IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[BetteDavisEyes]

I am personally not a fan of cruises (apologies to all of you who are, but I need “alone time” on my vacations, not time on a ship with thousands of other people)

But if I did like cruises I would immediately book several trips on Royal Caribbean to show my support.

DH and I have sailed mostly on Princess since 2002 and are "Elite" with 20 cruises to date - #21 coming up next month. IIRC, we sailed on RCCL three times, so we probably still have "Crown & Anchor" status even though we haven't cruised with RC for many years. With multiple Princess cruises under our belts, there are some perks that would be difficult to ignore, but I would consider a Royal Caribbean cruise, as well, to show my support.

 

[MsMarple]

Here,
Let us all walk through FOTS deck 11.
Please take note as the guy filming walks right up to, and looks out of, one the windows!

And take a look at the windows that are open. Most of them that I saw weren't 100% open as the handle would stop at a couple inches at the least. IOW, it's not the same as just a big hole, there would be a small portion of glass showing. And if the glass is tinted then it should be pretty obvious, color blindness or not.

I wonder, if the family *had* to choose one to cut loose - SA or the civil suit - which would it be?

 

[jeena]

A $5000,000 Goodwill Gesture "if MW Loses the Case?"

@jeena A half-million dollar settlement? As a goodwill gesture?
If MW (Winkleman) loses the case? His law firm's arrangements (documented by a letter of engagement, signed by MW and by Mom & Dad), set forth the terms of the law firm's compensation. Typically personal injury work is done on a contingency basis.
1) If there is a pre-trial settlement, law firm receives X% (often 30% - 40%) of settlement amt, and clients Mom & Dad receive the settlement amt, less the <-- law firm % and less expenses incurred for expert witness reports, and many other expenses.
2) If matter goes to trial, basically same as above, but law firm receives a larger %, often 40 to 50%.

What amt would Mom & Dad receive if pre-trial settlement was $1,000,000? Or trial verdict of $1,000,000? And how much would law firm receive in each of ^ outcomes?

Now let's flip the coin, to see about effects on cruiseline.
Before any threat of litigation, no questions asked, IIUC, cruiseline paid some travel expenses etc. for Mom & Dad. In grand scheme of things, a relatively paltry amount - $10,000.or 25,000. I do not recall a $ figure, but. imo, that seems like a "goodwill gesture."
And regardless of eventual outcome, cruiseline pays defense counsel to represent co. Typically defense counsel/law firm is paid per hour. Easily can tally up to $ *advertiser censored*,000, win, lose, or draw.

Is it possible for either 'side' to know without a doubt, what the final outcome will be? IDTS, not in this case.

Now let's put you in shoes of the cruiseline.
Let's say, you own a house on two acres or a hundred acres of land ('free and clear' all paid for). Driving along one day, G'pa pulls off the road there, walks on your property, and w Chloe, he plays 'scare the child game' and she falls and dies.
Are you saying you think it would be appropriate for a court to order you to pay Chloe's Mom & Dad half a million $, because "the tragedy happened" on your land? And to force you to sell your house & land to pay the civil judgment? That is, even if G'pa caused the death? Not a perfect analogy to this case.

Would you think to yourself, I'll offer a $ 500,000 payment to Chloe's parents , as a goodwill gesture, because ---
1) it's the "right thing to do" because Chloe's death happened on my land, even tho G'pa is really at fault? From your post, it seems as if you would.
I hope G'pa will play the 'scare the child' game on your property, not mine. jmo. Personally, I'm gonna try to keep G'pa (and Chloe) off my land. jmo.

You convinced me what a not thought out, bad idea a $500,000 pre-trial settlement is and what the negative ramifications to both sides would be. The other posters who agreed with you convinced me also.
I was hurt at a well known theme park, I felt the park was at fault and I tried to get a few attorneys to take the case, but since I had a pre-existing injury to my knee, they weren't interested. The theme park sent me money (a pittance) for my inconvenience and I accepted, I had no recourse anyway.

 

[MsMarple]

i don't for one minute believe this horrible act was
intentional. However the greed exhibited by this family has opened them up to lots of theories and accusations. They are the least sympathetic family that has lost a child to death, that I have ever seen. It will be obscene if they get one cent of blood money from the cruise ship.

