IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

[IceIce9]

Wonder if this account on Etsy is the mother’s. Seems to have some age as the 1st liked product shop is no longer open and seems to have closed in 2018. Meaning if someone created it recently they would of not been able to like that product as it wouldn’t of been available anymore. Also theres a crocheted police mans hat liked. However the reason I bring it up is because most recent likes consist of onesies that say “handpicked by my sister in heaven” and also a “big brother” shirt. Makes me wonder if they could possibly be expecting new baby.

If so, I hope that SA is not going to be a caregiverof the new baby.

 

[they'll get you]

Caregivers who leave kids in hot cars, or fail to buckle their kids into car seats don’t intentionally snuff out their children’s lives either, but the result is still the same. A dead child, due to their negligence, and they need to be held responsible.

The accident wouldn’t have happened if the windows didn’t open.

Thats my predicted angle that will win them BIG $$$

Big corporations to protect stupid against stupid.

 

[SuziQ]

That's your opinion and I disagree. I've watched the video and it is blurry and shows nothing of intent. Mr. Anello has been charged with a misdemeanor. He didn't intentionally snuff out any child's life.

JMO

IMO, the video shows what someone would do if they wanted to drop a baby accidentally on purpose.

BUT....because of this, I tried to work out how this could be on purpose. So far I am not feeling this. What it appears to me, that while SA has some intelligence, to do the job he does, I think he is one big dolt. That his behavior after is selfish and self preservation. I have no sympathy for him. None. I hope he recieves the harshest penalty allowed. I also hope that the pleas bargain was just a rumor started by his attorney.

As far as the parents go. I am not a fan. But I realize that denial is a very self serving and protective emotion. I am Thankful that I am not in their shoes.

 

[al66pine]

Honoring Chloe & "Window Safety" Education?

....they could have honored her by having SA accept responsibility and educate others about the danger of windows and window safety. This would have honored Chloe and even saved lives. Suing the cruise line saves no lives (since no toddlers have gone out of windows on cruise ships before) ....

@Chikkamma sbm bbm
1) Parents asking G'pa SA accept responsibility for Chloe's death? Absolutely agree 100%.

2) Asking G'pa SA to educate about the "danger of windows & window safety"? What would he say? “Whenever you stand beside a window, stick your head out, and look down, don't be a criminally negligent nitwit like me and suspend a child outside the window in midair for no logical reason, then drop her, causing her death. And suspending a child in mid-air outside a window without looking down may not be a good idea either.” *

Sorry, but the window itself presented no danger which contributed to Chloe's death. Not until G'pa stuck his head & shoulders thru it, then moments later suspended Chloe her over 115** foot drop.

As posted before, G'pa's action could have caused same result - death- at places w no windows, like home deck, hotel balcony, office building atrium, or shopping mall. Or even with shorter drops, if not death, serious bodily injury, like paralysis, traumatic brain injury, quadriplegia, or ruptured liver, kidney. Or maybe 'just' broken bones.

If her parents want G'pa to "educate others" to prevent deaths like Chloe's, he should focus on not picking up & suspending children in mid-air for no logical reason.
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* My apologies if calling him a 'nitwit' offends, but it's the nicest name that comes to mind.
* * 115 ft drop as PR prosecutor/DoJ stated ~July 9, or 150 ft., as commonly reported since.

 

[SuziQ]

That's your opinion and I disagree. I've watched the video and it is blurry and shows nothing of intent. Mr. Anello has been charged with a misdemeanor. He didn't intentionally snuff out any child's life.

JMO

IMO, the video shows what someone would do if they wanted to drop a baby accidentally on purpose.

BUT....because of this, I tried to work out how this could be on purpose. So far I am not feeling this. What it appears to me, that while SA has some intelligence, to do the job he does, I think he is one big dolt. That his behavior after is selfish and self preservation. I have no sympathy for him. None. I hope he recieves the harshest penalty allowed. I also hope that the pleas bargain was just a rumor started by his attorney.

As far as the parents go. I am not a fan. But I realize that denial is a very self serving and protective emotion. I am Thankful that I am not in their shoes.

 

[IceIce9]

The accident wouldn’t have happened if the windows didn’t open.

Thats my predicted angle that will win them BIG $$$

Big corporations to protect stupid against stupid.

The world is full of open windows that babies can bc dropped from. Not to mention balconies, bridges, etc. I definitely understand your point.

 

[they'll get you]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=754098988428111

This is the one I think. It's really clear on my phone, I do recall it was discussed earlier in the last thread, and some kind soul even translated for us.

It wasn’t the only window open.

At the very end when a woman looks out an open window to see.

 

[Chikkamma]

Honoring Chloe & "Window Safety" Education?
@Chikkamma View attachment 221971 sbm bbm
1) Parents asking G'pa SA accept responsibility for Chloe's death? Absolutely agree 100%.

