Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[ldlager]

Yes full credit to dotr.

The side door offering potential access has been discussed here before, it seems like an obvious potential point of entry and exit. This board has discussed at length the theory that bs was attacked coming in from the garage, and honey coming in the side door near the front of the house.

The article intimates that police were called almost immediately after the bodies were found and ms was called. This is not consistent with ALL previous reports or accounts, and in fact contradicts the TPS own website, which indicates that police weren’t called until 12.46. I doubt the accuracy of the article on this point.

What I can’t believe is that police evidently kept the potential witnesses in rooms AT THE CRIME SCENE. If this is true, it is completely idiotic and shows gross incompetence by police, opening the door for contamination of the crime scene and tainting potential evidence. Surely there were enough police cars to have the witnesses sit and wait in them!!! Why haven’t we heard about discipline against the officers that allowed this?

In view of this, anD other seeming police screwups in this case, I fear that any attempted prosecution may eventually fail due to potential issues with the evidence.

 

[Satchie]

the other weird sculpture in the same area, which she described as "the sheep being led to slaughter".

I feel I have to stand up here on behalf of modern art (and the Sherman's good taste). I don't know exactly what that sculpture means, but I'm pretty sure it reflects a Jewish theme or story, the Jews in the Bible were usually shepherds, sheep are highly symbolic of the relation between people and God. If it wasn't a Jewish home, I would take it to reflect Christ leading the lost sheep back to God. I think the leading figure is meant to appear more andogynous, or angelic, than female. Women in the Bible and ancient times were never allowed near the herd animals.

 

[casesensitive]

I feel I have to stand up here on behalf of modern art (and the Sherman's good taste). I don't know exactly what that sculpture means, but I'm pretty sure it reflects a Jewish theme or story, the Jews in the Bible were usually shepherds, sheep are highly symbolic of the relation between people and God. If it wasn't a Jewish home, I would take it to reflect Christ leading the lost sheep back to God. I think the leading figure is meant to appear more andogynous, or angelic, than female. Women in the Bible and ancient times were never allowed near the herd animals.

Thank you for your history research and interpretation of the possible meaning of the sheep sculpture. I hope my personal comment relating about a sheep post, which has nothing do with the investigation or current media attention has upset you.

KD's article zeros in on the couple sculptures and the comparison to the crime scene. What are your feelings on that? I would like to know how members feel about KD's latest article.

 

[Satchie]

Thank you for your history research and interpretation of the possible meaning of the sheep sculpture. I hope my personal comment relating about a sheep post, which has nothing do with the investigation or current media attention has upset you.

KD's article zeros in on the couple sculptures and the comparison to the crime scene. What are your feelings on that? I would like to know how members feel about KD's latest article.

I think it's a lack of understanding of art, to suggest an artist would create an offensive artwork to put in someone's beautiful and beloved home. Would Honey have accepted the advice of a decorator, that she mount sheep heads and bloody axes on her walls?

I think this is definitely a case of people not understanding the artworks and therefore reading into them some kind of foreshadowing of the terrible thing that happened to the owners.

I think there aren't very many things that can be done with legs when people are in a seated position. Basically they have to be in front, and can be crossed (depending on the person's flexibility) or not crossed. So to me, it's pure coincidence that Barry and Honey, found seated side by side, would seem to resemble the artwork. Basically, every time throughout their lives that they were seated side by side on a bench, without a table, they would have resembled the sculpture. Perhaps that's what they appreciated about it.

 

[deugirtni]

Well, after all the discussion (ages ago) about which type of coats the couple were wearing, we have now been told that B was wearing a 'bomber jacket'. Definitely outside winter wear. FWIW.

"Barry’s arms were by his side, pulled back slightly by the sleeves of his bomber jacket..."

Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement | The Star

 

[nuff]

I think this is definitely a case of people not understanding the artworks and therefore reading into them some kind of foreshadowing of the terrible thing that happened to the owners.

.

I don't think we've seen any evidence that either BS or HS knew much about modern art, except as investments, which most rich people seem to get into. The article says the two-humans sculpture was actually given to them by a friend who moved away, so not their choice. And they were in what looked like a private family room in the basement, so I wonder if they even liked them themselves. IMHO, positioning the bodies to resemble that sculpture may have been a whim on the part of the killers, not a premeditated plan. (They clearly had lots of time.) But the killers - or whoever hired them - were definitely very familiar with the display.

