Questions you'd like answers to...

[Userid]

A 9 yr. old could easily pull an unconscious 6 yr. old by an ankle or wrist.

Agreed, and also, wouldn't the garrotte have made it harder for transport? The handle was incredibly small, and a nine-year-old would need to use both hands. That, in addition to the fact that, he wouldn't even be able to wrap his fingers securely around the handle, since the lace was attached; it would have been awkward.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

Ok, so if the parents did do it, I have one question....why did they stage a second cause of death?

To clarify, if John, Patsy, and/or Burke killed JonBenet (by accident or on purpose) by either strangling her or by a head injury, then why cover it up by either strangling her or hitting her on the head?

Ex:

* Family member(s) kill JonBenet.
* Family member(s) decides to cover it up that they did it.
* To cover it up, family member(s) then further brutalize the already dead body to make it look like it was murdered?

Why would they fake "re-kill" the already murdered body to make it look murdered if it was already murdered?

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thanks.

i dont think the strangulation was staged. i believe she was already strangled when she was found by her parents..

 

[UKGuy]

I think the most important question is, why wouldn't the R's simply frame this as an accident no matter who was responsible?

That is why I think that the strangulation was not staging. You could not frame it as an "accident" with that deep furrow in her neck, it would have been impossible.

And I also believe that the head injury and the strangulation were both done out of anger.

I think the most important question is, why wouldn't the R's simply frame this as an accident no matter who was responsible?

Because children who have accidents are not subject to accompanying sexual assault.

That is why I think that the strangulation was not staging. You could not frame it as an "accident" with that deep furrow in her neck, it would have been impossible.

Coroner Meyer concludes in his autopsy that JonBenet was ligature asphyxiated. A contributing factor was the head injury which reduced oxygen levels, likely leaving JonBenet in a coma?

Depending on what you think about the evidence regarding JonBenet being sexually assaulted. It looks as if JonBenet was sexually assaulted then whacked on the head?

The rest being staging?

From memory the wrist restraints are loose and are on top of her Gap Top, so these look like staging, might be a JR last minute staging effect?

.

 

[Userid]

Because children who have accidents are not subject to accompanying sexual assault.


.

Perhaps, but which assault do you mean, specifically? The prolonged (i.e. months, years) abuse, or the abuse that occurred that night (i.e. "birefringent material")? Because then that opens up another can of worms: whether that injury was staging or not.

 

[UKGuy]

Perhaps, but which assault do you mean, specifically? The prolonged (i.e. months, years) abuse, or the abuse that occurred that night (i.e. "birefringent material")? Because then that opens up another can of worms: whether that injury was staging or not.

Userid,
Patently I'm referring to the acute sexual assault . Any prior sexual assault may or may not be linked to the acute assault.

Here is Kolar's take on this aspect of the case:

Foreign Faction by James Kolar, Excerpt

Following the meeting, Dr. Meyer returned to the morgue with Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team, so that a second opinion could be rendered on the injuries observed to the vaginal area of JonBenét. He would observe the same injuries that Dr. Meyer had noted during the autopsy protocol and concurred that a foreign object had been inserted into the opening of JonBenét’s vaginal orifice and was responsible for the acute injury witnessed at the 7:00 o’clock position.

Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of sexual contact prior to the date of her death.

Dr. Sirontak could not provide an opinion as to how old those injuries were or how many times JonBenét may have been assaulted and would defer to the expert opinions of other medical examiners.

The "birefringent material")? is cellulose, Steve Thomas in his book refers to it as a splinter

Pefect Murder Perfect Town - Part Three: Stories within Stories, Chapter Six

Pathologists had to be consulted to determine if JonBenét’s vaginal injury had taken place before or after her death and, if it was prior, to see if penetration had come from the child herself or from another person. The police would have to track down the origin of a small amount of cellulose* that had been found in JonBenét’s vagina.

The possibility existed that it could have come from the broken paintbrush used for the ligature. The knot on the ligature that acted like a slip-knot also required more investigation.

footnote:
* Cellulose is a carbohydrate of high molecular weight that is the chief constituent of the cell walls of plants. Raw cotton is 91 percent cellulose. Other important natural sources are flax, hemp, jute, straw, and wood.

That JonBenet's cited internal injury is linked to the broken paintbrush does not preclude this injury as an attempt to obscure or stage away an acute sexual assault, perpetrated by another individual.

