Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #2

[Garyb]

Just thinking back about Marions passport not being used again to leave the country. Wasnt the wording from the police something like" THAT PASSPORT didnt leave the country and expired in 2007" they are not saying she didnt leave the country i.e maybe she changed her name again and got a new passport or got one from another country.

 

[Mjjj14]

Just thinking back about Marions passport not being used again to leave the country. Wasnt the wording from the police something like" THAT PASSPORT didnt leave the country and expired in 2007" they are not saying she didnt leave the country i.e maybe she changed her name again and got a new passport or got one from another country.

I’m pretty sure they’ve said that no further passports were issued to her in that name or any other name in Australia. So I’m guessing the only option for her to leave the country would be leaving illegally (don’t know how she would’ve been able to do this) or been given another passport from some other country.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The passport number on the passenger flight card is in much bigger print and looks different than the other writing. The tick in the marital status box is also much bigger. I was thinking that maybe when the flight attendant collected the passenger card from Marion these two fields were blank and the attendant asked Marion for the information and filled it in as Marion gave the answers.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

It’s been so long since I’ve commented on this forum but I’m all caught up now!

Here’s my current thoughts-

Wow! It does seem likely that Marion met the Florabella she lived near as a child. That seems the most likely place she got the name from tbh! Great job tracking that down!

I want to preface my next statement by saying that I feel for sally and I want nothing more than for her to get answers. There’s been at least one instance where sally and/or representatives of hers have said that certain things have been fact and then they’ve turned out not to be fact, such as the Wagga teachers college stuff. Given that there’s no concrete evidence saying that phone call a) took place on the first and b) was made from Tunbridge Wells, I think there is a big possibility the date is incorrect. I can barely remember what I did last month, let alone what I was doing in August 1997 so I’m in no way blaming sally if she did make a mistake in remembering the date of the call or which bank she visited or where her mum went to college.
If the handwriting was in fact hers, then it was her on the plane. The call must have taken place on a different date or at the very least from a different location.

Next thing I wanted to say was that I agree with everyone who is outraged about the treatment of Fernand. Yikes. The ball was certainly dropped with him. Also I have said this before but it’s completely impossible that it was him that placed the ad. He just couldn’t have done it because of what police confirmed re no Remakels entering or leaving the country with reference to the 1990 date. It’s MUCH more likely that some catfish has used the name of a famous football player to try and pick up chicks! Why is there not more investigation being done into the art centre or the pilot or the dentist? Why are they so obsessed with Fernand? Is it because the conflict in the podcast makes for good listening?

Now, I have to confess I had to turn conversations 17 off because it made me really angry! I will admit I’m biased because I work within the legal industry in Australia (not affiliated with NCAT at all I don’t work in that field). Bryan sounded so self entitled raving on about how it’s not fair they haven’t got an NCAT decision yet and about how they’re waiting for it. Guess what Bryan? There’s about 6363726263 other people waiting for court/tribunal decisions too, you’re a number in a queue and just because this case is affiliated with a media organisation doesn’t give them the right to queue jump or expect special treatment. It really irritates me. You’ll get a decision when one is available, yes the legal system is slow, that’s just the way it is, there’s not enough resources allocated to it to make it go faster unfortunately. In my jurisdiction, it’s not uncommon to be waiting in excess of 6 months for a decision, in fact it’s pretty standard. Yes that sucks, but it is what it is.

Also, it wasn’t possible for her to be married in the UK but what about in another European country such as Luxembourg? I’ve tried to look into the marriage requirements before but it’s pretty hard to find info from back in that time period. There’s no reason to suggest she didn’t travel in Europe from the UK. If she didn’t get married legally, due to visa/other restrictions, maybe she had some sort of commitment ceremony and from that she considered herself married? I have family members who consider themselves married, despite not having a legal ceremony and only a commitment ceremony.

Could she have returned to Australia to apply for some sort of alternate visa? There are visas that you need to be in Australia to apply for right?

My theory at the moment is that she was having some sort of mental health issue that caused her to do some strange things and stage this disappearance.

Wow.. You're good.!lol. A lot of thought and good ideas for someone who has since been catching up.

As for florabella I think it is likely she knew this woman and maybe got the name from her. Maybe... I think any link to her ends there thiugh in terms of her disappearance and there is a chance she is no longer alive.

I think either Sally made a mistake with the telephone call time or Marion was not in Tunbridge Wells, but perhaps at the airport. I can think of no other explanation if it was in fact her on the flight back.