ITA! I mean, two professionals and yet there are fundraisers up the wazoo. "Our kid wants to go to Europe to play hockey, give us some $$," "A grandfather dropped his granddaughter out of an open window to her death, give them some $$," "Our friend is charged with negligent homicide for dropping his granddaughter out an open window, give him some defense $$." Good grief! How did they ever afford the cruise? Did we miss yet another fundraiser? (sarcasm)

And hours after Chloe's death the personal injury lawyer is on the news trying to spin it like SA had nothing to do with it, it's all mean old RCCL's fault for not anticipating some dolt might ignore policy and perch a child on the safety rail in front of an open window.

Multiple interviews by all, trying to garner public sympathy. IMO it's backfiring and these people can't see it. MOO.

 

[LietKynes]

And take a look at the windows that are open. Most of them that I saw weren't 100% open as the handle would stop at a couple inches at the least. IOW, it's not the same as just a big hole, there would be a small portion of glass showing. And if the glass is tinted then it should be pretty obvious, color blindness or not.

I wonder, if the family *had* to choose one to cut loose - SA or the civil suit - which would it be?

bbm

Excellent point.
That would be telling.
Do we want to know ?

 

[Safeguard]

I think they are an aggressive lawyer and cop couple who are used to throwing their weight around and bullying people via their professions to get their own way. I can imagine KW threatening a neighbor “I’m a lawyer and my husband is a cop. You don’t know who you’re messing with.”

And I think their attitude emboldened SA’s attitude of “I do what I want. No one tells me what to do. Or I’ll sic my daughter on ‘em.”

Its possible. The way mom says, "I visit my daughter's urn when I should be rocking her to sleep" (paraphrasing).

Seriously, I doubt I could get a sentence like that out without breaking down. But I'm not sure I would even use my baby's creamains to illicit public sympathy.

I usually don't comment on how people grieve, such an individual process, people tend to get crazy on here about every little eye twitch. But this mother is one cool character. I find her chilling. Maybe it's just her profession that affords her nerves of steel, but she's not helping their case from where I'm sitting.

 

[justbreathe]

Maybe the Wiegands should get a small settlement (half-million or so) as a good will gesture from RCCL since the tragedy happened on their ship, even if MW loses the case. Seems like the right thing to do for all their suffering that will never end, even though SA is really to blame.

Maybe before they dragged the cruise line through the mud. Not now. They should get nothing. And I thought they just wanted change. So if RC just made all the windows so they only open 4 inches, would it all be good? No. They want them to admit they were “wrong.” Oh, so they make a statement, then we good? No. They weren’t out at sea so they get all the golds! It makes me sick.

 

[justbreathe]

I hope for the opposite, and don’t want them to see a penny.

This family was partaking in a safe activity, and doing so on a ship that was keeping up its end of the deal (keeping passengers safe).

Due to no fault of Royal Caribbean, a child died. If the parents sue anyone, it should be the man who negligently killed their daughter.

He is solely to blame for this.

Royal Caribbean is a business, not a charity. And paying off people who have filed a frivolous and misguided lawsuit, may not be a sound business decision.

I think this proceeds forward, and will ultimately be dismissed. As it should be.

ETA: This quote really grinds my gears.

Anello told CBS News he initially blamed himself for Chloe's death. Now, he blames the cruise line.

"I just want them to fix the boat. Just fix it. Just fix the boat."

The family whose toddler fell to her death from a Royal Caribbean cruise ship sues the company - CNN

Just fix the boat AND give me all the golds!

 

[justbreathe]

Normally, my feeling in a case like this would be that this guy has already paid enough, and there’s no reason to pursue legal action.

The fact that he has publicly said that he no longer blames himself, and instead, blames the cruise line, changes things for me.

He doesn’t think he did anything wrong, just like he didn’t think he did anything wrong with a ridiculous amount of traffic infractions.

It’s a pattern, and he needs to get the message.

Yes! It’s like dude, you had it right the first time. This is all your fault, SA.

 

[al66pine]

Shower Area? Any Significance? Shoes?

.
At :55 sec, we see big, red (ice cream?) kiosk.
1:00 mark, in middle of frame, out in the open close to or in kiddy zone, we see 2 tall, round-ish semi-enclosed glass structures. Is that the 'showers' area that Winkleman mentioned in interview a few days ago? Is there any significance to G'pa & Chloe going there, if, in fact, they did? Oh, wait a minute, did Chloe (want to) bang on that glass too?

