IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[mickey2942]

I’m predicting a split within 3 years
JMO

If they last that long I will be surprised. The statistics of divorce when a child dies or becomes disabled are astronomical.

I compared this previously to the little boy who died at Disneyworld, by an alligator attack. He was the same age as Chloe.

There was no lawsuit. Disney offered a hefty settlement to not have the words, "Disney Alligator Attack" in the media, constantly associating "Disney" with "alligator attack".

I have no doubt that the goal here was similar. The main difference is that this did not seem to be as egregious as having family outdoor movie time, right next to a pond filled with alligators, at dusk, when they feed...

A guard rail, 18 inches away from the window seems exceptionally secured. Unless someone deliberately bypasses the safety rail...

 

[sl222]

Miscellaneous observations & questions I have... JMOO.

Things I believe would undermine the Wiegand's lawsuit:
1. Had the family been on a cruise before? Promenade decks with working windows have been a staple of cruise lines for years. If its found that the family had been on a similar cruise in the past, I believe it would undermine their case and claim of ignorance.
2. Is there CCTV footage of grandpa on the 11th floor deck BEFORE he started watching Chloe? Perhaps when he first boarded and was exploring the ship? If there's video of him walking around the 11th floor before the incident feeling the breeze and/or looking out a window, their claim of ignorance is undermined.

Why is grandpa lying about things that are easily verifiable as FALSE?
1. Per SA's interview on CBS This Morning: "When I knelt down to be with her at that level, I COULDN'T REACH THE GLASS REALLY with my fingertips, SO I KNEW SHE COULDN'T, so that's when I decided I'd pick her up". This is a blatant falsehood. I have been on this ship. Any adult or child with arms can walk directly up to the lower level glass AND TOUCH it as long as they have fingers. It is impossible for SA (or Chloe) to not have been able to touch the bottom glass with their fingers or whole face if they wanted to.

Why I believe the CCTV video will show SA holding some part of Chloe's body THROUGH/OUTSIDE the window (i.e. going past where the pane of glass would have been) before he lost his grip:
1. Per SA's interview on CBS This Morning: "I had her, and I was trying to knock on the glass, and at that point, I'm like, I'm gonna have to lean further for her to be able to reach it, right, CAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS FURTHER OUT THAN I EXPECTED...". The man says it himself! He's arguing that he thought there was GLASS BEYOND THE GLASS, which is obviously ridiculous but perhaps the only possible defense he could have. I do not believe journalists have seen the entire unedited footage, but I believe SA's own words tell us what is on it.
2. The railing is ~18inches from the window ledge. If she had only been held 1-10 inches BEYOND railing when she slipped, she would more likely have banged her head and/or upper body on the window ledge but fallen on the floor INSIDE the ship. She would have to have been held ~10-18 inches (estimate) BEYOND the railing for the laws of physics to allow her to topple to her death OUTSIDE the window.


JMOO.

Your post makes me realize that the actual time when Chloe couldn't "reach the glass" was when she was being held *at* the railing.

One thing the conference didn't mention (plus I guess the lawsuit) is that he first stood her on the railing (big no-no). Then he sat her on the railing (supposedly, according to CBS) (also not allowed).

I believe that if his wife or Chloe's mother had seen him doing any of that, they would have rushed immediately to him and told him to stop, and would have taken Chloe in their own arms, even before she was in the precarious, about-to-fall-out, position.

 

[fabvab]

Gee, health insurance that police and lawyers get would usually take care of most of the bills. It seems like they don’t want to pay for anything at all.

Is it normal for regular citizens in their town to get free police escorts? If not, was it
ethical for tax dollars to be used to pay for the escort from the airport to their home? I’m sure some of his fellow officers would have donated their time to do the escort instead of using tax money. I have no link saying tax dollars paid for the escort as I read that in an earlier post.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Say Chloe did want to look out the window and bang on the glass.

Grandpa should have checked to see if it is viable and safe, or, if he was in full of control of his faculties, say something like: "No no Chloe let's get some ice cream" or something like that.

That way Chloe would be safe and happy at the same time.