I totally agree with the fernand thing. No remakel could leave since 1997 without it being documented. F remakel is clearly in Luxembourg cos that is where they found him! for him to have met Marion previously he would have had to be travelling under a different name but using his real one in the ad. Or what I tbink is more likely is the catfish idea.. She could have been told by him he was a footballer, fell for it and changed her name to it. Who knows....the commitment ceremony is one idea.

And mental health... You hit the nail on the head. Handwriting experts, associations, psychics even aplenty.... Maybe it was out of Marion's character to do what she did. But they said she did things very fast, hastily, some have said she didn't seem herself before she left... So why not bring in a psychologist, experts of varying mental health conditions.. who would easily be able to give their opinion on Marion's behaviour before her disappearance. But no.. Wouldn't fit the comfortable narrative they have. She could have had a breakdown which lead to her just taking off and changing her name in space of a few months. Disassociation.. A variety of onset conditions that could lead her to doing something out of character. She went to the Dr 3 times before leaving.. How do we know this was not for mental health reasons or to be prescribed medication.? She could have been diagnosed with anything from bipolar disorder to any number of things or be suffering it without a diagnosis.. No Dr who had diagnosed her would be able to divulge that unless that had been considered and the police started to look into requesting documents that were health related. But this is one aspect which has not been mentioned... but mental health is a huge thing these days I am very surprised if your leaving no stone unturned you just decide it was not in her nature, without considering there was something else going on which could have changed her attitude and behaviour.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Just occurred to me that one of the ways in which Marion could have exited the UK to another country without any record on her passport, would have been by sea. Obviously airports still require passports for security, but the UK is part of the Schengen area, which refers to the free movement of people, goods and labour within the EU. It was born out of Maastricht Treaty, which was ratified in 1993. So, within the month Marion was abroad she could potentially have travelled elsewhere within the Schengen region without needing her passport. Of course travel times by sea for places like germany can be looked into.

She obviously came back via the UK, but again of this was by ferry no need for a passport. Once on mainland Europe the countries within schengen would likely require possession of some form of I. D but this would not necessarily be asked for, more as recommended to have incase you happened to be asked to produce it maybe as a spot check - that is my understanding of the schengen rules.. Maybe someone can read more clearly between the lines than I can as to what the specific rules were in 1997, because again the rules seem to have some exceptions and to change slightly over time... The main thing is, not impossible for her to have travelled beyond the UK without using her passport and to my knowledge both Germany and Luxembourg are Schengen countries, as well as France.

As far as Hong Kong goes I am just a little confused.. As far as I can see she stopped over in Hong Kong for no more than a night perhaps, on her flight back. What about her outbound flight is there a departure card? Do we have evidence she travelled to the UK over a period of days rather than hours? When was she due to touch down in the UK? Because this is the only way I can see she could have been in Hong Kong long enough to concieveably go and get married. So I am not saying there is no connection to the pilot or to the possibility it was where she wed, but as far as we know right now it was a stopover for a matter of hours and no more..or maybe someone can tell me if I have missed something.

 

[Mjjj14]

Just occurred to me that one of the ways in which Marion could have exited the UK to another country without any record on her passport, would have been by sea. Obviously airports still require passports for security, but the UK is part of the Schengen area, which refers to the free movement of people, goods and labour within the EU. It was born out of Maastricht Treaty, which was ratified in 1993. So, within the month Marion was abroad she could potentially have travelled elsewhere within the Schengen region without needing her passport. Of course travel times by sea for places like germany can be looked into.

She obviously came back via the UK, but again of this was by ferry no need for a passport. Once on mainland Europe the countries within schengen would likely require possession of some form of I. D but this would not necessarily be asked for, more as recommended to have incase you happened to be asked to produce it maybe as a spot check - that is my understanding of the schengen rules.. Maybe someone can read more clearly between the lines than I can as to what the specific rules were in 1997, because again the rules seem to have some exceptions and to change slightly over time... The main thing is, not impossible for her to have travelled beyond the UK without using her passport and to my knowledge both Germany and Luxembourg are Schengen countries, as well as France.

As far as Hong Kong goes I am just a little confused.. As far as I can see she stopped over in Hong Kong for no more than a night perhaps, on her flight back. What about her outbound flight is there a departure card? Do we have evidence she travelled to the UK over a period of days rather than hours? When was she due to touch down in the UK? Because this is the only way I can see she could have been in Hong Kong long enough to concieveably go and get married. So I am not saying there is no connection to the pilot or to the possibility it was where she wed, but as far as we know right now it was a stopover for a matter of hours and no more..or maybe someone can tell me if I have missed something.

Ah! Yes! This is really important in my opinion.

Ok so, I am currently travelling around Europe. I flew into Germany and obviously showed my Australian passport there but from there I’ve been catching trains between countries in the Schengen region and whilst train officials have seen my passport nobody has stamped it or anything, they’ve just been checking to see if I have one!