As for the sheep - which I kind of like - my first thought was Mary had a little lamb, not some deep religious meaning from any faith. We'd need to know more about its provenance to know whether it has any significance at all but my guess is no.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't think we've seen any evidence that either BS or HS knew much about modern art, except as investments, which most rich people seem to get into. The article says the two-humans sculpture was actually given to them by a friend who moved away, so not their choice. And they were in what looked like a private family room in the basement, so I wonder if they even liked them themselves. IMHO, positioning the bodies to resemble that sculpture may have been a whim on the part of the killers, not a premeditated plan. (They clearly had lots of time.) But the killers - or whoever hired them - were definitely very familiar with the display.

As for the sheep - which I kind of like - my first thought was Mary had a little lamb, not some deep religious meaning from any faith. We'd need to know more about its provenance to know whether it has any significance at all but my guess is no.

Although the two-humans sculpture was obtained from a friend, apparently HS did *ask* if she could have them, so seems like it was her choice. They are a great conversation piece and perhaps also somewhat of a great 'find', considering where they came from. I wonder if they were demolished along with the house and the Subzero fridge and other furniture?

 

[dotr]

I think it's a lack of understanding of art, to suggest an artist would create an offensive artwork to put in someone's beautiful and beloved home. Would Honey have accepted the advice of a decorator, that she mount sheep heads and bloody axes on her walls?

I think this is definitely a case of people not understanding the artworks and therefore reading into them some kind of foreshadowing of the terrible thing that happened to the owners.

I think there aren't very many things that can be done with legs when people are in a seated position. Basically they have to be in front, and can be crossed (depending on the person's flexibility) or not crossed. So to me, it's pure coincidence that Barry and Honey, found seated side by side, would seem to resemble the artwork. Basically, every time throughout their lives that they were seated side by side on a bench, without a table, they would have resembled the sculpture. Perhaps that's what they appreciated about it.

To clarify, the art piece depicting a woman leading the lamb could mean, or not mean anything at all beyond what it appears to be, simply a woman leading a lamb by a rope around its' neck.
My earlier observation and clearly stated speculation, imo. was that the piece reminded me of a lamb being led to slaughter, not unlike HS.

My understanding of modern art is not limitless, but it is not limited.

 

[Number8]

Some thoughts, after reading the new Star article:

The resemblance to the sculptures could definitely be coincidental. However, the fact that it specifically mentions that Barry's leg was folded over his other leg seems too specific/awkward of a pose for it not to be intentionally placed in that position. It seems very hard to believe that his legs would end up that way in any other circumstance. So very odd.

I find Kevin Donovan's theory interesting. He believes the murderer wasn't a hit, but rather someone they knew and trusted, and that it started from an argument in the house about money. There's a few things I think support this:

• B & H's estate has been locked down and that the police have hinted that their theory also revolves around the estate/money, and it was known that there were internal family conflicts about this. This theory fits with occam's razor (that the simplest explanation is usually the right one) rather than some complex plot about a hitman or business conspiracy.
• The article also implied that normally B & H aren't home at that time, so it was someone who knew they would be there/who had pre-arranged meeting
• The fact that H's phone was left in a powder room she normally never uses is very odd, and makes me think she may have ran there to escape and was dragged away. But if it was a professional hit, wouldn't they have gone back for her phone or at least done a walk-through of the house to make sure they left no traces behind? This makes me think that whoever killed them wasn't a professional, and wasn't thinking straight/in a panic or rage

However, to contradict this theory - I'm not sure why B's gloves would've been dropped on the ground in the garage where he entered. That seems to fit more with an "ambush".

Interested to hear what others think of this.

 

[deugirtni]

Some thoughts, after reading the new Star article:

The resemblance to the sculptures could definitely be coincidental. However, the fact that it specifically mentions that Barry's leg was folded over his other leg seems too specific/awkward of a pose for it not to be intentionally placed in that position. It seems very hard to believe that his legs would end up that way in any other circumstance. So very odd.

