Maybe as you say, the TPS can’t interfere with the Coroners Office. But the PI’s and Greenspan and a former Chief Pathologist hired by the family did in fact influence the Provincial Coroners Office to make a determination of murder, when previously the cod was undetermined!!
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13
- Thread starter dotr
- Start date
- Status
Maybe as you say, the TPS can’t interfere with the Coroners Office. But the PI’s and Greenspan and a former Chief Pathologist hired by the family did in fact influence the Provincial Coroners Office to make a determination of murder, when previously the cod was undetermined!!
Question for legal experts here- if a lawyer was holding the original copy of honeys will when she was murdered, would the lawyer be obligated to report to police the fact that he had this will? What if he only had a copy, would he/she be obligated to report it?
If honey had the original copy and it was never found, I think now more than ever before that these killings are linked to the contents of the Sherman’s wills, and intentions for their estates.
If honey had the original copy and it was never found, I think now more than ever before that these killings are linked to the contents of the Sherman’s wills, and intentions for their estates.
Would it even be necessary for this person to have used an active cellphone? If you sign in with an 'apple ID', is it even necessary to also have a 'phone number'? And if the person used 'wifi' instead of a cellphone's data plan, they wouldn't even necessarily need to have a cellphone account with a provider. Just similar to using 'facebook phone', where all you need is a FB account and a wifi connection from anywhere. It seems that to get an apple ID, you don't necessarily need a phone number, but need an email, which anyone can make an additional email address whenever they want. If this person on the facetime was 'silent', perhaps it was because they were viewing from a public wifi location, such as a cafe, library, university, etc?
You can use FaceTime on any of these devices on Wi-Fi: iPhone 4 or later, iPad Pro (all models), iPad 2 or later, iPad mini (all models), and iPod touch 4th generation or later (only iPod touch 5th generation or later support FaceTime audio calling).
Use FaceTime with your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch
Many callers call the listing agent and don't already have their own 'buyer agent', which means the listing agent gets to 'double end' the deal if a sale goes through. But surely the Sherman listing agent wouldn't have been willing to do a whole (facetime) tour without ensuring this person met criteria to actually be able to buy the home, and most realtors now won't give people the time of day without them signing a buyer agreement.
Would a potential 'murderer' who'd seen the property advertised with all of its photos and floorplans even need to have a live or factime tour of the home? It would be interesting if the 'service provider' was able to elaborate on any areas which may have been covered in the tour, ie exterior entrances, and their proximity to other rooms and other entrances/exits, etc.
casesensitive
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2012
- Messages
- 1,280
- Reaction score
- 8,470
If the Sherman's realty firm advertises homes internationally, the face time call could have originated from a client who lives outside of Canada, eg Israel, China, USA etc.
Researchnut
Active Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2013
- Messages
- 146
- Reaction score
- 105
The PI's post mortem examination is the one that discovered the fact that their wrists had been bound. I am not sure how TPS missed this FACT. I disagree with KD's assumption that this was not a professional hit. You can pay a hitman extra to make a scene look exceptionally shocking(mirrors around the pool area) and strangulation is also a known method of a hitman signature. TPS had bungled several murder investigations during this time. IMO, not enough manpower, money or proper training.
Researchnut
Active Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2013
- Messages
- 146
- Reaction score
- 105
Exactly, and if you wanted to case their movements, there is a highrise building not far from their home. You would not have to do case the home with drivebys as most professional hitmen seem to be doing here in Canada lately
.
I use Facetime and I need someone’s phone number to access them but I do not have a phone. Only an iPad so no phone number for me.
But it says for the user, they must enter their Apple ID.
I have contacted Apple about problems with my iPad in the past. They can see my iPad.It is freaky.
So it seems there must be info somehow from the caller. I know all iPads have a serial number. I do not have an iPhone so I have no clue about the phone
MistyWaters
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2017
- Messages
- 12,003
- Reaction score
- 67,207
It’s very typical for the Cause of death to be determined immediately, hypothetical example, say gunshot but following that the Manner (ie suicide, accidental, homicide) requires additional weeks of investigation particularly in cases where there are no witnesses. Until such time as the Manner of death is determined by the Coroner’s Office, yes it’s fair to say it’s undetermined.....because it hasn’t yet been determined.
However regarding the Sherman’s deaths, there was no official announcement that the Manner of their deaths was Undetermined. The double homicide was announced on Jan 26, 2018 iirc and regardless of how the Coroner’s Office arrived at that conclusion, we can be certain that’s what’s recorded within the final autopsy report. Otherwise the TPS would not be investigating a Double Homicide.
