Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #118

[Ozoner]

Turns out staging is common enough police have a lot of protocols around it.

MOO Odd then to me would mean something isn't right about the staging.
Trying to make a scene look like a serial killer did it, but actually the murders were a more common form, personal murder(s).
Then staging it to misdirect to look like a random serial killer murder.

Lots of evidence
Odd evidence
Strange CS

If an acquaintance can stage a murder scene to make it look like a serial killer did it, then it stands to reason that a serial killer could stage a murder scene to make it look like an acquaintance did it.
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If it was a very violent crime scene, with what looked like overkill, then LE's first thought may have been that the girls were killed by someone they knew, hence the statement that the community wasn't in danger. A violent crime scene wouldn't be proof of staging, however. It may just be that local LE and even the staties in Indiana were unaccustomed dealing with murders like these and drew incorrect conclusions.
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There are many ways that BG may have staged the crime scene. For instance, he may have killed the girls and then posed them to make it look like some kind of ritualistic sacrifice, or he may have posed the girls in such a way as to make it look like the girls had been romantically involved and killed as a hate crime against same-sex couples. If BG was intending to mislead LE with such staging, then being filmed ruined his plans.
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I think a serial killer like BG would have done something to degrade the girls and show his contempt for society. (I remember reading somehere that one serial killer left a victim's body right next to a "No Littering" sign, for instance.)

 

[Charlot123]

If an acquaintance can stage a murder scene to make it look like a serial killer did it, then it stands to reason that a serial killer could stage a murder scene to make it look like an acquaintance did it.
-
If it was a very violent crime scene, with what looked like overkill, then LE's first thought may have been that the girls were killed by someone they knew, hence the statement that the community wasn't in danger. A violent crime scene wouldn't be proof of staging, however. It may just be that local LE and even the staties in Indiana were unaccustomed dealing with murders like these and drew incorrect conclusions.
-
There are many ways that BG may have staged the crime scene. For instance, he may have killed the girls and then posed them to make it look like some kind of ritualistic sacrifice, or he may have posed the girls in such a way as to make it look like the girls had been romantically involved and killed as a hate crime against same-sex couples. If BG was intending to mislead LE with such staging, then being filmed ruined his plans.
-
I think a serial killer like BG would have done something to degrade the girls and show his contempt for society. (I remember reading somehere that one serial killer left a victim's body right next to a "No Littering" sign, for instance.)

Not about this case but in general. It might be staged to look like a cult, or an unhappy, disgruntled lover, and IRL the perp is simply tired of paying child support, for example.

As to “no litter” case, some of these SKs have dry, abrasive sense of humor that regular people do not understand. I think the “no litter” killer was in that category.

 

[Charlot123]

Actually, there are quite a few serial killers that kill men. They may kill the man as part of a couple or they may just be indiscriminate killers.

Killers that have explosive rage will lash out at who ever is nearby. Sometimes it is their family and sometimes it is an acquaintance or coworker but sometimes it is a stranger.

Of course this is a list of known SKs.
List of serial killers by number of victims - Wikipedia


But per one SK that kills the whole family (usually robbing the house, too), there are probably 9 that kill women and children. One guy targeted homeless older drunk men, but my opinion is the same, a coward.

These are not alpha-males that kill to ascertain their status among males. These are probably delta males that aren’t afraid only of the weak, women and children.

Look at the BG, a kill kit to attack a 13- and 14-year-old girls...Shame!

 

[margarita25]

GEDmatch Acquired by Company With Ties to FBI & Law Enforcement—Why You Should Be Worried

There's a real question whether a warrant that allows this kind of search could ever meet the particularity requirements of the Fourth Amendment.

O/T, this reminds me, I read something a while back where customers have the option to “opt out” of accessibility by LE to their DNA, and that as a result this has put a big dent in the success of capturing criminals.

GEDmatch Acquired by Company With Ties to FBI & Law Enforcement—Why You Should Be Worried

There's a real question whether a warrant that allows this kind of search could ever meet the particularity requirements of the Fourth Amendment.

“This week, GEDmatch, a genetic genealogy company that gained notoriety for giving law enforcement access to its customers’ DNA data, quietly informed its users it is now operated by Verogen, Inc., a company expressly formed two years ago to market “next-generation [DNA] sequencing” technology to crime labs.

What this means for GEDmatch’s 1.3 million users—and for the 60% of white Americans who share DNA with those users—remains to be seen.”