I find Kevin Donovan's theory interesting. He believes the murderer wasn't a hit, but rather someone they knew and trusted, and that it started from an argument in the house about money. There's a few things I think support this:

• B & H's estate has been locked down and that the police have hinted that their theory also revolves around the estate/money, and it was known that there were internal family conflicts about this. This theory fits with occam's razor (that the simplest explanation is usually the right one) rather than some complex plot about a hitman or business conspiracy.
• The article also implied that normally B & H aren't home at that time, so it was someone who knew they would be there/who had pre-arranged meeting
• The fact that H's phone was left in a powder room she normally never uses is very odd, and makes me think she may have ran there to escape and was dragged away. But if it was a professional hit, wouldn't they have gone back for her phone or at least done a walk-through of the house to make sure they left no traces behind? This makes me think that whoever killed them wasn't a professional, and wasn't thinking straight/in a panic or rage

However, to contradict this theory - I'm not sure why B's gloves would've been dropped on the ground in the garage where he entered. That seems to fit more with an "ambush".

Interested to hear what others think of this.

If Honey ran to that powder room in fear of someone after her in her own home - I think it would have been easy for her to have called 911 - (some iphones even have a certain way of holding it so that you don't even need to dial the numbers, etc.) That makes me think that it wasn't H who dropped/left the phone there at all, but that it was also planted as part of the staging. (Not that I understand the staging.) If she had the time/ability to run to the powder room that she never used, then surely she would've had time to make that call. Or perhaps also to lock herself inside the powder room, in which case they may have found the door damaged. (But nothing has been mentioned about that from any sources including the realtors who were there before police, and the domestic staff.)

In my mind, I think that leaving no trace behind is incongruous with not thinking straight and being in a panic. The crimescene where the bodies were located seems to indicate the killer(s) had time on his/their hands to make the staging just how he/they wanted it. To me, the scenario seems like more of a planned thing. jmo.

Also, with this further information given in that article, it seems to me that it is impossible for police to have ever really thought this was a murder/suicide or suicide/suicide. Surely they must have had a strategic plan in mind which caused them to (mis)lead the public and family to believe that's what they were thinking. They just *can't possibly* be that stupid. We now know a window was open and a door unlocked giving access to the house. For them to have said 'no sign of forced entry' - while that might be true, it is also misleading if there were obvious ways for strangers to have gained access. It certainly does give the appearance of two separate ambushes upon each owner entering their home that evening. All just imo.

 

[Number8]

If Honey ran to that powder room in fear of someone after her in her own home - I think it would have been easy for her to have called 911 - (some iphones even have a certain way of holding it so that you don't even need to dial the numbers, etc.) That makes me think that it wasn't H who dropped/left the phone there at all, but that it was also planted as part of the staging. (Not that I understand the staging.) If she had the time/ability to run to the powder room that she never used, then surely she would've had time to make that call. Or perhaps also to lock herself inside the powder room, in which case they may have found the door damaged. (But nothing has been mentioned about that from any sources including the realtors who were there before police, and the domestic staff.)

In my mind, I think that leaving no trace behind is incongruous with not thinking straight and being in a panic. The crimescene where the bodies were located seems to indicate the killer(s) had time on his/their hands to make the staging just how he/they wanted it. To me, the scenario seems like more of a planned thing. jmo.

Also, with this further information given in that article, it seems to me that it is impossible for police to have ever really thought this was a murder/suicide or suicide/suicide. Surely they must have had a strategic plan in mind which caused them to (mis)lead the public and family to believe that's what they were thinking. They just *can't possibly* be that stupid. We now know a window was open and a door unlocked giving access to the house. For them to have said 'no sign of forced entry' - while that might be true, it is also misleading if there were obvious ways for strangers to have gained access. It certainly does give the appearance of two separate ambushes upon each owner entering their home that evening. All just imo.

All very good points. Also - why was honey's phone sitting on the vanity face down? If she ran there and was grabbed before she could call 911, one would assume the phone would be found on the ground or strewn somewhere. "sitting on the vanity face down" seems like something you do when you're washing your hands, and not hiding for your life.

I totally agree with you about how bad that first call of murder/suicide was, especially given the placement of the bodies & B's legs. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they did this for strategic reasons - like catching suspects off guard, having people say or do things they wouldn't normally say if they feel the police are watching them? ...but it's more likely just incompetence :/

I'm replaying the video now and I'm wondering if there's also a possibility this had to do with H, rather than B? She was home first, so maybe there was an argument/attack that wasn't meant to happen, and B comes home (unexpectedly) so the attacker has to deal with him too?