Less probable but not impossible is that there was an acute sexual assault followed by another post-mortem assault/ritual using the paintbrush or any other item yielding birefringent material or cellulose.

The bottom line is that there was an acute sexual assault, whether this was attempted staging or both is an open question.

But the takeaway is why bother with a staged sexual assault then wipe JonBenet down and hide it beneath layers of clothing?

Even the parents would be aware Intruders do not normally wipe down and redress their victims?

So it looks to me as if the acute sexual assault came first, unless JonBenet's assailant was employing the Ted Bundy tactic of disabling his victim with a first strike hit, usually a head blow?

Either way you still have a sexual assault, and it was this that was being staged away by the parents. As any head blow was invisible to the naked eye, and was only revealed at the autopsy.

.

 

[fr brown]

edpower:

The question you raised has always been a serious problem for RDI theorists, especially for the vast majority who presume the crime started as an accident.

In the original theory of Steve Thomas it is supposed Patsy accidentally caused the head blow. Instead of calling 911 she sought to protect herself by staging an intruder scenario, because she believed JonBenet was already dead.

There are many RDI advocates who find this narrative hard to believe, not least because Patsy and her husband were highly intelligent people who one would expect to be able to determine if their daughter was dead or not. Hence it is common to suppose JonBenet was being sexually molested by someone in the family, and the murder was done to cover this up. This is theoretically possible, but it depends on assumptions to make it work:

1 JonBenet really was being sexually abused. Expert opinion is divided on this.
2 The Ramseys were aware of this abuse.
3 The Ramseys believed the abuse would be discovered if their daughter was taken to the hospital.

There are still others, more common in recent years, who believe Burke did it (either in total or just the head strike by accident) and the parents felt the need to continue with the crime to protect Burke.

Steve Thomas along with James Kolar (originally) think that John slept through the night. Patsy struck JonBenet in anger, the theory goes, so she then has two problems: her sleeping husband and law enforcement.

Staging the crime scene to make it look like John did it would be a natural way to save her own skin, but she would need to be somewhat subtle with it. It would have to be a slow reveal.

 

[Loulani]

Thanks for the reply. But this is what I mean...she's hit in the head, so they decide to then violently strangle her ON TOP OF THAT?

Why? She was hit in the head already, and she wasn't dead, why not fake an accident instead and call 911 saying she has a head injury?

I apologize if this is me just being slow, but the the family memeber(s) thought pattern is/are:

"Ok, she's hit in the head. Let's not call 911 and..."

And what? Drag her down stairs. Ok, Then what? Eventually they came to the idea:

"Well, we'll need to violently strangle her too."

And my question is why? If she's dead form the head injury, you don't need to strangle her, and if she isn't dead, why kill then her, and why with a violent strangulation?

I agree with David Rogers here. She was hit in the head and then dragged into hiding. I think she stole some pineapple, got hit with the flashlight by Burke as punishment for her "crime" and then he dragged her body into hiding to hide from his parents what he did. The latter caused her death. I dunno if Burke knew fully well what he is doing and what the consequences are (that she's strangled to death while he dragged her with that handle he built), but I have no other explanation to what happened and why the cover-up happened. Because yes, if it was an accident, a real accident, then i think they would have called an ambulance. Except when they found her dead already.

 

[Loulani]

It is for this reason that I believe the strangulation was a part of the original assault and crime and not a part of the following cover up. I don't personally believe Patsy or John did anything to Jonbenet's body other than tying her wrists, placing tape on her mouth, and wrapping her in a blanket. I believe James Kolar believes the same, and I do tend to trust his theory given that he has seen a lot of evidence that we have not

I think so too. I also think that she was molested by her brother.

 

[Loulani]

If someone wanted to drag her they could easily have just pulled her by her arm or ankle.

Not if you are an almost 10 year old that learned specific ways during his boy scouting on how to drag heavy objects.

 

[Swirlz]

I doubt the Boy Scouts teaches kids how to drag their fellow humans by the neck. The ligature furrow was horizontal. If the body had been dragged by the neck, the cord would've come up around the upper neck, below the jaw.

 

[David Rogers]

I doubt the Boy Scouts teaches kids how to drag their fellow humans by the neck. The ligature furrow was horizontal. If the body had been dragged by the neck, the cord would've come up around the upper neck, below the jaw.

