Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[tresir2012]

When I enlarged that #5 photo I noticed, on the right side, a somewhat blurry line running from top to bottom. At first I thought the area of the bank right there was crumbling because it looked like the dirt was in motion with a stop action blur. But in zooming out again, I think it's a blade of some vegetation in front of the camera lens causing it. So photographer was probably across the creek a distance away, maybe squatted down, probably trying not to be noticed and chased away.

I also see spots/areas of the bank in front of the investigator where it looks disturbed and possible foot hold marks going up the bank. AJMO and my eyes.

It looks like a cobweb or spider strand. I also see what looks like twin atv tracks but it could be long shadows of trees perhaps. Anyone else see that?

 

[sunshineray]

Carter's words were strong enough on their own. One would think that seeing victims of strangulation or bludgeoning wouldn't faze him. Something truly horrific must have been done to the girls, but what? If the killer had taken any body parts with him, would we have heard? (I'm thinking of Ed Gein, who took skin from his victims or from graves that he robbed.)

I think two sweet young girls dead by homicide is enough to remember for the rest of your life. I'm sure the picture of the scene is thought of daily by ISP Carter because there's no closure of the case yet.

 

[Boxer]

I read a lot of the posts regarding DNA, and as a person who works on cold cases and does a little for the detectives on active cases, I can tell you that DNA is fragile, touch DNA is extremely hard to get and is in most cases, "not enough" to get any real results. TV and crime shows have given the public a false image of this technology for most of the cases. You have to have enough DNA to work with. Sometimes you only have DNA from the mother's side, because the father's side degrades quickly and does not stand up to elements. So now you have to have some one or another sample to compare to the mother's DNA. Sometimes you have enough to put into CODIS, but not what these other labs need to do Genealogy testing. DNA comes from blood, hair, bone, semen, skin cells, urine if there are skin cells, same with spit. All of the these samples are volatile. It depends on where you found them, how long they were out in the elements and if (in the case of hair) you have a root. If you have a root, then you get both "X & Y" A full profile. Same with a tooth, if you have pulp and it is not too degraded you get your profile. Partial profiles don't go to CODIS the national, they go to the State Labs, and they don't get searched unless you ask to search them. Not all states have them. So if they got DNA, they are not saying what kind, what shape, condition, because they don't want to "show their hand". There are new tests, but they are very expensive and your budget has to cover it. Hope this helps.

MOO I have thought they should have a voluntary one use DNA drive downtown.

 

[sunshineray]

Possibly BG was spitting tobacco off the side, and the video shows that, and they did recover DNA from the spot.

Boxer, They did recover DNA from what spot, the bridge?

 

[Boxer]

I read a lot of the posts regarding DNA, and as a person who works on cold cases and does a little for the detectives on active cases, I can tell you that DNA is fragile, touch DNA is extremely hard to get and is in most cases, "not enough" to get any real results. TV and crime shows have given the public a false image of this technology for most of the cases. You have to have enough DNA to work with. Sometimes you only have DNA from the mother's side, because the father's side degrades quickly and does not stand up to elements. So now you have to have some one or another sample to compare to the mother's DNA. Sometimes you have enough to put into CODIS, but not what these other labs need to do Genealogy testing. DNA comes from blood, hair, bone, semen, skin cells, urine if there are skin cells, same with spit. All of the these samples are volatile. It depends on where you found them, how long they were out in the elements and if (in the case of hair) you have a root. If you have a root, then you get both "X & Y" A full profile. Same with a tooth, if you have pulp and it is not too degraded you get your profile. Partial profiles don't go to CODIS the national, they go to the State Labs, and they don't get searched unless you ask to search them. Not all states have them. So if they got DNA, they are not saying what kind, what shape, condition, because they don't want to "show their hand". There are new tests, but they are very expensive and your budget has to cover it. Hope this helps.

MOO I have thought they should have a voluntary one use DNA drive downtown.

 

[Boxer]

Boxer, They did recover DNA from what spot, the bridge?

Somehow my answer was split off from the post that I was commenting on, what I meant to say was that the reason they didn't release the video was there was the spitting motion and they didn't want to unnecessarily alert the suspect but they were able to find the chew spit.