 

[JayFriend]

I find Kevin Donovan's theory interesting. He believes the murderer wasn't a hit, but rather someone they knew and trusted, and that it started from an argument in the house about money.

I'm reading Kevin Donovan's book right now. I'm not a speed reader, read maybe an hour each night before going to sleep and books usually take me a couple of weeks. I'm barely past half-way now. The book varies from very interesting to frankly boring with a lot of biographical filler material and anecdotes. From what I have read so far, there's little indication of a commercial or political hit, but many clues of family resentment, antagonism and in-fighting. This is the most dysfunctional extended family I've seen. Given the billions of dollars at stake, I would not be at all surprised if it was one of the family.

 

[Number8]

I'm reading Kevin Donovan's book right now. I'm not a speed reader, read maybe an hour each night before going to sleep and books usually take me a couple of weeks. I'm barely past half-way now. The book varies from very interesting to frankly boring with a lot of biographical filler material and anecdotes. From what I have read so far, there's little indication of a commercial or political hit, but many clues of family resentment, antagonism and in-fighting. This is the most dysfunctional extended family I've seen. Given the billions of dollars at stake, I would not be at all surprised if it was one of the family.

Thanks for the heads up - I have the book but I haven't started yet. I was wondering how much meat there could be at this stage of the investigation with so little info released.

This was an interesting article in the Spec from this summer about tension between B & his son: Barry Sherman’s son raised concerns about Apotex founder’s investment strategy and business competence: Sources - it had me re-watching the eulogy he delivered for mannerisms, authenticity, etc. (of course, its so hard to tell with that stuff, since grief takes many different forms)

 

[MistyWaters]

If Honey ran to that powder room in fear of someone after her in her own home - I think it would have been easy for her to have called 911 - (some iphones even have a certain way of holding it so that you don't even need to dial the numbers, etc.) That makes me think that it wasn't H who dropped/left the phone there at all, but that it was also planted as part of the staging. (Not that I understand the staging.) If she had the time/ability to run to the powder room that she never used, then surely she would've had time to make that call. Or perhaps also to lock herself inside the powder room, in which case they may have found the door damaged. (But nothing has been mentioned about that from any sources including the realtors who were there before police, and the domestic staff.)

In my mind, I think that leaving no trace behind is incongruous with not thinking straight and being in a panic. The crimescene where the bodies were located seems to indicate the killer(s) had time on his/their hands to make the staging just how he/they wanted it. To me, the scenario seems like more of a planned thing. jmo.

Also, with this further information given in that article, it seems to me that it is impossible for police to have ever really thought this was a murder/suicide or suicide/suicide. Surely they must have had a strategic plan in mind which caused them to (mis)lead the public and family to believe that's what they were thinking. They just *can't possibly* be that stupid. We now know a window was open and a door unlocked giving access to the house. For them to have said 'no sign of forced entry' - while that might be true, it is also misleading if there were obvious ways for strangers to have gained access. It certainly does give the appearance of two separate ambushes upon each owner entering their home that evening. All just imo.

I agree, I think it was merely an initial ploy for TPS to leak out the unofficial manner of death as murder/suicide. Instead, during those first six weeks all those who adamantly substantiated the m/s theory to police were considered possible suspects because a m/s “case closed” ruling would be like winning the lottery for anyone directly involved or with knowledge of the murders. If police strategy assists in crime solving, in my opinion that’s far more important than informing the public of evidence. I suspect we still know only a fraction of the details.

I’ve also never believed TPS and the PI team were adversaries. Media reports remind me an awful lot of the old “good guy/bad guy” routine.

Time will tell if any of this will lead to an arrest.....but soon, hopefully.

 

[Satchie]

I totally agree with you about how bad that first call of murder/suicide was, especially given the placement of the bodies & B's legs. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they did this for strategic reasons - like catching suspects off guard, having people say or do things they wouldn't normally say if they feel the police are watching them? ...but it's more likely just incompetence :/

I don't believe there was ever a 'call it murder-suicide" by police, as I've argued before. IMO that was entirely the doing of the intensely impatient and competitive media, who were chomping at the bit to 'call' it something.