"So she's down at the — looking at the — out the window, and the glass. I bent down by her, and then we always, like, when you're — whenever we were at hockey games, we would bang on the glass, and it was fun, you know? So when I knelt down to be with her at that level, I couldn't reach the glass, really, with my fingertips, so I knew she couldn't. "
Grandfather charged in girl's cruise ship death says colorblindness may have been a factor
Apparently SA (and I am loathe to call him "Grandpa") wanted to tap or bang or in some way interact with the glass. Why? I have no clue at all. The whole story is so fishy Red Lobster could have a month long special on it.

 

[al66pine]

Complaint, Series of Events. Why Did Chloe's Mother Leave Her? Help w Issue re Cruise?

A few differences from MSM? From the Complaint, w my bbm:
"10. On or about July 7, 2019, Mr. Wiegand, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand, Chloe, Chloe’s brother, and Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand’s mother and stepfather, Salvatore Anello (“Mr. Anello”) (at times collectively referred to as “the family”),were fare-paying passengers....
"11. On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship."
Q^11. IIRC, per MSM G'pa & Chloe were by themselves, for whatever reason, while the others ate lunch. Per ^ "the family" had lunch together. Did Chloe also eat w them, or was she w Dad's parents? Where were Dad's parents? May not matter.
{{{ETA: Were they playing in actual pool or in water sprinkler/gizmo/gadgets in H20 Zone?}}}

"12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs. Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below..."
Q^12. What did Chloe's Mom need to do? Why leave? Was the cruise related issue a ruse?
Something that precluded Chloe from going w her? Alone time? Decompress from travel? Adult time w Dad? Spend time w Chloe's brother, or her own Mom? Phone calls/email relating to work in IND? May not matter. But what could an issue w the cruise be?

"13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’… water park[.]”
"14. At all times material, Mr. Anello was closely supervising Chloe as she played in the kids’ water park. Shortly after 4 p.m., Chloe walked over to a nearby wall of glass on the same deck (Deck 11), and she was followed closely by Mr. Anello."
Q^14. In Winkleman interview (w ABC reporter watching vid? or?), he said G'pa was w Chloe then went to shower area. Was that in H20 Zone? Then went to glass wall.
<modsnip>

 

[justice4allnow]

The Daily Mail's article today is once again being moderated. Only 109 comments published. I wonder who would be interested in ensuring that there were not an enormous number of comments published that are unfavorable to the lawsuit.... earlier unmoderated articles clearly show most of the public supporting the cruise line.

 

[sl222]

"I had her, and I was trying to knock on the glass, and at that point, I'm like, I'm gonna have to lean further for her to be able to reach it, right, CAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS FURTHER OUT THAN I EXPECTED..."

Is the defense also going to say he had depth perception issues?

If he had issues seeing (colorblind and anything else), that's common sense reason to be extra cautious in the first place. You can't hold on to a child like she's a bag of groceries. Not trying to be mean in that analogy, but the way he describes his grip on her is tough to see. I'm sure it was hard on the parents, if they watched that interview.

Any time they raise problems about his abilities then that raises the point that extra caution was needed. Thinking about it, he wasn't really able to keep up with Chloe, who was running, at his size and state of health.

For the lawsuit he will be deposed and will have to answer questions about how often he drinks (if he does) and whether he smokes pot, what medications he's on, when was his last eye exam, etc., so will the parents and his wife, etc.

 

[oviedo]

Your post makes me realize that the actual time when Chloe couldn't "reach the glass" was when she was being held *at* the railing.

One thing the conference didn't mention (plus I guess the lawsuit) is that he first stood her on the railing (big no-no). Then he sat her on the railing (supposedly, according to CBS) (also not allowed).

I believe that if his wife or Chloe's mother had seen him doing any of that, they would have rushed immediately to him and told him to stop, and would have taken Chloe in their own arms, even before she was in the precarious, about-to-fall-out, position.

My guess from being on many RCCL cruises is that the prosecution may have witnesses who saw this egregious behavior and attempted to stop him by bringing the crew that were in the area - there’s a reason RCCL has refused comment except for their standard comment IMO (besides it’s standard to not comment when litigation could be pending) - this will all come out - I believe there is more to the story but we wait and see
JMO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

"I had her, and I was trying to knock on the glass, and at that point, I'm like, I'm gonna have to lean further for her to be able to reach it, right, CAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS FURTHER OUT THAN I EXPECTED..."