2) Asking G'pa SA to educate about the "danger of windows & window safety"? What would he say? “Whenever you stand beside a window, stick your head out, and look down, don't be a criminally negligent nitwit like me and suspend a child outside the window in midair for no logical reason, then drop her, causing her death. And suspending a child in mid-air outside a window without looking down may not be a good idea either.” *

Sorry, but the window itself presented no danger which contributed to Chloe's death. Not until G'pa stuck his head & shoulders thru it, then moments later suspended Chloe her over 115** foot drop.

As posted before, G'pa's action could have caused same result - death- at places w no windows, like home deck, hotel balcony, office building atrium, or shopping mall. Or even with shorter drops, if not death, serious bodily injury, like paralysis, traumatic brain injury, quadriplegia, or ruptured liver, kidney. Or maybe 'just' broken bones.

If her parents want G'pa to "educate others" to prevent deaths like Chloe's, he should focus on not picking up & suspending children in mid-air for no logical reason.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* My apologies if calling him a 'nitwit' offends, but it's the nicest name that comes to mind.
* * 115 ft drop as PR prosecutor/DoJ stated ~July 9, or 150 ft., as commonly reported since.

Agree with you completely. The window had adequate safety measures in place and presented no danger. I was just giving an example of how the family could have harnessed their energy towards more positive things rather than suing RCCL.

 

[Kakidoll]

You have no idea how hot that ship would be if those windows DIDN"T open. Its like a sauna.

 

[they'll get you]

Agree with you completely. The window had adequate safety measures in place and presented no danger. I was just giving an example of how the family could have harnessed their energy towards more positive things rather than suing RCCL.

Winkleman in damage control.

When SA was charged Winkleman’s suit weakened.

 

[Arkay]

The accident wouldn’t have happened if the windows didn’t open.

Thats my predicted angle that will win them BIG $$$

Big corporations to protect stupid against stupid.

I see your point that this is the lawyer's central idea. Of course, we can keep excavating backwards...the accident wouldn't have happened if they hadn't gone on the cruise....there really is nothing else, IMO, than if the grandfather hadn't decided that some fun horseplay would be to hang a likely twisty, turny toddler out of a window. A window that he KNEW was OPEN because he had already thrust his entire upper body through it.

 

[SouthAussie]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=754098988428111

This is the one I think. It's really clear on my phone, I do recall it was discussed earlier in the last thread, and some kind soul even translated for us.

Thank you. With our huge time difference, I just saw your post. And I do recall the translations.

 

[they'll get you]

Winkleman, ‘You lied!’

SA,

 

[SouthAussie]

Winkleman, ‘You lied!’

SA,
View attachment 221979

Ortiz has at least kept his mouth closed, pretty much. Just a couple of the usual defense attorney comments.
I think Ortiz knows what he's up against. Damning video coverage, and a population (jury) who revere their children.

I sometimes wonder what Ortiz thinks of the press circuit and Winkleman's statements. If they are going to harm the defense strategy. Ortiz might have preferred that everyone just was quiet, and let him work out the best way to get the best result for his client.

 

[MsMarple]

From December 11:
Surveillance video of the incident exists, and the family waited until they saw it to file the lawsuit. They aren’t showing the video to the public, saying they don’t want the last seconds of their daughter’s life to become scrutinized on the internet. They’re also trying to prevent Chloe’s older brother from seeing it.
Family files lawsuit against Royal Caribbean over Indiana toddler’s fatal plunge on cruise ship
BBM. I don't know how I missed this. And I don't understand what in the video led them to go ahead and file the lawsuit. I assume they saw a clearer version than we have.

 

[SouthAussie]

From December 11:
Surveillance video of the incident exists, and the family waited until they saw it to file the lawsuit. They aren’t showing the video to the public, saying they don’t want the last seconds of their daughter’s life to become scrutinized on the internet. They’re also trying to prevent Chloe’s older brother from seeing it.
Family files lawsuit against Royal Caribbean over Indiana toddler’s fatal plunge on cruise ship
BBM. I don't know how I missed this. And I don't understand what in the video led them to go ahead and file the lawsuit. I assume they saw a clearer version than we have.

My personal opinion is that the view from behind could be taken as Ortiz claims "the video supports the story" (SA stood, then sat, Chloe on the guardrail).

It is the side view that blows that away for me. When I can actually see SA's belly up against the guardrail and him lifting Chloe way past that.

Is it possible that Winkleman and family only saw the rear view video? Or hoped they could get the side view video thrown out (for reasons that I can't imagine)?

 

[Area52]

I agree with you. I've stayed away from this thread because of the cruel comments being made about the parents being greedy and that's why they filed the lawsuit. The parents are victims. This is a family very clearly in despair and Puerto Rico prosecutors are playing a very cruel game of "piling on."