But this is just speculation on my part as to why they didn't release the whole BG video immediately, and what changed for them to release it.
I have no idea what changed other than MOO they seem to be trying to rattle someone's confidence.
But the police finding the chew spit is pure speculation.

 

[Skully]

MOO I have thought they should have a voluntary one use DNA drive downtown.

That would be helpful, if only to eliminate anyone in town that they may suspect. It helps to narrow down the list of POI.

 

[Skully]

Ozoner said: ↑
Carter's words were strong enough on their own. One would think that seeing victims of strangulation or bludgeoning wouldn't faze him.

Well I can tell you that he would be affected by these things, unless he is made of stone. Unless you have seen victims up close the at a crime scene you have no idea. The fact that these two innocent lives were taken in such a cruel and horrible way is enough to affect any LE or just a person in general. It does faze them, even if it is the first time to see it or the 100th time to see it. Evil is evil and two little girls are dead, because this hunted them down and destroyed them and their families. I don't want to speculate on how they died, it does no good here. It won't help here.

 

[Torch Carrier]

Hey why is Gray Hughes the only youtuber we can cite here? The kid in me says, "No Fair!" Several others are doing a great job such as in particular the Nov 18 & Dec 7 YouTube videos by Harvey Carroll and even Ant Greeno had a very good Call IN show on Dec 5th. Check them out! Why does GH have a monopoly on YT coverage as far as WS is concerned? I see no reason that he should be permitted here and others not. Some of these others are getting much closer to helping crack things wide open whereas he is so often dismissive and rude.

 

[taximama24]

Somehow my answer was split off from the post that I was commenting on, what I meant to say was that the reason they didn't release the video was there was the spitting motion and they didn't want to unnecessarily alert the suspect but they were able to find the chew spit.

I like this train of thought quite a bit, it would make sense that they wouldn't release it until they were sure they had succeeded in collecting the sample.

 

[Charlot123]

I think he wore gloves.


MOO I don't think she was still alive when the phone rang.
But he knew it was time to go then.

Sometimes I wonder if he were a cleaner. You know, offices, windows, mabye Indiana Packers? Cleaners have all this stuff to get rid of the DNA by default, and cleaners are like mailmen - always around, but easily forgotten.

Excellent post! Gives a great opportunity for a guy to speculate

MOO,

That he clearly states his belief the killer was close by, 100 percent convinced the killer was watching. Well, I don't interpret that as meaning the killer was in Indianapolis, or Lafayette, in particular when keeping in mind "We also believe this person is from Delphi- currently, or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis, or works here."

I think the killer holds a position, likely a position of authority, in the community, has a job in Delphi, and is someone absolutely least likely to be suspect.

It appears the manner of death to be unique, such that few, if not ONLY one person would know the details.

The question that comes to my mind is, he implies there was a reason why they did not release the video earlier.....so what changed, in that, they eventually could release it?

i don’t think the killer himself does. It would be difficult for the person to slip out if he were an authority.

Either the relative of an authority, or a rich guy living on the outskirts, in a mansion with servants? This could be totally possible.

 

[sunsetbeach]

Jump to 3:19 in this video, does that sound familiar? It should. He said almost the same thing in the Delphi case.

9:07 in this video

Two BIG cases in Carroll County that are going ... nowhere.

Something is very wrong in that county.

 

[sunsetbeach]

Yes thanks Peppery.
Not certain it is Leazenby, though MOO this man has a mustache and looks like him to me.
Also "footprint" is of course my opinion only. For me it is about the placement of it, I see a ridge right where a man would put his foot to push off up the embankment.
I see what looks like a boot print

Both photos were taken the day the girls were found. The guy in the blue shirt does not have a mustache.

 

[Boxer]

Jump to 3:19 in this video, does that sound familiar? It should. He said almost the same thing in the Delphi case.

9:07 in this video

Two BIG cases in Carroll County that are going ... nowhere.

Something is very wrong in that county.

Yes agree. Those Flora girls lived next door to the landlords brother who was beating his wife and someone reported it.
On the opposite corner of the Pizza King where a meth dealer was running the business and molesting his daughter.
Like Abby and Liberty there were lots of marginal people surrounding them.