—-

Link posted here (the BEST THREAD EVER), thanks JJ:

DNA Solves Cold Cases/Parabon Nanolabs & GED/Match.

(@dotr) (@Niner)
(@Suglo)
(@watcher9) (@imstilla.grandma )

(ETA: I see you guys are already talking about this over there)

 

[kc1023]

That's an interesting question. I'm not convinced he's a serial killer who targets only young girls. I'm also not convinced there is only 1 person involved.

Honestly, much of the info LE has put out there is so frustratingly ambiguous that I'm not convinced of much of anything.

Why did Holeman say that if he didn't believe it?

Jumping off this post:

Nicole Bowen's murderer, Garett Kirts, has allegedly murdered her and an older man (not charged yet), separately but somewhat connected - and GK is from the general area with Delphi connections as close as RL's property.

Just to say that sometimes killers don't have an apparent "type" it seems.

 

[pixiepixel]

MOO Staging a CS is in and of its.elf is not odd.


Another thing -

'We believe this person is currently between the age range of 18 and 40, but might appear younger than his true age."

That would be between the ages of 16 and 38 on 2/13/17.

The age range thing has always puzzled me. "Might appear younger than his true age" - how could they know that? My first impression was that this meant they had a suspect in mind already.

Why such a large range? You'd be hard pressed to find an 18 year old and a 40 year old who look the same age. Not to mention at least 50% of suspects are going to fall within that range. Not easy to rule anyone out like that.

Also, it's fairly common for people to look older than they really are - especially young adults, like a 17 year old who looks 20 - but for men especially, it seems rare to find someone who looks younger.

This is particularly confusing because most people who saw the photo of BG immediately pegged him as 40+ years old. And now we're told he could be as young as 18, and look like a 16 year old? That doesn't fit at all with what I see in the video. When I look at the stills of BG, I see a middle aged man or a very grizzled young man who could appear much older.

Really, really confusing stuff. As much as I'd like to know more about this crime, I don't think any of us have a right to more information from LE just to sate our curiosities. Nonetheless, I think ISP has put out a lot of conflicting and confusing information that needs to be cleared up - starting with some clarification and explanations about the two sketches.

 

[pixiepixel]

(Mods, my apologies if this isn't allowed - feel free to remove)

The r/UnresolvedMysteries subreddit has had a lot of activity on this case lately. This morning someone posted about similarities between BG and the murderer of Cynthia Hoffman. JMO, I don't see the resemblance.

Last week there was also a post where the OP thought BG was someone they went to high school with. Supposedly they submitted a tip about it.

As time passes and this case grows more infamous, I think we'll see more stuff like this. I hope the people posting these types of things are sincere, and not just farming for more internet points. This is a horrific, tragic case and we all want justice for Abby and Libby. It's cruel to take advantage of that for some 15 minutes of fame.

 

[tresir2012]

Thank you tresir. Do you remember if she posted photos of her paintings or drawings? The night before she went to the bridge, she and Abby stayed up well into the night doing a chocolate painting, whatever that is. I'm not interested in messages or comments, only artwork, and I don't need to know what the artwork is, only that she posted it. TIA

I don't recall that. But I do believe they posted to musically that night IIRC. now called TikTok I believe. I think it has been posted on here before. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[tresir2012]

This is a compilation put together by Julie Melvin of Libby's music videos.

 

[margarita25]

I don't recall that. But I do believe they posted to musically that night IIRC. now called TikTok I believe. I think it has been posted on here before. I'll see if I can find it.

I’m not sure I recall this? Of course details are fading for me unfortunately with the progression of time...

 

[margarita25]

This is a compilation put together by Julie Melvin of Libby's music videos.

Omggggg I’ve never seen this...I don’t think


Omg I want to cry!! She seems so little in the first clip .


ETA: OMG. this feels surreal watching this...

Adorable. Normally I wouldn’t be into this kind of music but she is really precious.

She was a bright kid wasn’t she...

—-

WHO KILLED THEM??!!