You would probably know more than me about this Sophie because you’re in the UK, but last time I went by train from the UK to France, nobody stamped my passport either (from memory).

I think it’s entirely possible she left the UK. She had quite a bit of time to do so. Whether or not laws in any European country allowed her to marry or not is a harder question to answer because without us having a guess at which country’s laws to look into, we are just stabbing in the dark!

 

[sunnynz]

As far as Hong Kong goes I am just a little confused.. As far as I can see she stopped over in Hong Kong for no more than a night perhaps, on her flight back. What about her outbound flight is there a departure card? Do we have evidence she travelled to the UK over a period of days rather than hours? When was she due to touch down in the UK? Because this is the only way I can see she could have been in Hong Kong long enough to concieveably go and get married. So I am not saying there is no connection to the pilot or to the possibility it was where she wed, but as far as we know right now it was a stopover for a matter of hours and no more..or maybe someone can tell me if I have missed something.

because we don’t have proof that Marion was in the UK (and therefore not in HK) any longer than to allow her to send the postcards back right? I’m not saying she definitely spent a long time in HK and got married there, but at this point what hard facts do we have to say that she didn’t?

 

[Mjjj14]

because we don’t have proof that Marion was in the UK (and therefore not in HK) any longer than to allow her to send the postcards back right? I’m not saying she definitely spent a long time in HK and got married there, but at this point what hard facts do we have to say that she didn’t?

Hard facts are few and far between in this case!! That’s for sure!

 

[Meligator]

The passport number on the passenger flight card is in much bigger print and looks different than the other writing. The tick in the marital status box is also much bigger. I was thinking that maybe when the flight attendant collected the passenger card from Marion these two fields were blank and the attendant asked Marion for the information and filled it in as Marion gave the answers.

Definitely passport number is written in different handwriting. Another possible (benign) explanation is that she could have been traveling with someone else, who happened to be holding both passports during the flight. She could have passed it across the aisle (for example), for someone to fill in that info. It's just a thought because its something I would likely do when traveling with my husband (he likes to keep passports together to verify they are all accounted for). In a more nefarious situation, however, may suggest someone else was controlling access to her passport.

 

[Meligator]

I'm curious about the timeline of her return trip and last phone call to Sally. Do we know the date/time she would have been on a layover -- and does that align with the time she talked with Sally? Not being in UK during the phone call may explain why Marion didn't want to give Sally the number to her payphone. I've also previously wondered if Marion's "until I run out of coins," strategy was an excuse should she need to hang up abruptly --- like if she wanted to hide the fact she was calling her daughter from someone else (i.e., travel partner).

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yes, I agree with other posters here, don't think that's Frau Remakel at all ... to sign your signature as Mrs Remakel would be a bit odd on an official document too .... looks like just an F and an a, first and last letter of first name Florabella maybe - not much room there so could have abbreviated it, but no, not Frau ... just my thoughts.

 

[Meligator]

because we don’t have proof that Marion was in the UK (and therefore not in HK) any longer than to allow her to send the postcards back right? I’m not saying she definitely spent a long time in HK and got married there, but at this point what hard facts do we have to say that she didn’t?

The stationary used to write one of the letters to Sally is from Hotel Nikka Narita, which would be a hotel near Tokyo (not Hong Kong). I believe in one communication (will have to look for details) that on the trip over, Marion referenced being in the east longer than she anticipated.

 

[Meligator]

Yes, I agree with other posters here, don't think that's Frau Remakel at all ... to sign your signature as Mrs Remakel would be a bit odd on an official document too .... looks like just an F and an a, first and last letter of first name Florabella maybe - not much room there so could have abbreviated it, but no, not Frau ... just my thoughts.
View attachment 221975

I'm not handwriting expert, but the cursive signature does resemble the cursive on letters to Sally. I think it could be an attempt at "Flora Remakel," with just a very low & unpronounced L in flora. Signatures are often written in a less than clearly legible manner. Maybe this is an attempt to create a more authentic looking signature for a name she had rarely used.

 

[Mjjj14]

I'm not handwriting expert, but the cursive signature does resemble the cursive on letters to Sally. I think it could be an attempt at "Flora Remakel," with just a very low & unpronounced L in flora. Signatures are often written in a less than clearly legible manner. Maybe this is an attempt to create a more authentic looking signature for a name she had rarely used.

I agree with this, to me it looks nothing like frau and more like cursive flora, a cursive f m Remakel or a first attempt at a new signature!

