GUILTY NJ - Detective Joseph Seals, slain, 5 others killed including 2 suspects, Jersey City, 9 Dec 2019

[MassGuy]

I wonder when she left her job.

So my assessment so far: she was a home health aide, so not making that much to begin with. She got injured on the job and had to go on disability by the sound of it. I know a couple of people on disability in NY/NJ, and disability benefits have been reduced for a lot of people in the past couple of years, so that could have contributed to her becoming resentful and feeling hopeless. She likely lost her condo due to those financial problems. She also likely didn't have much of an existing emotional support system in terms of family, etc.

This guy comes into her life. My guess is he was sort of a narcissist type with her being a dependent type (kind of similar to the DC Snipers). He has an extensive prior criminal history; she doesn't (as far as we know). He becomes increasingly influential over her as her life circumstances continue to decline. Saying stuff like "we can't get ahead in life because of this and that group of people taking all the resources, I got arrested for no reason because of corrupt cops," etc. Typical rhetoric in these types of cases. She increasingly believes it, because it's easier for many people to blame their problems on an easily identifiable group rather than an unclear interaction of multiple personal and societal factors. To say "I can do X and Y to get revenge for my problems and leave some sort of legacy" as opposed to feeling powerless.

Something spurs them from rhetoric to action -- likely at least several months beforehand, because it would take time to come up with the plan and acquire the weapons.

JMO.

Works for me. My guess is that she was the one to purchase those firearms, and they were likely bought in a neighboring state.

That, or he bought them illegally (which
would be much more expensive).

He drove this plot, I have no doubt about that.

Now that this is actually making sense, and looking like a hate crime/domestic terrorism, I’m just glad the number of fatalities wasn’t much higher.

These two had the tools to inflict far more carnage, but were apparently quite incompetent.

 

[fred&edna]

So... What do these killers have in common with the murdered man in car trunk??? Any thoughts/info??

 

[dotr]

rbbm.
Jersey City Shooters Identified, Were Prime Suspects in Other Homicide
"New Jersey law enforcement leaders confirmed Wednesday afternoon Graham and Anderson were the prime suspects in a Bayonne homicide that authorities in Jersey City also had been investigating.

Law enforcement sources had no immediate personal details on Graham, but a neighbor tells News 4 she lived near him for years."

Getty Images/Handout
Multiple law enforcement sources identify this man as David Anderson, a suspect in the Jersey City shootout that killed three civilians and a veteran police detective.
"The neighbor also claims Graham was coerced into a militant religion he could not identify; chanting and reading of the New Testament, translated into "evil," could be heard from her home, he said. A year ago, the neighbor says Graham stopped paying her condo fees and left. Jersey City tells News 4 the mortgage was assumed by a bank in November 2018."

"New Jersey Department of Corrections records show that Anderson faced weapons offenses in 2004, 2007 and 2011 and spent time in jail.

He also faced a criminal mischief charge in Ohio in 2009, according to court records."
"The barrage of gunfire -- at least 100 bullets -- locked down all Jersey City public schools for hours Tuesday."

 

[NJSleuth91]

I think either there was a grudge (on top of the antisemitism) - maybe they (thought they) were made to feel uncomfortable at this store?

That's what I'm thinking too. Maybe not even that they were made to feel uncomfortable but just that maybe they fixated on it as a symbol of "their neighborhood being taken over," as they would see it. It sounds like they both may have lived in the area.

Works for me. My guess is that she was the one to purchase those firearms, and they were likely bought in a neighboring state.

That, or he bought them illegally (which would be much more expensive).

He drove this plot, I have no doubt about that.

He did have a number of weapons charges though so it's possible he obtained them illegally. It's definitely possible he used her for resources though.

I wonder where the other victim (Michael Rumberger) fits into this. He has a last name that sounds kind of Jewish but I'm not sure he actually was (could also just be of German ancestry), and you wouldn't be able to tell he was by looking at him (ie. no obvious religious manner of dress, etc.)

Now that this is actually making sense, and looking like a hate crime/domestic terrorism, I’m just glad the number of fatalities wasn’t much higher.

These two had the tools to inflict far more carnage, but were apparently quite incompetent.

Yeah for all the preparation they did and all the hundreds of rounds they fired and building operational bombs, they really were very incompetent, weren't they? And we are all happy about that.

I feel like these two also SEVERELY underestimated the law enforcement capability of Jersey City. That may have been one reason why they picked a target in a poor neighborhood of Jersey City as opposed to somewhere in New York.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

The murder the night before, the officer being killed in the cemetery, the U Haul, pipe bomb and the focused attack on the deli. I still feel like there’s more to the story.