 

[SeattleStew]

I was struck by the use of the words: "strange", "odd", and "bizarre" spoken by LE in the preview for the new podcast, "Scene of the Crime", and I wondered what LE thinks those words mean in relation to a murder crime scene. While we have debated whether or not BG is a SK, I found this online:

This document from the United States FBI online which is a training manual for investigators called "Serial Killers-Pathways for Investigations": (I have italicized text from manual)

Sexual Contact
There was evidence that 72 offenders (78 1%) committed 350 sex acts on 226 victims (see Table A 2) DNA was recovered in 22 7% of the cases and victims were found nude or partially nude in 64 5% of the cases Bindings were utilized in 29 0% of the cases There were a few cases of unusual crime scene behaviors In fifteen cases the body cavities/genitalia of the victims were mutilated, bite marks were evident in nine cases, six cases of evisceration, three cases of cannibalism, three cases of carving/writing and two cases where the victims were skinned There was also evidence of post-mortem mutilation in 12 1% of the cases and post mortem sex in 15 0% of the cases.

Also:

Only seven victims (1.5%) were displayed at the crime scene which is in contrast to other studies of serial murder that reported much higher frequencies of this behavior (Ressler et al., 1986; Douglas & Olshaker,1995; Chan & Heide, 2009).

Is this the type of strange, odd, and bizarre behavior BG may have committed? That's really far out there. The heinous murder of two little girls is heartbreaking enough without having a brutal killer commit acts that LE consider bizarre, odd and strange. God bless them and their families.

I honestly hope never to hear the details of their murders, I only present this as a way to think of BG, and what a cold, heartless, SOB, coward, mf'er, , "it" is. Unhuman IMO.

 

[margarita25]

I was struck by the use of the words: "strange", "odd", and "bizarre" spoken by LE in the preview for the new podcast, "Scene of the Crime", and I wondered what LE thinks those words mean in relation to a murder crime scene. While we have debated whether or not BG is a SK, I found this online:

This document from the United States FBI online which is a training manual for investigators called "Serial Killers-Pathways for Investigations": (I have italicized text from manual)

Sexual Contact
There was evidence that 72 offenders (78 1%) committed 350 sex acts on 226 victims (see Table A 2) DNA was recovered in 22 7% of the cases and victims were found nude or partially nude in 64 5% of the cases Bindings were utilized in 29 0% of the cases There were a few cases of unusual crime scene behaviors In fifteen cases the body cavities/genitalia of the victims were mutilated, bite marks were evident in nine cases, six cases of evisceration, three cases of cannibalism, three cases of carving/writing and two cases where the victims were skinned There was also evidence of post-mortem mutilation in 12 1% of the cases and post mortem sex in 15 0% of the cases.

Also:

Only seven victims (1.5%) were displayed at the crime scene which is in contrast to other studies of serial murder that reported much higher frequencies of this behavior (Ressler et al., 1986; Douglas & Olshaker,1995; Chan & Heide, 2009).

Is this the type of strange, odd, and bizarre behavior BG may have committed? That's really far out there. The heinous murder of two little girls is heartbreaking enough without having a brutal killer commit acts that LE consider bizarre, odd and strange. God bless them and their families.

I honestly hope never to hear the details of their murders, I only present this as a way to think of BG, and what a cold, heartless, SOB, coward, mf'er, *******, *** "it" is. Unhuman IMO.

(O/T, this manual can also be found here for quick reference, I created a thread for this in the databases section a while back:

U.S. DOJ / FBI / BAU / Serial Murder - Pathways for Investigations )

ETA: @SeattleStew , can you please link the podcast/preview you mention? I am VERY interested to hear what you’re talking about re: their adjectives! Tia

 

[sunshineray]

I've been unable to find the answer to this. If nothing else, I think they were probably regular churchgoers and associated with some other church-related groups. Libby's grandfather, Dennis Bridge, said, "We are Christians and Liberty went to church in Delphi." Abby's obituary said she attended several area churches with her family.

Libby's funeral was held at the Delphi United Methodist Church and vigils for both girls were held at this church.

I've only been able to find one video of the girls together and this is it, so for me it's poignant and special. They sing together beautifully.

Judi, this was done in 2015...are you sure that is Abby and Libby?

 

[sunshineray]

(O/T, this manual can also be found here for quick reference, I created a thread for this in the databases section:

U.S. DOJ / FBI / BAU / Serial Murder - Pathways for Investigations )

ETA: @SeattleStew , can you please link the podcast/preview you mention? I am VERY interested to hear what you’re talking about re: their adjectives! Tia

Megaphone: A Modern Podcasting Platform by Panoply

 

[taximama24]

Snippets from the Scene of the Crime podcast
Prosecutor, Robert Ives: There is a lot of crime scene evidence. Some of it is somewhat odd. The crime scene was physically strange. There was no logical reason why anybody would have known those girls would be there that day.
Unknown male: As soon as I saw that, I knew something really bad happened.
Unknown male: It’s hard for me to believe anybody could do something so bizarre and horrible and not feel compelled to tell somebody about it.