 

[Mjjj14]

In fact, I disagree with the podcast entirely! To me this document clears up more questions than it raises. We now know for almost certain, it was her on that plane! Whether there was someone else with her or not was something we have always wondered anyway.

 

[Mjjj14]

She went to the Dr 3 times before leaving.. How do we know this was not for mental health reasons or to be prescribed medication.? She could have been diagnosed with anything from bipolar disorder to any number of things or be suffering it without a diagnosis.. No Dr who had diagnosed her would be able to divulge that unless that had been considered and the police started to look into requesting documents that were health related. But this is one aspect which has not been mentioned... but mental health is a huge thing these days I am very surprised if your leaving no stone unturned you just decide it was not in her nature, without considering there was something else going on which could have changed her attitude and behaviour.

The worst bit about this doctor stuff is that it’s highly unlikely any records would still be available at all, even if the coroner requested them. If they’re destroyed (due to the legal time limit passing to retain documents) there’s really not much that can be done. I hope they’ve been retained by some miracle but I doubt it!

 

[Garyb]

Wow.. You're good.!lol. A lot of thought and good ideas for someone who has since been catching up.

As for florabella I think it is likely she knew this woman and maybe got the name from her. Maybe... I think any link to her ends there thiugh in terms of her disappearance and there is a chance she is no longer alive.

I think either Sally made a mistake with the telephone call time or Marion was not in Tunbridge Wells, but perhaps at the airport. I can think of no other explanation if it was in fact her on the flight back.

I totally agree with the fernand thing. No remakel could leave since 1997 without it being documented. F remakel is clearly in Luxembourg cos that is where they found him! for him to have met Marion previously he would have had to be travelling under a different name but using his real one in the ad. Or what I tbink is more likely is the catfish idea.. She could have been told by him he was a footballer, fell for it and changed her name to it. Who knows....the commitment ceremony is one idea.

And mental health... You hit the nail on the head. Handwriting experts, associations, psychics even aplenty.... Maybe it was out of Marion's character to do what she did. But they said she did things very fast, hastily, some have said she didn't seem herself before she left... So why not bring in a psychologist, experts of varying mental health conditions.. who would easily be able to give their opinion on Marion's behaviour before her disappearance. But no.. Wouldn't fit the comfortable narrative they have. She could have had a breakdown which lead to her just taking off and changing her name in space of a few months. Disassociation.. A variety of onset conditions that could lead her to doing something out of character. She went to the Dr 3 times before leaving.. How do we know this was not for mental health reasons or to be prescribed medication.? She could have been diagnosed with anything from bipolar disorder to any number of things or be suffering it without a diagnosis.. No Dr who had diagnosed her would be able to divulge that unless that had been considered and the police started to look into requesting documents that were health related. But this is one aspect which has not been mentioned... but mental health is a huge thing these days I am very surprised if your leaving no stone unturned you just decide it was not in her nature, without considering there was something else going on which could have changed her attitude and behaviour.

There is a post on Reddit about this they talk about borderline personality disorder. Describes Marion before she left perfectly.
Apparently people with this condition have a much higher suicide rate than normal.

 

[Mel 1303]

I cant find a copy of the form you had to fill out in 1997 to change your name in Queensland, but the current form is available on line.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...18-years.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3dGxsTQHBVi_CJQICGj6fV

Garry Sheehan had a copy of the change of name form- I wonder what Marion put in as the reason for wanting to change her name, and if that played part in his determination that Marion was not missing?

 

[Mjjj14]

There is a post on Reddit about this they talk about borderline personality disorder. Describes Marion before she left perfectly.
Apparently people with this condition have a much higher suicide rate than normal.

This brings me back again to Cornelia Rau and the fact she did some strange things due to a mental illness (allegedly brought on by cult related activity). She even came to possess a Norwegian persons passport.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

because we don’t have proof that Marion was in the UK (and therefore not in HK) any longer than to allow her to send the postcards back right? I’m not saying she definitely spent a long time in HK and got married there, but at this point what hard facts do we have to say that she didn’t?

Well you are actually correct. The re entry card unfortunately now I have looked does not include the UK it is Hong Kong only. So I thought it was showing that as the stopover point and maybe the starting point was just cut off. But if she did come from UK this card relates to one leg of the journey and not the entire thing. So yes now I looked again we can't be sure she even went to the UK. So should there not be a part that shows details of her entry into Hong Kong from the UK if she was there? It is all so confusing.

What about passenger card for her flight out from Australia? Are these cards not used for all journeys at that time? So still no solid proof she was there... Apart from perhaps her untouched monies from the barclays bank, well the money that was left anyway. It seems it was touched, but the money we have proof was sent over.. So I would assume she was in fact there herself, but again... Can't assume a thing.