 

[MassGuy]

That's what I'm thinking too. Maybe not even that they were made to feel uncomfortable but just that maybe they fixated on it as a symbol of "their neighborhood being taken over," as they would see it. It sounds like they both may have lived in the area.



He did have a number of weapons charges though so it's possible he obtained them illegally. It's definitely possible he used her for resources though.

I wonder where the other victim (Michael Rumberger) fits into this. He has a last name that sounds kind of Jewish but I'm not sure he actually was (could also just be of German ancestry), and you wouldn't be able to tell he was by looking at him (ie. no obvious religious manner of dress, etc.)



Yeah for all the preparation they did and all the hundreds of rounds they fired and building operational bombs, they really were very incompetent, weren't they? And we are all happy about that.

I feel like these two also SEVERELY underestimated the law enforcement capability of Jersey City. That may have been one reason why they picked a target in a poor neighborhood of Jersey City as opposed to somewhere in New York.

Yeah, that last name sounded Jewish to me so I looked it up, but as you say, it has German origins.

I’m still leaning towards his death being motivated by hate, whether they were ultimately right or wrong about that victim being Jewish. A robbery doesn’t make a ton of sense, but I guess it’s possible.

Once these two were cornered, they were done for. I’m just glad they didn’t inflict a higher casualty count before that occurred, fast as it was.

 

[dotr]

What We Know About the Jersey City Shooting Victims, Including a Father-of-5 and a Young Mother

This undated photo provided by Chai Lifeline shows Moshe Deutsch, who was killed Tuesday, Dec. 10, 2019, in Jersey City, N.J. Deutsch, a 24-year-old rabbinical student from Brooklyn, was one of three people who died when gunmen, targeting a kosher grocery where he was shopping, opened fire.
AP

 

[dotr]

Jersey City shooters were suspects in murder of Uber driver in Bayonne, AG says
"Grewal said Anderson and Graham were also suspected in a weekend killing of an Uber driver in Bayonne."

"Meanwhile, police warned of fake fundraising sites created in the wake of the rampage."

Jersey City shooting revealed on surveillance camera footage | Daily Mail Online
MYSTERY OF UBER DRIVER'S DEATH

Graham and Anderson were the prime suspects in the December 7 murder of Michael Rumberger who was found stuffed in the trunk of a town car in Bayonne, NJ.

It is unclear how he knew Graham and Anderson if at all.

Police say he had suffered trauma to the head and was beaten to death.

Detective Seals was investigating his death when he came across Graham and Anderson in the cemetery.

He was drawn to them because of the U-Haul they were driving which is, in some way, connected to Rumberger's killing.

Rumberger, 34, was a father of two daughters. His family is now grieving.

 

[fred&edna]

RSBM
This is what I was trying to ask in my previous post... You did a better job! Why would these two have killed Rumberger? *Also, has anyone noticed the name Molino associated with him (Rumberger)?

I wonder where the other victim (Michael Rumberger) fits into this. He has a last name that sounds kind of Jewish but I'm not sure he actually was (could also just be of German ancestry), and you wouldn't be able to tell he was by looking at him (ie. no obvious religious manner of dress, etc.)


.

 

[MassGuy]

RSBM
This is what I was trying to ask in my previous post... You did a better job! Why would these two have killed Rumberger? *Also, has anyone noticed the name Molino associated with him (Rumberger)?

I see “Molina.” What’s the significance though?

 

[fred&edna]

I see “Molina.” What’s the significance though?

I dunno. I'm trying to put the puzzle together but I don't have all the pieces... Or pieces from a different puzzle.

 

[dotr]

RSBM
This is what I was trying to ask in my previous post... You did a better job! Why would these two have killed Rumberger? *Also, has anyone noticed the name Molino associated with him (Rumberger)?

Rumberger's daughter?
Daughter of Jersey City man found dead in Bayonne fundraising for his funeral | Hudson County View
"Unfortunately my dad was taken from me. Nobody wants to see somebody die [.] Nobody wants to see the man that gave them life, the man that taught them everything to this day die. I wish I had just a couple more minutes with my dad to tell him how I felt,” Dynasia Molina, the daughter of Michael Rumberger, wrote"

 

[fred&edna]

Rumberger's daughter?
Daughter of Jersey City man found dead in Bayonne fundraising for his funeral | Hudson County View
"Unfortunately my dad was taken from me. Nobody wants to see somebody die [.] Nobody wants to see the man that gave them life, the man that taught them everything to this day die. I wish I had just a couple more minutes with my dad to tell him how I felt,” Dynasia Molina, the daughter of Michael Rumberger, wrote"

I noticed that but I also saw "MR aka MM" that puzzled me. Probably nothing... I'm easily puzzled

 

[LadyL]

at the beginning of this video, you see a person come from the bottom right and cross the street, then run toward the market that was targeted - he dips into a doorway just as the shooters approach

can anyone tell if he enters the targeted store or a different doorway??

