Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[Lexiintoronto]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that filing anything other than a construction lien requires a court order. I don't believe individuals can just file liens against other people's property willy nilly.

That’s what I was thinking. It requires a court judgment of some sort validating the claim.

KW said he’s put a 20% lien on Apotex (1 billion approximately) when in over two years since his court loss he cannot even file the complete paperwork for the appeal in a timely fashion?

If what he has said is not true, I would think Apotex would be going after him for libel.

Quote about the ‘lien’ :

“'They thought it was over but I'm taking my case to the Supreme Court of Canada. They want to sell the company, but they can't because I've got a 20 per cent lien on it.'”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

 

[ldlager]

I can't access KD's previous articles (non-subscriber) but I recall it was stated that (maybe a year--year and a half later) BS was in a cash position to give his son the funds that he requested, and he did so. It seems that BS gave into JS request for money after all.

Actually, he didnt give the money to JS. He loaned the $ to a company ultimately controlled by JS and his business partner, AP, and took back security in the form of mortgages and other security interests based on what we know.
JS was NOT the ONLY beneficiary of these loans!!!!!!

 

[ldlager]

I can't access KD's previous articles (non-subscriber) but I recall it was stated that (maybe a year--year and a half later) BS was in a cash position to give his son the funds that he requested, and he did so. It seems that BS gave into JS request for money after all.

Actually, he didnt give the money to JS. He loaned the $ to a company ultimately controlled by JS and his business partner, AP, and took back security in the form of mortgages and other security interests based on what we know.
JS was NOT the ONLY beneficiary of these loans!!!!!!

 

[Tighthead]

That’s what I was thinking. It requires a court judgment of some sort validating the claim.

KW said he’s put a 20% lien on Apotex (1 billion approximately) when in over two years since his court loss he cannot even file the complete paperwork for the appeal in a timely fashion?

It wouldn’t require a judgement, just an order prior to trial. It does happen that people are able to do so, especially when they are seeking an actual ownership interest and not just damages.

It would likely require subsequent orders following the dismissal of the case at trial and appeal.

 

[ldlager]

that has always been in the back of my mind. the thought that BS and/or HS (especially) were going to give a large part of their estate to charity.

the winter stuff is hard to judge... i do see KW at some point saying he just wanted BS recognition of his father. not sure if that's credible (maybe yes)...... louis winter wouldn't have built apotex. lots of reasons why not. some having to do with BS (generics corporate value-add is legal, not chemistry), others simply timing/age/etc.

not that F'DA's opinion should be given significant weight, but he seems to rule out KW and siblings.. in fact, his comment narrows things down alot if he is correct.

You are absolutely correct- FDA's opinion isn't worth anything

 

[Tighthead]

You are absolutely correct- FDA's opinion isn't worth anything

Does anyone other than Warmington and the Daily Mail take him seriously?

The guy is a pathetic self-promoter who will do anything for attention. While I find his relationship with BS interesting, he would be the worst source.

 

[Satchie]

It wouldn’t require a judgement, just an order prior to trial. It does happen that people are able to do so, especially when they are seeking an actual ownership interest and not just damages.

It would likely require subsequent orders following the dismissal of the case at trial and appeal.

It sure is confusing, since as far as I can tell, KW currently owes the Sherman estate $8.3 M. If there's any liens filed, I'd assume they were against KW, not the other way around!

 

[Satchie]

“'They thought it was over but I'm taking my case to the Supreme Court of Canada. They want to sell the company, but they can't because I've got a 20 per cent lien on it.'”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

No one gets to decide to take their case to the Supreme Court. You can apply, but the court chooses whether or not to hear the case. They only choose cases where there are important points of law to be clarified. The Winter's lost their last appeal and the court judge called their claim "wishful thinking and beyond fanciful". Why would the Supreme court agree to hear the appeal?
Supreme Court of Canada - Important information about seeking leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada

Edited to add from above link "Of the approximately 600 leave applications submitted each year, only about 80 are granted. The possibility of succeeding in getting an appeal heard is in general remote"

 

[Lexiintoronto]

No one gets to decide to take their case to the Supreme Court. You can apply, but the court chooses whether or not to hear the case. They only choose cases where there are important points of law to be clarified. The Winter's lost their last appeal and the court judge called their claim "wishful thinking and beyond fanciful". Why would the Supreme court agree to hear the appeal?
Supreme Court of Canada - Important information about seeking leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada

Edited to add from above link "Of the approximately 600 leave applications submitted each year, only about 80 are granted. The possibility of succeeding in getting an appeal heard is in general remote"

So they have a 0.13% chance of just being *heard*, never mind going on to winning - what? The right to sue?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Winter et al group didn’t even make it to trial with the lawsuit in the lower courts.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that filing anything other than a construction lien requires a court order. I don't believe individuals can just file liens against other people's property willy nilly.

Not to mention that Apotex is its own entity, separate from Barry Sherman, and I believe it was Barry Sherman and not Apotex who signed an offer to purchase several decades ago for which he was the highest bidder of two parties when the trustees had put the business up for sale because they were failing at running it as profitably as they should have been. So yes, I don't believe any old person can just walk into the land registry office (or wherever you go to put a lien on a business) and put a lien on one's incorporated business for any perceived injustices with a shareholder of said business. imo.

Edited to add bracketed part.

 

[deugirtni]

That’s what I was thinking. It requires a court judgment of some sort validating the claim.

KW said he’s put a 20% lien on Apotex (1 billion approximately) when in over two years since his court loss he cannot even file the complete paperwork for the appeal in a timely fashion?

