Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[Evinrude]

I know what im going to say has been discussed at some point, if BG was in the water at all, he would have possibly been exposes to hypothermia. Cold water like that would lower the bodies core temperature very fast and also possibly had feet/ankle cramps. No way he can walk normal after that with wet shoes/boots. Or did he waiters? Sp. or maybe he didnt go in the water.
who can be our “crash test dummy” and simulate this for our WS community?

i cannot as it is well below zero where my frigid cave is.

Btw......whats up with all the typos? Everything I type is messed up

 

[almagata]

I've looked closely at what might be similar crimes going back 20-25 years in IN and nearby states. These types of crimes are rare, to say the least. Murders in broad daylight on walking/hiking trails are rare enough, a set of crimes involving the murders of two juveniles on or near a trail in broad daylight is rarer, still. Usually outdoor daylight abductions in rural areas happen along roadways, again, even those are rare.

This is an extremely dangerous individual, and I often wonder what other crimes he has done and/or may be be capable of. If he's targeted people on trails in the region, he must be familiar with those trails and how those trails benefit his quickly getting on to and off of them to commit his crimes.

JMO

I tend to believe that Abby and Libby were BG's first murders and that BG did not know the girls.

What we do know about murderers who are not domestic violence motivated is that they often have or will commit other crimes. They can be little crimes like shoplifting or they can be burglary, robbery, assault, or another murder.

Assuming BG is local to the area, a good pool of suspects would be people who have been arrested in the surrounding area over the year prior to the attacks up to the present day.

A possible investigative strategy would be to pull a report of all the people in Carroll,Tippecanoe and Cass counties who have been arrested for a crime from 2/13/16-12/11/19. Then start filtering that list.

1. Remove any females.
2. Remove any men older than 40 on 2/13/17.
3. Remove any men younger than 18 on 2/13/17.
4. Remove any men who are Asian, Native American, African American, dark skinned Latino, Indian or middle eastern.
5. Remove any men taller than 6'1".
6. Remove any men shorter than 5'5".
7. Remove men that were in jail on 2/13/17.
8. Remove men that had obvious facial tattoos as of 2/13/17.
9. Remove men that had any disability like an arm or leg amputation as of 2/13/17.

Prioritize for first review:
1. Men who attended Delphi Community High School.
2. Men who have a history of assault or sexual assault.
3. Men who have a history of mental illness.
4. Men who were in their 20's 2/13/17.
5. Men that have family in Delphi.
6. Men who have a history of unstable employment.
7. Men that did not own a car on 2/13/17.

Note: if there was SA then the history of the perpetrator having mental illness is less likely and and if there was no SA it makes it more likely that the perpetrator has mental illness so that detail would be further used refine the pool of men to prioritize for review.

My guess is that there will be less than twenty men that will fit in the first review list and BG would be on it.

MOO

 

[stattlich1]

Assuming BG is local to the area, a good pool of suspects would be people who have been arrested in the surrounding area over the year prior to the attacks up to the present day.
MOO

One of the recent vids posted on this thread includes an interview with a LE officer in which it became rather apparent to me that the killer likely has no prior arrests. MOO

 

[almagata]

One of the recent vids posted on this thread includes an interview with a LE officer in which it became rather apparent to me that the killer likely has no prior arrests. MOO

Indiana did not start collecting DNA from people arrested for felonies until after the Delphi murders. They still would not collect DNA for a misdemeanor arrest.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I

I have a phonebook and looked of “hitman” for the Delphi and immediate area. I found nothing for that area. Makes me think it wasnt hired out.

Could it be someone within the general vicinity -- say Lafayette or Indy? (again JMOO, and probably just a crazy idea...)

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I tend to believe that Abby and Libby were BG's first murders and that BG did not know the girls.

What we do know about murderers who are not domestic violence motivated is that they often have or will commit other crimes. They can be little crimes like shoplifting or they can be burglary, robbery, assault, or another murder.