I’m not sure how it’s come to be believed the Coroner’s Office and TPS are independent investigators of deaths because that’s not true at all. If they didn’t work as a team, imagine a murder trial whereby the Provincial Coroner and Pathologists who investigates suspicious deaths as a unit all become key defence witnesses and testified perhaps, we’re not quite sure, a suicide occurred instead of a murder.
Also the fact the TPS Homicide Team took responsibility for the investigation on day 2 iirc is another clue which direction the investigation was taking early on, under the direction of the Coroner’s Office preliminary findings IMO.
Last edited:
MistyWaters
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2017
- Messages
- 12,003
- Reaction score
- 67,207
Skin from the wrists had already been removed by the Provincial Coroner’s Office during the initial autopsy iirc, prior to the 2nd autopsy by the pathologist working for the PI team.
No member of TPS conducts or analyze autopsies. Police do not do so because they’re neither trained as doctors nor medical experts. The same procedure is followed throughout every province in Canada, similar to the USA where police departments and Coroners also work hand in hand.
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of the Solicitor General
Common questions about death investigations
What are coroners?
Coroners are medical doctors with specialized death investigation training, who have been appointed to investigate sudden deaths as mandated by the Coroners Act.
What are pathologists and forensic pathologists?
Pathologists are medical doctors who are experts in disease and injury. Forensic pathologists have further training and are experts in disease and injury that result in sudden death. Pathologists and forensic pathologists are the medical doctors who perform autopsies, when required. Forensic pathologists may also be appointed as coroners to investigate cases of suspicious death.
What is a death investigation?
A death investigation is a process whereby a coroner or forensic pathologist seeks to understand how and why a person died. A coroner or forensic pathologist must answer five questions when investigating a death:
- Who (identity of the deceased)
- When (date of death)
- Where (location of death)
- How (medical cause of death)
- By what means (natural causes, accident, homicide, suicide or undetermined)
How are police involved?
Police are usually among the first responders at a death scene. Coroners may request police assistance with investigations.
Yes, they work together, but there is a clear division of responsibilities. The Coroner's office doesn't try to direct police about who they should investigate as suspects, nor can the police, or the police higher-ups, pressure the Coroner to make a particular call on the manner of death, as has been alleged by several on this forum.
Also, I don't think police can 'sit' on the Coronor's office findings of homicide. In the past, there was always a public inquest, so that people could know immediately, and I think that principle still applies. Police must inform the public as soon as a death has been declared a homicide, because it is very much in the community interest to know.
IMO it is just as likely that the killers were hired, but not "professional", with whomever hired them being careful to be well away from the scene until after the bodies had been found. But why strangulation, when a bullet or two (and a silencer) would be more efficient and reliable?
I wonder if this was a well-planned event by persons well-known to the Shermans.. and the planning went so far as to make a Facetime-call from a bogus account/burner phone using public wifi, to make it appear that it could be real estate related, knowing that all those photos and floorplans were also on public display. How convenient to make it look like it may have been related somehow to the house and its sale and the realtors. (ie the question about the security of the lockbox, the broken pool cam, the copy of the home inspection being left, the photos posted online and print magazine, the weird facetime-call, the realtors trying to get ahold of the couple to schedule a showing, the realtors being first to find the bodies, the main realtor being out of country at the time, the showing of the home in the days before the murders to a couple of 'odd ducks', etc.) Look over there and not here, type of thing?
I do hope TPS has thoroughly investigated the people involved in the lawsuits won by the Shermans many years ago regarding the building/design of their custom home at 50 Old Colony. I can only imagine that a deep and lasting grudge may have resulted if one of those contractors' lives may have been severely affected by it. Then to many years later see the home listed for sale in a big spread touting the very things which may have been involved in the lawsuits. We have seen before in cases how grudges can fester away in seeming silence until one day it explodes.
When I read kds latest article I thought the service provider he was referring to might be the personal trainer also. But honeys (female) personal trainer was quoted by name in kds book, so if she is the source of this latest info, I don’t see the rationale for him to call her a service provider.
Given that police Evidently asked the service provider about marks etc on honeys body, I am thinking it’s someone like a physiotherapist, massage therapist, etc. I’m not sure if the trainer that showed up at the house on the Day the bodies were discovered was the same trainer as the woman in the book, I seem to recall that person was a male. So it could be him also.
If, as kd states in his recent article, the Sherman’s estate lawyer stated in court “ we don’t know if there is no will” then I have to presume that at that time at least, the original will document had not been located. One has to wonder if it was kept in the house and went missing at the time of the murders.
The Star article says HS met the "service provider" informant at Yonge & St. Clair, because she had just updated her will - and I assumed that meant the law office was close by. The firm listed as the Sherman's estate lawyer is on Wellington St., nowhere near there. So, perhaps HS had made her will with a different law firm, unbeknownst to the estate lawyer and maybe even her spouse, and then updated it.
- Status