Similar comments were made about Lane Grave's parents when he was killed by an alligator at Disney World. That they should have known there were very real alligators lurking in the lagoon in a park where everything else is pure fantasy. There is a now wall around that lagoon and a memorial to the child that is a sculpture of a lighthouse. The same logo is for the Lane Thomas Foundation. The Foundation is doing wonderful work providing financial support to parents of hospitalized children in need of life-saving organ transplants.

The wait of six months before filing misdemeanor charges is an indication to me that Puerto Rico's prosecutors have a political agenda. Shortly after Chloe's death there were massive protests in San Juan over corrupt government officials. The situation was dangerous and the cruise lines decided not to dock there. That cost San Juan a lot of tourism dollars. What better way to retaliate against the cruise line than exploit a grieving family that were their guests and create international publicity over an accidental death.

I think the wrongful death lawsuit will be settled very quickly and quietly and the result will be windows that can not be opened in areas where children might be. I also believe the parents will do something positive to ensure the legacy of their beautiful Chloe lives on.

JMO
Disney World unveils lighthouse sculpture to honor boy killed by alligator

Puerto Rico protests: Royal Caribbean, MSC Cruises cancel stops

Windows that cannot be open? How about responsible adults not putting a baby on a hand rail! There are no winners in this, but the only reason that child is dead is because she was placed in a WINDOW, 11 stories above the dock by a person who was not smart enough to realize the consequences of his actions. She would have been safer if she was alone, as THE WINDOWS WERE TOO HIGH TO HAVE BEEN ACCESSED BY A CHILD, never mind a baby! It is no one else's fault but his. MOO. I do not believe it was intentional, but he alone is responsible for the outcome. What a sad, avoidable tragedy.

 

[MsMarple]

My personal opinion is that the view from behind could be taken as Ortiz claims "the video supports the story" (SA stood, then sat, Chloe on the guardrail).

It is the side view that blows that away for me. When I can actually see SA's belly up against the guardrail and him lifting Chloe way past that.

Is it possible that Winkleman and family only saw the rear view video? Or hoped they could get the side view video thrown out (for reasons that I can't imagine)?

Who knows! I've always thought SA put Chloe on the railing and not the actual windowsill and the videos haven't changed it for me. For one thing I think SA lifted Chloe up so high was because he needed to get her legs over the rail in order to sit her down on it. That's concerning if true since it implies that Chloe wasn't comfortable enough to lift her legs up as many toddlers do when you're trying to sit them on something.

And I know different angles can skew the view a little. But... it really looks like SA leaned way forward in both views. Close enough to either put his head out the window or at least put it mere inches from the opening. And if he couldn't discern an open window at that point then he's afflicted with something way worse than color blindness IMO.

To repeat a prior thought: If the window had been closed and the same accident happened, meaning Chloe slipped from SA's grip, then her poor head would have smashed into the glass. Then she might have fallen to the floor. Tell me that isn't a serious event. So IMO SA was reckless from the get go, open window or not. MOO.

 

[al66pine]

What the Videos Show. Evidence of Intent to Harm?

That's your opinion and I disagree. I've watched the video and it is blurry and shows nothing of intent. Mr. Anello has been charged with a misdemeanor. He didn't intentionally snuff out any child's life.
JMO

@My Belle As there are numerous news clips w different parts & lengths of videos, would you mind sharing link to the video you watched? It would be helpful to know if we are watching the same parts of the videos in forming our opinions.
If someone in such situation intended to harm a toddler or snuff out a toddler's life, what evidence of that could be seen in a videos? Thx in adv.

 

[SouthAussie]

Who knows! I've always thought SA put Chloe on the railing and not the actual windowsill and the videos haven't changed it for me. For one thing I think SA lifted Chloe up so high was because he needed to get her legs over the rail in order to sit her down on it. That's concerning if true since it implies that Chloe wasn't comfortable enough to lift her legs up as many toddlers do when you're trying to sit them on something.

And I know different angles can skew the view a little. But... it really looks like SA leaned way forward in both views. Close enough to either put his head out the window or at least put it mere inches from the opening. And if he couldn't discern an open window at that point then he's afflicted with something way worse than color blindness IMO.

To repeat a prior thought: If the window had been closed and the same accident happened, meaning Chloe slipped from SA's grip, then her poor head would have smashed into the glass. Then she might have fallen to the floor. Tell me that isn't a serious event. So IMO SA was reckless from the get go, open window or not. MOO.

I would imagine that, for the court case, the prosecutor will have all the distances measured out.

"Here is SA looking out the window, a man of his height and stature's head would be here when bent forward at that degree"
"Here is SA holding Chloe, a man of his height and stature's head is now here"
"Here we see his arms extended, which will put Chloe here" etc etc etc

I don't think they will leave it as a guessing game, or a perspective opinion. I think they will pin it down with measurements and diagrams.