If what he has said is not true, I would think Apotex would be going after him for libel.

Quote about the ‘lien’ :

“'They thought it was over but I'm taking my case to the Supreme Court of Canada. They want to sell the company, but they can't because I've got a 20 per cent lien on it.'”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

Not to mention that he has already lost both his lawsuit and his appeal of said lawsuit. Just because he wishes to spend the money to take his case to the SCC doesn't for one second mean that he would now suddenly be successful and the other courts' rulings would be overturned. Pure malarky. Has the SCC even agreed to hear this case?

 

[Tighthead]

Not to mention that Apotex is its own entity, separate from Barry Sherman, and I believe it was Barry Sherman and not Apotex who signed an offer to purchase several decades ago for which he was the highest bidder of two parties when the trustees had put the business up for sale because they were failing at running it as profitably as they should have been. So yes, I don't believe any old person can just walk into the land registry office and put a lien on one's incorporated business for any perceived injustices with a shareholder of said business. imo.

Aren’t they claiming an equitable interest in the shares, as opposed to simple damages?

It is possible that at some point the Winters group were able to restrict the disposal of some of the outstanding shares. It wouldn’t really mean much as they don’t trade freely.

 

[deugirtni]

You are absolutely correct- FDA's opinion isn't worth anything

FWIW, FDA was a good friend of BS, and BS obviously thought enough of him to continue investing in him. Someone has to speak up on behalf of BS when all of this negative BS is being aired in public. I'm glad there are some people willing to speak up for the man who did things for them. I'm sure that BS's investments in FDA's ventures were also loans, but yet still appreciated. Amazing, huh? imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Aren’t they claiming an equitable interest in the shares, as opposed to simple damages?

It is possible that at some point the Winters group were able to restrict the disposal of some of the outstanding shares. It wouldn’t really mean much as they don’t trade freely.

Can anyone just go to wherever-the-heck-you go/court and say, 'hello, I would like to say that I feel and truly believe that I am entitled to 20% ownership in this billion dollar company, even though I have lost all lawsuits stating that, and so therefore I'd like a lien put on the business'? Surely people can't just arbitrarily do that without proven justification and a signed contract, etc? If it's not possible to sell the business, perhaps it is more likely due to the fact that BS's estate is not yet settled? imo.

 

[human]

Barry gave Kerry millions. Kerry could have made practically any business he wanted. Undercapitalization is the main driver of business failure. But Kerry would not have that issue. He never made it even with all of the help he got.

Barry by his brains and determination but not lots of funds, became successful,

Kerry, who had every opportunity to make it , thinks he is owed part of Barry’s business.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

“The Supreme Court of Canada only hears cases that it considers to be of public importance and to have national significance.”
https://canada.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/ccs-ajc/pdf/courten.pdf

Edit: I got it all wrong. The Sherman Estate’s case made it to the Supreme Court.

They started the process in June, 2019 and the court date was set in December.

Supreme Court of Canada - SCC Case Information - Docket - 38695


Kerry Winter et al started the process in October, 2018 and the file is still incomplete:

Supreme Court of Canada - SCC Case Information - Docket - 38899

ETA: Changed who the applicant was in the Estate versus Donovan case.

 

[deugirtni]

Even Barry's own business was a tough go. It took ingenuity and perseverance to get it going and keep it going, etc.. something that Lou Winter's company didn't have after his death. The company was withering without him at the helm and so the trustees were cutting their losses by putting the business up for sale. Imagine if Barry hadn't been the highest bidder and some other businessman/business bought it instead? The proceeds of said sale would've gone to the estate/trust fund for the kids, and that is it. Mind you, back then, that was a lot of money that with some good investment strategy would've done well for those orphan children. It's just never enough for some people, is it?

 

[Tighthead]

Can anyone just go to wherever-the-heck-you go/court and say, 'hello, I would like to say that I feel and truly believe that I am entitled to 20% ownership in this billion dollar company, even though I have lost all lawsuits stating that, and so therefore I'd like a lien put on the business'? Surely people can't just arbitrarily do that without proven justification and a signed contract, etc? If it's not possible to sell the business, perhaps it is more likely due to the fact that BS's estate is not yet settled? imo.

No, and nobody is suggesting that.

At any time after commencing litigation, either party may seek various interim orders, including injunctive relief. A Mareva type injunction is not easily obtained but it prevents the defendant from dissipating assets.

Any such order is obviously issued by a judge who has considered it on its merits, so describing it as arbitrary is a strange choice. It could also have been negotiated by the parties.

Why in particular do you consider it arbitrary in this instance?

 

[human]

Even Barry's own business was a tough go. It took ingenuity and perseverance to get it going and keep it going, etc.. something that Lou Winter's company didn't have after his death. The company was withering without him at the helm and so the trustees were cutting their losses by putting the business up for sale. Imagine if Barry hadn't been the highest bidder and some other businessman/business bought it instead? The proceeds of said sale would've gone to the estate/trust fund for the kids, and that is it. Mind you, back then, that was a lot of money that with some good investment strategy would've done well for those orphan children. It's just never enough for some people, is it?

what happened to the money from the sale of the business?

 

[human]

No, and nobody is suggesting that.

At any time after commencing litigation, either party may seek various interim orders, including injunctive relief. A Mareva type injunction is not easily obtained but it prevents the defendant from dissipating assets.

Any such order is obviously issued by a judge who has considered it on its merits, so describing it as arbitrary is a strange choice. It could also have been negotiated by the parties.

Why in particular do you consider it arbitrary in this instance?

is there such an order?