Assuming BG is local to the area, a good pool of suspects would be people who have been arrested in the surrounding area over the year prior to the attacks up to the present day.

A possible investigative strategy would be to pull a report of all the people in Carroll,Tippecanoe and Cass counties who have been arrested for a crime from 2/13/16-12/11/19. Then start filtering that list.

1. Remove any females.
2. Remove any men older than 40 on 2/13/17.
3. Remove any men younger than 18 on 2/13/17.
4. Remove any men who are Asian, Native American, African American, dark skinned Latino, Indian or middle eastern.
5. Remove any men taller than 6'1".
6. Remove any men shorter than 5'5".
7. Remove men that were in jail on 2/13/17.
8. Remove men that had obvious facial tattoos as of 2/13/17.
9. Remove men that had any disability like an arm or leg amputation as of 2/13/17.

Prioritize for first review:
1. Men who attended Delphi Community High School.
2. Men who have a history of assault or sexual assault.
3. Men who have a history of mental illness.
4. Men who were in their 20's 2/13/17.
5. Men that have family in Delphi.
6. Men who have a history of unstable employment.
7. Men that did not own a car on 2/13/17.

Note: if there was SA then the history of the perpetrator having mental illness is less likely and and if there was no SA it makes it more likely that the perpetrator has mental illness so that detail would be further used refine the pool of men to prioritize for review.

My guess is that there will be less than twenty men that will fit in the first review list and BG would be on it.

MOO

@almagata, great list of filters! Should help to at least narrow down the possibilities.

 

[Boxer]

Thank you for posting this. There are 173 comments, which I read most of... I'm mystified by your comment.

A number of people have suggested BG was turning to the left to get the girls but I've always had a problem with that. By GH's estimation, BG was 60' away; the railroad tracks are only ~ 8' wide. IMO, if he really was turning to the left, it was not to grab the girls.

In the above video, at the 12:45mm, the fellow depicting BG comes straight down the tracks at them. No turning is necessary.

MOO I don't think killer was within a grabbing distance in the video, I think he was calculating cutting off Abby, by jogging along the right side directly toward Libby. MOO he was counting on fear and fluster at seperation to slow Abby down.
60ft is only 12 paces away, maybe 20 seconds at half regular walking speed.
From the video MOO BG is picking up his feet and placing them, he looks to me like he could make speed on the bridge whenever he wanted to, in which case he is only 8-12 seconds away.

 

[Yemelyan]

There is a new podcast "Scene of the Crime" that will be released started 1/2/20 about the Delphi case. A link to the teaser is below. It sounds like they have compiled some great interviews. Some are people that we are familiar with and have heard from before but some are new.

Megaphone: A Modern Podcasting Platform by Panoply

What prosecutor Robert Ives has to say in just this brief clip is more info that we've heard about the actual crime scene in...I don't know when. He puts one common argument here to rest and maybe more. Are we allowed to discuss this here?

 

[stattlich1]

Indiana did not start collecting DNA from people arrested for felonies until after the Delphi murders. They still would not collect DNA for a misdemeanor arrest.

Right. This killer very well may have no prior felony or misdemeanor arrests, no prior arrests at all, and no DNA on file. He could be a first time criminal. I think he knew the girls, stalked them for quite some time, knew they'd be at the bridge that day, did what he needed to do to save his, and possibly someone else's reputation, all meticulously planned in advance so as to escape being caught....I think it'd be highly unlikely a guy would go straight to murder unless the stakes were high.

Of course, I still could be persuaded he is a serial killer, but the idea that he lives, or did live, in Delphi, along with numerous other things LE has said about him, kind of makes me think otherwise.

Lastly, possibly a drug/alcohol induced frenzied murder, but I think a situation such as this would have been solved by now.

MOO

 

[Spartygirl]

“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here.
Prosecutor says cops likely have met Delphi killer or received crucial tip due to scope of probe

wow.

