people that they might have written off as a suspect out of hand. It might have been a hail Mary, to borrow from football parlance.
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There are probably many other possibilities that haven't occurred to me. In any event, I don't see anything to suggest that LE has a prime suspect.
Did you mean to say "semen with no sperm in it " rather than semen with no DNA in it? Had Etter had a vasectomy? Do you have link for that?
 
Did you mean to say "semen with no sperm in it " rather than semen with no DNA in it? Had Etter had a vasectomy? Do you have link for that?
Semen with no sperm likely wouldn't have DNA; either way of expressing that would work.
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I have no idea whether Etter had a vasectomy; that was an example of something that could show up in autopsy results.
 
I just mentioned thinking the killer came prepared to contaminate or eradicate the crime scene of his DNA after he killed.

On GH more recent video a caller he seemed to trust with some specific information, said the only DNA LE has is touch DNA from the shoulder of one sweatshirt. He also said LE investigators were very surprised at the lack of DNA at the crime scene.

I can't seem to get this information out of any theories I entertain. It makes sense that cleaning up the scene was all part of this killer's plan since so little has happened with the DNA researching. Something was gleaned but not enough to make an arrest.

Who would come so prepared? Is this now the norm for random killers or even ones who stalk a specific person? LE seems to be dealing with someone who planned. I can't believe he hasn't struck again. AJMO
Jamie Closs' abductor and murderer of her parents came fully prepared to leave no DNA. Two pairs of gloves, completely shaved hair and got the mother to tape Jamie's mouth and hands before he shot her mum in front of her. If this was planned he could have been prepared to leave little trace.
 
Semen with no sperm likely wouldn't have DNA; either way of expressing that would work.
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I have no idea whether Etter had a vasectomy; that was an example of something that could show up in autopsy results.
Even if the guy had a vasectomy there would be DNA.

The human body produces cells to line and protect some of the moist parts of the body (ie. urethral lining of the penis). These cells form a protective layer and have nuclei. Even in males producing absolutely zero sperm.

Not sure if this is still true with advancing technique but it used to be that even if a man was vasectomized there was still semen in his sperm, just so little that it was highly unlikely for a woman to get pregnant.
Thanks for the responses. Here's a link I found. They can still get DNA from the semen if there is no sperm. This article explains.

New DNA weapon to catch rapists
 
Jamie Closs' abductor and murderer of her parents came fully prepared to leave no DNA. Two pairs of gloves, completely shaved hair and got the mother to tape Jamie's mouth and hands before he shot her mum in front of her. If this was planned he could have been prepared to leave little trace.

True.
And careful criminals definitely do all that now.
 
This is all speculation on my part, you know, thinking out loud....

It appears to be an 11 minute drive from the intersection of that lane under the bridge to the cemetery. So, BG could force them by gunpoint in to a car that is parked under that bridge, drive to the cemetery, force them out, say 'guys, down the hill' and the CS is right there, down that hill. Use a handled instrument to commit the murder, never touching them. But there's the problem of the shoe, and rumors of clothing lying about. Speculation of course, not my favorite theory, but I like pondering of out of the box possibilities.

I still tend to think it was down the hill, across the creek, and to the CS, but no record of any mention of anyone getting/being wet, along with that nasty bank across the creek that would need to be scaled, after being wet, and while being in a terrified state of panic.

I'd like to see that bank in person. They would have had to cross the creek in an area that was easy to scale or walk up the other side. I was born and raised in the country, and have had my share of hiking in the woods, through streams, etc. When wet, scaling a vertical or near vertical creek bank that his 3 to 5 feet high, under duress, would prove problematic.

Help me rule out the use of a car to totally escape the bridge area with the girls, to drive around to the cemetery, and go down the hill from there.

Using a vehicle would bring more DNA evidence into the mix.

Just seems to be too much trouble for someone to get them into a vehicle, then drive them to the cemetery. BG would have had to drive 625 south to 200, then east to 425, north on 425, west on 300 then turn into the cemetery.

The other route would have been through town.
 
In fact, LE has stated on several occasions they have DNA.
LE has hinted that they have DNA, but never confirmed. As I pointed out earlier, 1st Sgt Holeman stated at the 2018 CrimeCon, they 'will not deny nor confirm they have DNA'. Sgt Kim Riley stated within the first couple of months that they never said they have DNA.
 
LE has hinted that they have DNA, but never confirmed. As I pointed out earlier, 1st Sgt Holeman stated at the 2018 CrimeCon, they 'will not deny nor confirm they have DNA'. Sgt Kim Riley stated within the first couple of months that they never said they have DNA.

Oh they have flat out stated they have DNA. I don't think anyone is clear how much, or whose, but they have it, UNLESS, this is a lie.....

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence
 
I’ve become convinced (for the time being ;)) that BG did NOT know he had been recorded, heard Libby’s cell phone ringing when DG first called, then silenced it and left it where it was because he knew time was up and he had to get out of Dodge. I think BG purposefully left Libby’s cell phone because he understood how tracking works. He knew he shouldn’t take it with him and he flat out didn’t have time to destroy it (throw in water, etc). Thinking what’s the harm of leaving it if he didn’t think there was any incriminating evidence on it.

I do think it’s possible he was still trying to leave the scene (clean up, place things the way he wanted it perhaps, etc) when DG had already entered the trails starting to look for the girls.


MOO.
1st Sgt Holeman, ISP Lead Investigator, stated in a recent interview that, in his opinion, the killer did not know he had been recorded. So if that was the case, why would he mess with the phone. Although, he would be concerned by a phone ringing that if someone was trying to contact the girls and realize a need to vacate the area ASAP.
 
Oh they have flat out stated they have DNA. I don't think anyone is clear how much, or whose, but they have it, UNLESS, this is a lie.....

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence
It definitely sounds like they're equivocating. Personally, I think that if they had the perp's DNA, then they'd state flat out, "We have the perp's DNA." I don't think they have BG's DNA.
 
Oh they have flat out stated they have DNA. I don't think anyone is clear how much, or whose, but they have it, UNLESS, this is a lie.....

“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence
That comment does not say 'We have DNA." But rather he alludes to the fact that DNA is often found. This quote above is from August 2017.

The interview from the subsequent 2018 CrimeCon, 1st Sgt Holeman states at about 16:30 in the interview that they 'will not deny nor confirm that they have DNA.'
NEWS – Abby and Libby.org
 
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