Not to mention the words of Carter at the presser "And I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today."

RB&SBM
Something new to ponder is always a welcome change, and looking at all of this together definitely feels like it reveals more of the story we didn't know IMO. A few possibilities from my attempt to read between the (bolded) lines here:

• The killer tried after the fact to make it seem like a murder - suicide or a double suicide but to the trained eyes of LE it was clear it wasn't.
• Something there led LE to believe the killer had prepped for bringing these specific girls there and/or was waiting for them, which confuses LE because they found no evidence of a pre-arranged meet-up.
• The bodies were lying contorted in some way that does not happen naturally, or there was clear evidence of torture.

I think the prosecutor's comments are the most compelling for me. "A lot of crime scene evidence" seems counter to the idea of a quick kill (based on the timeline that afternoon) with a gun (that seems clearly visible in BG's pocket, if BG was ultimately the killer). "Somewhat odd" means surely there was something different about it that fell outside of the realm of "typical" for a murder scene based on cases the prosecutor is familiar with from his training/experience/tacit knowledge. But most of all "physically strange" really stands out to me the most. This was the open woods in the winter, so not a lot of variety for what would make it "physically normal" but yet even so something was atypical of his expectations. I'll have to let this one noodle around for a bit, I can't quite put my finger on what's eating at me about his comments.

 

[Charlot123]

O/T, this reminds me, I read something a while back where customers have the option to “opt out” of accessibility by LE to their DNA, and that as a result this has put a big dent in the success of capturing criminals.



“This week, GEDmatch, a genetic genealogy company that gained notoriety for giving law enforcement access to its customers’ DNA data, quietly informed its users it is now operated by Verogen, Inc., a company expressly formed two years ago to market “next-generation [DNA] sequencing” technology to crime labs.

What this means for GEDmatch’s 1.3 million users—and for the 60% of white Americans who share DNA with those users—remains to be seen.”

—-

Link posted here (the BEST THREAD EVER), thanks JJ:

DNA Solves Cold Cases/Parabon Nanolabs & GED/Match.

(@dotr) (@Niner)
(@Suglo)
(@watcher9) (@imstilla.grandma )

(ETA: I see you guys are already talking about this over there)

Well, there are ways to opt out of Gedmatch and switch over to My Heritage as most 23@me users transfer their DNA to My Heritage anyhow. Or opt out of gedmatch and transfer DNA to geni.com. (Now as the monopolies come in and openly buy it all, even I might opt out now, as personal anti-monopoly measure).

(Although...I think if they want your DNA, they have it. I am sure China has mine).

There is one issue that I think started it all...

Parabon charges a lot. And Gedmatch was totally free. And between a company run by two enthusiasts and a commercial company, advertising its use of a free platform, sooner or later there would be issues.

So of course, Gedmatch owners probably felt naive, as they invested their time and money, and existed on own enthusiasm. I was supporting them, it was $10.00 a month. But for lots of others, it was free.

So they sold out to the biggest bidder.

 

[Charlot123]

That's an interesting question. I'm not convinced he's a serial killer who targets only young girls. I'm also not convinced there is only 1 person involved.

Honestly, much of the info LE has put out there is so frustratingly ambiguous that I'm not convinced of much of anything.

Why did Holeman say that if he didn't believe it?

Well, he killed two and Holeman warns he might kill more. One more will make him a SK. And if there are two or three involved, even worse!

But honestly, most of them kill weak people. Some predators...the same type that would kill animals on safaris! Despicable. IRL, they are afraid of strong males.

(Or the guy who killed cats in Thurston County. What would you think of him? A true coward!)

 

[Evinrude]

Here is what I will say, my 2 daughters (16 y/o), are on SM. There is a popular app that had a “ghost” mode. This allows any app follower to know exactly where you are at at all times.
My one daughter is a sober cab for many kids as she avoids parties but will pick up friends who have been drinking and give them a ride home. A few weeks ago, a party got busted and kids scattered. Her one friend needed a ride so she just followed her “ghost” and found her whereabouts to give her a ride home.
how creepy is that?

 

[Evinrude]

Dp delete