 

[Cryptic]

I’m also wondering if their ages are wrong, as I expect them to be older than “juvenile” age.

Good call.

Both shooters appear to be middle aged.

This places them in the same demographic group as most of their white counter parts (as another poster pointed out, Black Israelites and white Christian Identity adherents have identical ideologies- just very different views on who “real” Israelites are and which ethnicity / race is “superior”).

The ideological irony aside, indoctrinated youth terrorists are pretty rare in the US. Rather, most but not all, native born terrorists are middle aged and discovered their cause after “failing at life”.

My guess is that the lead extremist will have a history of employment problems, frequent job changes amongst low skill positions, trouble maintaining relationships with the opposite sex etc. Frustrated, he discovers a cause that gives him purpose in an otherwise failed life…. .

 

[Cryptic]

Why would these two have killed Rumberger?

As the terrorists were motivated by racism / ethnic supremacy, my guess is that while they were primarily attacking Jews, they were also inclined to target other non black ethnic groups as well.

Thus whites, asians, hispanics- even other blacks if they were perceived as not being "fully" black or perceived as "traitors" were all at risk if the primary victims were not available.

 

[Hatfield]

The murder the night before, the officer being killed in the cemetery, the U Haul, pipe bomb and the focused attack on the deli. I still feel like there’s more to the story.

Re BBM

Yeah I think there is more to learn about how this all happened.

JMO
Just guessing as to what I think happened based on what we know so far. Similar to some other viewpoints.

I think the 2 perps were getting prepared for some more major homegrown terror attacks on certain people/places near their community and that the 1st LE officer that was shot was an unexpected thing which forced the 2 perps to activate their plan prematurely.

I think they had already killed at least one other individual and so they probably had a plan that if any LE officer tried to arrest them that they would go on a suicide mission to inflict as much damage to their "enemies" as possible before they were taken out.

I think they realized they would die in the process once they went into the Deli. At least I am thinking that he was aware of that but maybe he didnt let the female know that the plan would never allow them to come out alive.

The way they went into the Deli looked like a suicide mission to me because they would be cornered in there. They knew LE would arrive soon and that there would be a shootout and they probably knew they would go down fighting with LE. Because once they killed the officer in the cemetary they knew there would not be a lot of patience with other officers arriving to weed them out.

Anyway, thats kind of how I envisioned this all went down. A somewhat unexpected and unprepared premature attack on the community and LE which started because they were being confronted by a LE officer while they were already suspects in another killing.

The day's events, as awful as they were, may have been a lot worse if that first officer had not confronted them and unfortunately paid the ultimate price. His efforts probably prevented more serious and more specific planned attacks that these 2 disturbed individuals had been planning.

 

[Hatfield]

at the beginning of this video, you see a person come from the bottom right and cross the street, then run toward the market that was targeted - he dips into a doorway just as the shooters approach

can anyone tell if he enters the targeted store or a different doorway??

JMO
I had the same question about the individual that appears at the bottom and runs toward the store before running away after the 2 perps get there.

Thanks for pointing out that he first came from across the street. He was running the whole time and I wondered what he was doing.

I think he may have just been delivering something to the place to the left of the place where the two perps went in. I looked carefully and the door the person tried to go in was not the same door the 2 perps went to. The 2 perps went into a door which is just to the right of the door that the single person running was going to.

I think that running person is just another innocent bystander who was delivering something (maybe lunch order?) to the place to the left of the perps building they went in.

The reason he is running is probably due to the rain because one of the cars on the street had its windshield wipers on. So I think he was innocently running to avoid rain.

 

[epiphany]

at the beginning of this video, you see a person come from the bottom right and cross the street, then run toward the market that was targeted - he dips into a doorway just as the shooters approach

can anyone tell if he enters the targeted store or a different doorway??

He appeared to be next door to the targeted store before he becomes aware of the danger.

Size and movement of the figure appears to me that he may be a child or of pre-adolescent age.

 

[epiphany]

Terrifying and chilling video!

Did the male begin shooting through the store door from the street/sidewalk before he actually entered?