Both photos were taken the day the girls were found. The guy in the blue shirt does not have a mustache.

I guess the shadow looked a mustache to me.

 

[Charlot123]

I read a lot of the posts regarding DNA, and as a person who works on cold cases and does a little for the detectives on active cases, I can tell you that DNA is fragile, touch DNA is extremely hard to get and is in most cases, "not enough" to get any real results. TV and crime shows have given the public a false image of this technology for most of the cases. You have to have enough DNA to work with. Sometimes you only have DNA from the mother's side, because the father's side degrades quickly and does not stand up to elements. So now you have to have some one or another sample to compare to the mother's DNA. Sometimes you have enough to put into CODIS, but not what these other labs need to do Genealogy testing. DNA comes from blood, hair, bone, semen, skin cells, urine if there are skin cells, same with spit. All of the these samples are volatile. It depends on where you found them, how long they were out in the elements and if (in the case of hair) you have a root. If you have a root, then you get both "X & Y" A full profile. Same with a tooth, if you have pulp and it is not too degraded you get your profile. Partial profiles don't go to CODIS the national, they go to the State Labs, and they don't get searched unless you ask to search them. Not all states have them. So if they got DNA, they are not saying what kind, what shape, condition, because they don't want to "show their hand". There are new tests, but they are very expensive and your budget has to cover it. Hope this helps.

Having maternal (mitochondrial) DNA is not bad. It is very sturdy. In the case of exhumation of the remains of the last Russian tzar and his family - in 1918, lye was poured on the corpses, and then they were burned. So how much would charred bones tell you?

They identified the skull of Nicholas II by comparing his maternal DNA (mitochondrial) with that of his British relative, one of direct maternal descendants of Queen Alexandra, the wife of Edward VII and mother of George V. She and the mother of Nicholas II, Tzarina Maria Fyodorovna (Dagmar) were two sisters, two Danish princesses. That was enough.


Mitochondria are abundant and found in all cells. Likewise, they are found in hair shaft. Granted, they have smaller DNA and to trace direct maternal line might be a hassle, but it is hard to find a match that would be out of the family. I did own mito group and my uncle’s one, too. It is the commonest one, you can’t find anything more banal than that, but we have one private mutation that turned it from very common to very uncommon.

Of course it takes money, but not that much. Full mito sequence is pretty cheap.

DNA comes from all cells in the body. LE just needs to work with geneticists, because LE knows exactly the same we all do. Geneticists know much more.

ETA: there are two types of DNA in the cell, “nuclear” - our genetic code - and mitochondrial, coming from the “power stations” in the cell, the mitochondria. Mitochondria are viewed as once-bacterias that were hosted by the first cell in the process of evolution. Today, they are the “power stations” of the cell. They have own DNA, shorter and smaller than nuclear one. This DNA comes only from the mother - think of how fertilization happens. Essentially, the father supplies only 23 chromosomes, the rest in the embryo comes from the egg.

 

[sunsetbeach]

Possibly BG was spitting tobacco off the side, and the video shows that, and they did recover DNA from the spot.

I’m pretty sure I read (recently) a news article or it could have been a news video that said evidence was collected from the bridge. Ima see if I can find that.

 

[stattlich1]

Two BIG cases in Carroll County that are going ... nowhere.

Something is very wrong in that county.

Yes indeed.

 

[Falcon500]

Yes indeed.

You folks keep forgetting that both cases are being handled by the Indiana State Police.

 

[Fizzle]

Maybe Etter had a family connection to Delphi? Delphi and Lafayette aren't that far apart. I guess it could also go to whether LE thinks there could have been two involved with Delphi murders? Didn't I read somewhere that Etter communicated through social media when he was on the lamb? Maybe something he said sparked interest in Delphi investigators?

Not sure about Delphi connection, but he didn't live far away at all and I'd bet he was familiar with the trails. He definitely used SM and I am sure that some of his posts drew the attention of LE.

 

[303gmf]

You folks keep forgetting that both cases are being handled by the Indiana State Police.

This “folk” didn’t forget!