Is the defense also going to say he had depth perception issues?

If he had issues seeing (colorblind and anything else), that's common sense reason to be extra cautious in the first place. You can't hold on to a child like she's a bag of groceries. Not trying to be mean in that analogy, but the way he describes his grip on her is tough to see. I'm sure it was hard on the parents, if they watched that interview.

Any time they raise problems about his abilities then that raises the point that extra caution was needed. Thinking about it, he wasn't really able to keep up with Chloe, who was running, at his size and state of health.

For the lawsuit he will be deposed and will have to answer questions about how often he drinks (if he does) and whether he smokes pot, what medications he's on, when was his last eye exam, etc., so will the parents and his wife, etc.

BBM
Yeah, but I actually don't believe a word he says as his stories have changed since this first happened.

 

[al66pine]

Window size?
Someone at presser this a.m. asked Winkleman (sorry I did not note a timestamp from vid) about size of window in the wall. W said he did not have an actual measurement but he thought ~ 4 ft x 4 ft.

Anyone have an idea on whether W is in the ballpark on this figure.
Seems the bigger the better, the easier for little Chloe to slip thru, the more dangerous it is, from W's/plaintiff's viewpoint. jmo

 

[fabvab]

Complaint, Series of Events. Why Did Chloe's Mother Leave Her? Help w Issue re Cruise?

A few differences from MSM? From the Complaint, w my bbm:
"10. On or about July 7, 2019, Mr. Wiegand, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand, Chloe, Chloe’s brother, and Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand’s mother and stepfather, Salvatore Anello (“Mr. Anello”) (at times collectively referred to as “the family”),were fare-paying passengers....
"11. On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship."
Q^11. IIRC, per MSM G'pa & Chloe were by themselves, for whatever reason, while the others ate lunch. Per ^ "the family" had lunch together. Did Chloe also eat w them, or was she w Dad's parents? Where were Dad's parents? May not matter.
{{{ETA: Were they playing in actual pool or in water sprinkler/gizmo/gadgets in H20 Zone?}}}

"12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs. Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below..."
Q^12. What did Chloe's Mom need to do? Why leave? Was the cruise related issue a ruse?
Something that precluded Chloe from going w her? Alone time? Decompress from travel? Adult time w Dad? Spend time w Chloe's brother, or her own Mom? Phone calls/email relating to work in IND? May not matter. But what could an issue w the cruise be?

"13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’… water park[.]”
"14. At all times material, Mr. Anello was closely supervising Chloe as she played in the kids’ water park. Shortly after 4 p.m., Chloe walked over to a nearby wall of glass on the same deck (Deck 11), and she was followed closely by Mr. Anello."
Q^14. In Winkleman interview (w ABC reporter watching vid? or?), he said G'pa was w Chloe then went to shower area. Was that in H20 Zone? Then went to glass wall.
Some would say - add that Chloe left H20 Zone.
^ Between 3:50 and just after 4:00, so ~ 10 minutes. Then tragedy.

Did grandpa have on his swimsuit? It says he took mom’s place closely supervising Chloe in the water area. Mom had her swimsuit on. Did he?

 

[IceIce9]

"Chloe, who loved to go to her brother's hockey games and bang on the glass, as you Indiana folks would know better than I would, thinking that there's glass there. There's no glass there and she's gone," said the family's attorney Michael Winkleman

BBM. What does he mean “you Indiana folk” because I am Indiana “folk” and I don’t know, lol.

 

[fabvab]

Double post. Deleted by me.

 

[neesaki]

The mom is actually a prosecutor, which has caused me to look curiously on some of their actions. She of all people would know it's up to the DA whether or not to seek criminal prosecution.

Which makes me wonder how long she actually worked in that office. Is there any info. on that? Otherwise, I tend to believe she seems quite naive for an attorney, especially one who’s worked on the prosecution side of things. Idk, except this is one dog and pony show.

Poor baby Chloe, if her parents would stand up for her, and face and acknowledge the real cause of her death, they would have the world rallying around them.

 

[sl222]

Complaint, Series of Events. Why Did Chloe's Mother Leave Her? Help w Issue re Cruise?