^^^^^THIS
WOW is right. WTH ??? I get so frustrated with this case.

 

[Seenit]

I took a look at the video of BG that is posted on the sheriff office facebook page. It is the only video they have posted. It seems different to me...particularly the head movement.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=660204581098179

Also a cryptic (or I should say ominous?) note posted by somebody friended there.

Thank you for sharing.

The more I watch this, I am currently convinced that BG is wearing a head lamp or GoPro on his head and has some sort of long object on his back. Maybe a riffle or something.

I so wish I could figure out some sort of detail that would help solve this case.

 

[Boxer]

There is a new podcast "Scene of the Crime" that will be released started 1/2/20 about the Delphi case. A link to the teaser is below. It sounds like they have compiled some great interviews. Some are people that we are familiar with and have heard from before but some are new.

Megaphone: A Modern Podcasting Platform by Panoply

Thank you!
I have heard they have enough evidence to convict if they find the person, never heard Ives's direct statement before.
He says lot of CS evidence, evidence that was somewhat odd, crime scene was physically strange.

MOO possibly posing one and covering up the other with leaves is not really odd or strange.
Maybe it is a confidential CS in order to deny the killer noteriety for tbe strangeness.

 

[Boxer]

Thank you for sharing.

The more I watch this, I am currently convinced that BG is wearing a head lamp or GoPro on his head and has some sort of long object on his back. Maybe a riffle or something.

I so wish I could figure out some sort of detail that would help solve this case.

I see a short black object floating in back of his right shoulder by his ear - I have always thought it possible it was short rifle.

 

[carbuff]

Bridge Guy is better than a Rorschach Blot

 

[Boxer]

Bridge Guy is better than a Rorschach Blot

Well here are my inkblot observations:

Legs too thin for an old 40 ish dude unless leg muscles wasted, in which case he was not chasing girls over a creek and up an enbankment. So MOO he is young or had them in control.
Bur wasted legs like that dont jive with a through the woods crime any.


Face/head just too blurry for ID, or even to know if he is wearing a hat. MOO so no good as a "sketch"

Moves quick, picks up feet. So MOO he is physically capable, even athletic.

Quick head movement in video - looks like a chewer spitting.
Jives with a chewer getting ready to do something, spit and go.
MOO so maybe they got to the spit, and actually do have dna.

Also:
Jacket full of?
Lots of evidence at CS, maybe carrying something or material that he left.

 

[Spartygirl]

I've read a couple references to how "complex" or "complicated" this investigation is.

I wonder what it is that is making it so.

One person of interest, one video, one voice recording, one crime scene, a DA that says what he said, referenced several posts back.

My opinion, and MOO, the "complex" piece revolves around DNA evidence. I speculate there was more than one, possibly numerous, DNA samples at the scene, and LE is having extreme difficulty determining who did what.

Or the DNA they have has been ruled out as to potential suspects.
Or the DNA they have has yet to be matched to the killer.
Or they simply do not have enough measurable DNA to make a definitive determination
Or they lost the DNA

Interesting about DNA as usually when DNA conversations pop up, I bail LOL, However, I watched a show the other day talking about the Y-STR DNA and it fascinated me.
What the Y-STR DNA shows is the Male DNA -BUT- cannot pinpoint WHICH male it belongs to within a family.
Hmmmmm---so if you can pinpoint the family but there are multiple males within the family, you cannot pinpoint specifically which ONE it is. This may be the issue in this case, IMO
Of course, I am sure you all probably have heard this within the 118 Threads for Libby and Abby, but this was new info for me to learn and I found it quite interesting.

 

[Amstorrs]

How about BG is a substitute teacher? Had the day off, familiar with the area and possibly familiar and/or acquainted with both girls and middle school aged kids in general?
Hence the down the hill, guys comment? I teach and frequently use the term guys and also Bud, but mostly when speaking to a single male child. MOO

Not caught up but this coincides with what I’ve been thinking for a while in a sense.