Someone asked earlier if G'pa had changed into swim wear.
If staying close to Chloe in H20 Zone, what did G'pa have on his feet? Top-siders, flip-flops, water-shoes? Or street shoes not suitable for walking thru ankle deep water? Or did he just remove shoes? Carry them? Leave beside a chair along outer wall, the 'glass wall'?

Cruisers-- If ppl are wearing 'street shoes' and they need to go into ankle-deep water in kiddy zone to supervise their chid, what do they do w their shoes? Maybe not that much water? Thx in adv.

 

[IceIce9]

I feel the same way about hot car deaths. Parents who forget their kids in cars and they die, often everyone feels the parents have suffered enough. But how can 99.9% of parents remember to remove their kids from the car?

Parents will say they are distracted, but we are all distracted.

These parents who forget their kids in the car wouldn’t forget their cell phones.

Would SA have dangled his cell phone out the window? Or held on to his cell phone carelessly with one hand?

 

[Safeguard]

I feel the same way about hot car deaths. Parents who forget their kids in cars and they die, often everyone feels the parents have suffered enough. But how can 99.9% of parents remember to remove their kids from the car?

Parents will say they are distracted, but we are all distracted.

These parents who forget their kids in the car wouldn’t forget their cell phones.

Would SA have dangled his cell phone out the window? Or held on to his cell phone carelessly with one hand?

This is not even remotely the same imo.
The "Hot Car" equivalent of this death would be like a caregiver seeing a car on fire and deciding to give the kid a peek inside anyway.

 

[LietKynes]

As far as fixing the ship... If I were RCCL I'd tell this family to go away.
There is nothing they need to 'fix'.
You can't fix stupid.

Making sure every deck and window is bolted with plexiglass or bars is not going to make people want to sail with them.
The ads generally depict a person enjoying the view of the sea from their balcony and the wind blowing their hair.
What would an ad look like if everything was nailed shut or screened over ?

What about the lady whom -- afaik --M. Winkleman is representing, who is suing for the ship allowing her to have too many drinks-- causing her to climb over a railing and land in the ocean.
A fishing boat picked her up.
There's no fixing of the ship to prevent her from climbing over a railing meant to keep the passengers from falling over.
The railing on the outer private balconies looked around 4 feet in height.
One would have to climb up and over, or straddle them -- to fall over.

 

[al66pine]

$500,000 "Goodwill Gesture" Revisited

You convinced me what a not thought out, bad idea a $500,000 pre-trial settlement is and what the negative ramifications to both sides would be. The other posters who agreed with you convinced me also.
I was hurt at a well known theme park, I felt the park was at fault and I tried to get a few attorneys to take the case, but since I had a pre-existing injury to my knee, they weren't interested. The theme park sent me money (a pittance) for my inconvenience and I accepted, I had no recourse anyway.

@jeena Sorry that you were injured at an amusement park, of all places. Seems bad things should not happen there. Also disappointing that attys did not accept your case, because of pre-existing injury.

Sometimes ideas that sound good when first conceived look different in the harsh cold light of day, or not good at all when viewed from different angles or multiple viewpoints.
Usually I don't post trying 'to convince' anyone to change their mind or to agree w me. Often I'm exploring possibilities, seeking info/knowledge from others w (more) experience in a matter. Sometimes to ask poster(s) -- have you considered this (X) factor as relevant?
As someone told years ago - We are all ignorant, but not about the same things. And I've heard a more positive version of this concept - Each and every person out there knows about something you do not, and often you can learn something from them.
Every day I learn something new on Websleuths. It's a great place.

 

[Seattle1]

Screens? Oh come on.

I don't have any cruise experience but I'm wondering about a couple of things specific to the Freedom of the Seas ship.

Watching the 11th-floor video tour recently posted-- it appears that there are screens on some of the lower windows (located beneath the operable windows). Also, I just noticed the same in a photo from the lawsuit (see link below).

Wondering if these really are screens and if it's true that RCCL's newer ships were designed without operable windows. (Freedom of the Seas was built 2006).

ETA: add link

IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

 

[lonetraveler]

At the very start of this , when I first read the story, I felt awful about Grandpa being charged. I felt so sorry for him, and for the family. I knew they were devastated and why pile on.