A few differences from MSM? From the Complaint, w my bbm:
"10. On or about July 7, 2019, Mr. Wiegand, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand, Chloe, Chloe’s brother, and Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand’s mother and stepfather, Salvatore Anello (“Mr. Anello”) (at times collectively referred to as “the family”),were fare-paying passengers....
"11. On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship."
Q^11. IIRC, per MSM G'pa & Chloe were by themselves, for whatever reason, while the others ate lunch. Per ^ "the family" had lunch together. Did Chloe also eat w them, or was she w Dad's parents? Where were Dad's parents? May not matter.
{{{ETA: Were they playing in actual pool or in water sprinkler/gizmo/gadgets in H20 Zone?}}}

"12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs. Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below..."
Q^12. What did Chloe's Mom need to do? Why leave? Was the cruise related issue a ruse?
Something that precluded Chloe from going w her? Alone time? Decompress from travel? Adult time w Dad? Spend time w Chloe's brother, or her own Mom? Phone calls/email relating to work in IND? May not matter. But what could an issue w the cruise be?

"13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’… water park[.]”
"14. At all times material, Mr. Anello was closely supervising Chloe as she played in the kids’ water park. Shortly after 4 p.m., Chloe walked over to a nearby wall of glass on the same deck (Deck 11), and she was followed closely by Mr. Anello."
Q^14. In Winkleman interview (w ABC reporter watching vid? or?), he said G'pa was w Chloe then went to shower area. Was that in H20 Zone? Then went to glass wall.
Some would say - add that Chloe left H20 Zone.
^ Between 3:50 and just after 4:00, so ~ 10 minutes. Then tragedy.

IIRC the fall took place close to 4:30pm.
PICTURED: Indiana toddler who fell 150ft to her death from cruise ship | Daily Mail Online

 

[neesaki]

And that’s another thing. The plexiglass at hockey rinks is meant to be banged on. Players crash into it, and fans show their support by banging on it.

“Glass,” in any other context, is not meant to be banged on, whether a child wants to or not.

“I’ll just pick my granddaughter up and prop her near a window so she can bang on it, annoying other passengers and smearing the glass with fingerprints,” just doesn’t hold water.

This is a cruise ship, not a hockey rink. These must be the same type of people who trash hotel rooms, and say “the maid will take care of it.”

It’s a transparent attempt to explain away the inexplicable.

And that’s another point, Chloe’s parents are not uneducated people.
Her mother’s an attorney, for gods sake. So, there’s absolutely no excuse for this blatant denial and obvious displacement of blame.
Which just makes this all the more disturbing.

 

[lonetraveler]

RSBM

I think that the fact that the windows are all tinted, and open window areas are not tinted, is enough for them to be distinguishable from each other.

Coupled with the fact that a safety rail has been installed there - across the windows - to give the passengers something to hold onto, instead of falling out through an open window if the ship is rocking.

View attachment 219583 View attachment 219584

Royal Caribbean cruise family admit grandad left toddler to fall to her death from this window rail

The open windows are very high, about four feet from the flooring. Totally impossible to "fall" out of them. You would have to be climbing onto the railing or sitting in the window frame itself to fall out of the window. I'm 5'3" and the railing is chest high to me.

 

[MassGuy]

And that’s another point, Chloe’s parents are not uneducated people.
Her mother’s an attorney, for gods sake. So, there’s absolutely no excuse for this blatant denial and obvious displacement of blame.
Which just makes this all the more disturbing.

I think emotion is superseding logic and common sense.

 

[MassGuy]

Window size?
Someone at presser this a.m. asked Winkleman (sorry I did not note a timestamp from vid) about size of window in the wall. W said he did not have an actual measurement but he thought ~ 4 ft x 4 ft.

Anyone have an idea on whether W is in the ballpark on this figure.
Seems the bigger the better, the easier for little Chloe to slip thru, the more dangerous it is, from W's/plaintiff's viewpoint. jmo

Here’s a photo from the Daily Mail article. Using the chairs for scale, it definitely looks about 4 feet wide, and is probably 2-3 feet top to bottom.

 

[lonetraveler]

I'm just curious but I would like to know if any of the family, especially Chloe's parents had balcony rooms.