Modern policing doesn't jump to conclusions, especially when there is evidence that the scene has been staged.. Plenty of suicides have been staged as murders, plenty of murders have been staged as suicides. The medical examiner makes the 'call', not the police, and often take many months, or over a year, to declare a cause of death when there's any ambiguity. For example, they'll run tox texts, which may take months to come back, and won't declare cause of death until every single test has come back.

EDITED to revise thoughts on who makes the final 'call'.

 

[JoS13]

This CTV article from yesterday (about KD's report and the sculptures) says that " the male and female figurines can be seen in seated positions, each with its left leg crossed over its right"... From the photo, you can see that the female figurine's leg is indeed kind of propped up on her other knee (but not crossed over in the way the male one's is). I'm just thinking - if the killers wanted to deliberately stage the Shermans bodies to look like the sculptures, would they not have put Honey's legs in that same position? The CTV article says "Unlike the female sculpture, however, Honey Sherman’s legs were positioned in front of her when she was found," which is consistent with what has been reported elsewhere. It seems unlikely that the killers would forget this detail in a deliberate staging...?

Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

Note: I'm not sure if the Star article touches on this... The website won't let me read it because I'm not a subscriber . So I apologize if I'm bringing up something that KD touches on there...

 

[JayFriend]

Thanks for the heads up - I have the book but I haven't started yet. I was wondering how much meat there could be at this stage of the investigation with so little info released.

Here is the Table of Contents. I'm finishing Chapter 11, mostly biographical about their wealth an charitable contributions.

Prologue

1 Wrong Turn

2 Being Barry

3 Clues

4 Finding Honey

5 The First 48

6 Beginnings

7 The Trail

8 Make a Bit of Money

9 Family Matters

10 Building a Bigger Empire

11 King and Queen

12 Risky Business

13 Working Theory

14 The Day Of

15 Duelling Investigations

16 The Most Likely Scenario

17 Aftermath

It looks like there are more revelations ahead in the book. I won't spoil it for myself or anyone else. I'm sure KD would not have released the book without some theory as to the perps as we're approaching a possible announcement from TPS is the near future.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Joe Warmington
@joe_warmington

Neighbour says the Sherman house a year or so before the murder had intruders break in by going through the skylight in the roof.

(brief interview of neighbour at link)

Joe Warmington on Twitter

ETA:
More from Warmington with video interviews at link:
Joe Warmington
@joe_warmington
·
2m

Is a link possible between a New York City doctors strange “suicide” that looks more like a murder and the weird slaying of the Shermans that was also staged as a potential suicide - asks a friend of the billionaires? Both tried to help the people of Haiti. Now they are all dead
Joe Warmington on Twitter

Pizza, wings, ice cream cones and basketball-a friend describes the kindness and generosity of Honey and Barry Sherman at the time of the two year anniversary of their mysterious double murder. Heather Gilbert prefers to remember the good times. #shermans
Joe Warmington on Twitter

 

[Number8]

This CTV article from yesterday (about KD's report and the sculptures) says that " the male and female figurines can be seen in seated positions, each with its left leg crossed over its right"... From the photo, you can see that the female figurine's leg is indeed kind of propped up on her other knee (but not crossed over in the way the male one's is). I'm just thinking - if the killers wanted to deliberately stage the Shermans bodies to look like the sculptures, would they not have put Honey's legs in that same position? The CTV article says "Unlike the female sculpture, however, Honey Sherman’s legs were positioned in front of her when she was found," which is consistent with what has been reported elsewhere. It seems unlikely that the killers would forget this detail in a deliberate staging...?

Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

Note: I'm not sure if the Star article touches on this... The website won't let me read it because I'm not a subscriber . So I apologize if I'm bringing up something that KD touches on there...

I'm not sure if that's actually true or if it's an error in reporting. If you look at the picture of the sculpture it seems to me that the male figure has a leg crossed while the female one clearly doesn't. Here's the picture, and I highlighted what seems to be the second leg: https://i.imgur.com/si9vPXD.jpg

 

[nuff]

Just watched the video that appears in today's Toronto Star, narrated by KD. I may have missed this in the book, but he refers to the damage to HS' face as "post-mortem", possibly from being dragged down the staircase. Given all the earlier speculation about HS possibly fighting her attacker, or even being hurt in front of her husband, is the fact that the injuries were post-mortem new information? (And wasn't there earlier information about blood found with her body? Post-mortem wounds don't bleed.)