But then I began looking more closely at his ridiculous actions---so irresponsible and negligent.

Then when the lawyer began changing stories, trying various excuses and explanations, and rudely
blaming the Cruise Line, calling them killers essentially---I changed my attitude.

I hope the lawsuit brings them NOTHING in return.

I totally agree, I'm a big believer in not rewarding bad behavior.

 

[oviedo]

I don't have any cruise experience but I'm wondering about a couple of things specific to the Freedom of the Seas ship.

Watching the 11th-floor video tour recently posted-- it appears that there are screens on some of the lower windows (located beneath the operable windows). Also, I just noticed the same in a photo from the lawsuit (see link below).

Wondering if these really are screens and if it's true that RCCL's newer ships were designed without operable windows. (Freedom of the Seas was built 2006).

ETA: add link

IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

Those are designed to sweep water out of - there are several scattered about deck 11 on all the RCCL ships I’ve been on - in very choppy seas the pool water sloshes out and the water needs to be swept out from what I’ve seen - same with storms - it’s happened to me only a couple of times but that’s how I’ve seen them used - I will check it out next week on the ship I’m on (not FOTS)
JMO

 

[lonetraveler]

@oviedo So glad you will be able to provide some unbiased observations & info.
18 inches? So says the Complaint.
Pls, pls pls double check w your tape measure and/or phone ruler/scale app. And take pic.

A wish list for you, Detective Oviedo and any other cruisers:
When on board, w Complaint on screen, take pic - same thing/same angle/same distance.
Put your phone/camera down, look again, to see what is NOT shown in Complaint pix.

The rail height is bugging me. In some MSM pix, rail is same height as frames dividing bottom row of windows from middle row of windows. In some pix, looks several inches higher; in other pix, looks lower. Seems it's a matter of camera angle. A pic taken 'straight on' w camera at same height as rail should help.
In interview a couple(?) days ago (w ABC reporter, watching vid?) Winkleman said G'pa was w Chloe in H20 Zone, then went to shower area. In H20 Zone? I'm imagining 'showers' in open area, spigots at head height placed on those bright-colored figures. IOW, showers for kiddy water play? Pic pls?

While investigating & taking photos, wearing a Sherlock Holmes deerstalker cap and smoking a briar pipe is optional. After all, this is an undercover operation. . Be safe and have a great time.

pic from amazon.

Grandfather's story is bothering me. Chloe was supposedly sitting on the railing. A railing located 18" from the window opening. If she is of average height of 31.8 inches for an 18 month old female toddler then how could she go out of the window. Just say that her legs are around 10" long, that leaves 21.8 " of her body, from her butt to the top of her head leaning forward from the sitting position toward the window opening 18" away. That would have put only 3.8 inches of her head out of the window, ie., not enough to make her fall out of the window. This just proves to me that the original story that came out of him holding her outside of the window is most likely the correct story. IMO
18-Month-Old Development Milestones: Toddler Month by Month

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Grandfather's story is bothering me. Chloe was supposedly sitting on the railing. A railing located 18" from the window opening. If she is of average height of 31.8 inches for an 18 month old female toddler then how could she go out of the window. Just say that her legs are around 10" long, that leaves 21.8 " of her body, from her butt to the top of her head leaning forward from the sitting position toward the window opening 18" away. That would have put only 3.8 inches of her head out of the window, ie., not enough to make her fall out of the window. This just proves to me that the original story that came out of him holding her outside of the window is most likely the correct story. IMO
18-Month-Old Development Milestones: Toddler Month by Month

BBM Most of her body would have had to be outside the window, it's a matter of plain physics. Just over half, probably. WHY was she so far out that window if it was an accident? I just can't see it. MOO

 

[lonetraveler]

DH and I have sailed mostly on Princess since 2002 and are "Elite" with 20 cruises to date - #21 coming up next month. IIRC, we sailed on RCCL three times, so we probably still have "Crown & Anchor" status even though we haven't cruised with RC for many years. With multiple Princess cruises under our belts, there are some perks that would be difficult to ignore, but I would consider a Royal Caribbean cruise, as well, to show my support.

I know what you mean, I've only cruised Norwegian cruises and enjoy the perks, a lot but I would consider RCCL to show my support as well.