No, but they do teach you how to drag firewood with a rope.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

imo, i am not convinced the pineapple incident triggered the headblow. to me, it was only part of the sequence of events leading to her death. there is more in the items found near the body that the police should look into...

 

[dcountmontecristo]

if she was dragged by the cord in her neck, the neck bone should be broken but the autopsy told otherwise.

 

[10ofRods]

I don't believe there's evidence that JBR was "dragged" down the stairs (that would leave pretty obvious forensic evidence).

The blow to the head was fatal. That's the listed cause of death, with a secondary contributing factor (strangulation). She would have died from the head blow (the object used has never been found or determined; maglite flashlight, toilet bowl edge, golf club were all theorized by various parties in the months after JBR's death).

If JBR had died from a blow to her head and was found in the same room as that blow occurred, with no staging, then it would have looked even more like one of the family members did it. There would have been less confusion. JBR would have had to die in either her own room, or in some other room in the house (such as the kitchen, where it is clear that she was eating pineapple - despite Patsy not remembering this snack). If she was struck when already in the basement and there's no sign of forced entry (and there isn't), then...how could that come about? Sounds like a deranged punishment or abuse scenario. If she was struck on the head while in or near her own room (for which there is no evidence except that the comforter and sham that were on her bed were also moved to the basement), that's very likely a parent/punishment scenario.

Burke's fingerprints are also on the pineapple bowl. So, if she was struck in the kitchen, perhaps it was not one of her parents. When friends arrive, they clean the kitchen.

Patsy's mtDNA (which is also the mtDNA of Burke) is found on two components of the garotte. The suitcase with the comforter in it was usually stored in a second floor bedroom (guest bedroom belonging to John Andrew). Someone found that suitcase and took it downstairs (before or after putting the bedding inside). To my knowledge, no stranger DNA was ever found on the bedding (but of course, various Ramsey DNA would be explainable as non-nefarious if any evidence could be found that the stranger was the suitcase user).

The medical examiner's report seems to me to indicate some form of chronic sexual abuse.

So...it's an unsolved case. Evidence was mishandled and even destroyed in the early hours. The Ramseys would go on to point a finger of blame at many people, including their good friends (the Whites). For whatever reason, the two adults would hire separate attorneys. They hired others to try and aid in their own defense (they were indicted by Grand Jury in 1999 and successfully and politically got that quashed in an unusual legal move), but they did not hire well known PI's who specialize in stranger abduction. Since everyone apparently believed that whoever the perp was, that perp had pretty good knowledge of the layout of the Ramsey home and that the perp was in the house for a very long time (compared to other crimes of this type), the stranger was assumed to be someone local or with some kind of access to the home.

The perp must also have had overheard or otherwise had knowledge of John Ramsey's 2018 Christmas bonus...a venn diagram will show why the Ramseys fall under suspicion each time a new person looks at the case. Doesn't mean they did it but it does keep them on the list of suspects.

 

[10ofRods]

i dont think the strangulation was staged. i believe she was already strangled when she was found by her parents..

She wasn't found "by her parents." She was found by one parent (John) and his friend.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

She wasn't found "by her parents." She was found by one parent (John) and his friend.

i believe I was stating my theory early hours before the 911 call.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

Patsy's mtDNA (which is also the mtDNA of Burke) is found on two components of the garotte.

sorry but the dna report told otherwise.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

To my knowledge, no stranger DNA was ever found on the bedding (but of course, various Ramsey DNA would be explainable as non-nefarious if any evidence could be found that the stranger was the suitcase user).

i believe the bedding was never tested for dna so logically noone would ever know

 

[David Rogers]

if she was dragged by the cord in her neck, the neck bone should be broken but the autopsy told otherwise.

You can’t say this without some tests. You have no idea what she might have been laying on when she was dragged or what she was wearing or what the floor covering was that could have slid with little effort. There are too many unknowns to make a statement like that.

 

[dcountmontecristo]

You can’t say this without some tests. You have no idea what she might have been laying on when she was dragged or what she was wearing or what the floor covering was that could have slid with little effort. There are too many unknowns to make a statement like that.

test can be useless if it cant be supported by the body evidence from the autopsy.. you have also no idea if she was really dragged or not... i believe the evidence should be the one that is telling you the story, not the other way around.