I think they knew him but didn’t KNOW him.

Maybe the creepy gas station attendant that always stares a little too long when you’re in the store.

Or a school janitor that has been known to make comments to the young girls in school.

With this being such a small town I don’t doubt that they knew him or recognized him. But someone they were aware of that made them uncomfortable, but not familiar enough to know his name.

If they had previously gotten a creepy vibe from this guy, it would stand to reason that Libby would have apprehension about being seemingly alone and followed by him on the bridge- thus her taking the video.

It would also explain his almost familiar-sounding “Guys” before saying “down the hill”, if he recognized them too. And why one of the girls family member said they heard a bit more of the audio and the girls talking about that “creepy guy”.

It could ALSO be a reason why they don’t want to release more audio (one of the reasons anyway), especially audio from before anything takes place that would be traumatizing; that audio could display statements that the girls recognize him in some aspect. Which would then explain why LE is so convinced he is from the area or at least visits/works there.

MOO

 

[Moonracer]

I am having difficulty understanding how anyone in the public can make claims about this individual's personality based on such a short clip. The perpetrator is taking 2 steps on a loop. There is no evidence he is drunk or on drugs. No evidence he is handicapped or has a limp. The clip is too short.

This is a video that shows the ground area. I am not making claims that the people in the video are conducting valid experiments. I just personally find videos showing the area interesting until I am able to drive up there and explore it a bit myself.

At WS, one of the best things is throwing out ideas and having others think over them, add to them, throw out a different angle, etc. A sleuther never knows what might lead to a break in a case. For example, the idea he could walk funny because of drinking - who knows? While I might not see it, maybe someone in a nearby city will remember a strange drunk guy at a bar who looked like the perp.

I hope WS stays welcoming to possible ideas, if they are reasonable ideas (I recall a thread shut down because of really loony fantasyland ideas once, rightfully so, because it bordered on victim blaming).

My two cents.

 

[Spartygirl]

RSBM

My opinion is this series of dialogue in particular does sound like two POIs is not out of the realm of possibility.

• "person responsible" is not necessarily saying "killer" its saying without this persons involvement Abby and Libby may not have been murdered (lending itself for this person to be charged as an accomplice if they give up the real murderer)
• "you never thought we would shift gears" meaning you thought because we were pursuing someone else and hadn't found him, we would never get to you, but now we're coming at it from the other side and pursuing you first
• he was comfy because he didn't think LE knew about him or because he thought he was safe because LE was pursuing someone else. or because he had successfully thrown them off his tracks for two years and thought he was home free.

No they didn't really think he was in the room, that was for the benefit of everyone listening, to get them in the mindset of being skeptical of those around them again, to start to look at people they had already cleared in their minds with a fresh set of eyes because they knew they were getting ready to release a sketch that was different than what they had been looking at for two years. It was kind of a subliminal reset for Delphi, like the "sorbet to cleanse their pallet" before they saw the clip, heard the new audio, and saw the new sketch.

Great Post!!! JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I know what im going to say has been discussed at some point, if BG was in the water at all, he would have possibly been exposes to hypothermia. Cold water like that would lower the bodies core temperature very fast and also possibly had feet/ankle cramps. No way he can walk normal after that with wet shoes/boots. Or did he waiters? Sp. or maybe he didnt go in the water.
who can be our “crash test dummy” and simulate this for our WS community?

i cannot as it is well below zero where my frigid cave is.

I've thought since early on he could have had some kind of skin-tight waterproof fabric underneath the jeans. That way there would have been no direct water-to-skin contact on his feet and legs.

Hypothermia would take some time being wet in 42-43F weather, but I agree about limited movement of the lower extremities if there was direct contact of the cold creek and his skin. The muscles contract and stiffen, blood flow slows, and yes movement slows in the legs, until they warm up.

JMO