UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[Bit of hope]

Back to our UID, we have to find a needle in a haystack!
Not only unreported/lost/destroyed MP reports, but also, victims of baby trafficking.
I do not even know where to start!

I don't say it's totally of base, the illegal adoption, baby traficking, but I think this lady just went to the UK (if she isn't from there) to work and met a terrible faith. Europeans are mixed in always, I think I will not be surprised when my DNA test comes back that I have also Middle-East blood and gypsy blood.

 

[Giuc0]

I didn't even think you thought it was off base actually.
I said that we have to search both angles at the same time.

I was just saying that it's trying to find a needle in a haystack, therefore, I do not even know where to start my research.

So, I came up with an idea.
One of us searches the angle of unreported missing persons while the other searches through the angle of illegal adoptions.

If one single person searches for both, it would be way too much.
Only thinking about searching both angles by myself alone gives me a terrible headache!

 

[Bit of hope]

I didn't even think you thought it was off base actually.
I said that we have to search both angles at the same time.

I was just saying that it's trying to find a needle in a haystack, therefore, I do not even know where to start my research.

So, I came up with an idea.
One of us searches the angle of unreported missing persons while the other searches through the angle of illegal adoptions.

If one single person searches for both, it would be way too much.
Only thinking about searching both angles by myself alone gives me a terrible headache!

I already have a headache....I really would prefer not to go searching for a needle in a haystack at all. Sorry....Unreported missing would mean nowhere registered or no longer registered, declared dead, going on unreliable Facebook sites or looking for non existing (for many countries there are no accurate missing persons sites at all) ...and we are also talking about the 70's....

 

[Giuc0]

You know what ?
There is a charity in UK for families of missing persons.
In those days, police easily refused to take MP reports for adults.
Now, it's handled differently.
The charity is called Home and is listed in Doe Network Resources page Resources


In such case, this charity might tell you about families whom tried to report a missing person but the police refused.

You can email them and report their answer here.

I know now that there are reliable charities dedicated to the missing in these countries (India, Tanzania, Nigeria...), but I'm not sure if they have cases dating back to the '70s. That's the issue :-/


Meanwhile, I search the angle of illegal adoptions. This one is even more the needle in the haystack because birth certificates and adoption registries were falsified.

If we separate our searches, it'll be more efficient and easier.

 

[Giuc0]

Other point, declared legally dead in absentia is actually a very reliable angle of research.

The UK charity I've point to in my previous message surely knows of charities in these countries. I know that Pink Ladies is a very reliable South African charity: The Pink Ladies Missing Children's Organisation

Also, have a look at Crime Stoppers' "Links" page. It certainly lists a reliable charity dedicated to the missing persons there!

 

[Bit of hope]

Other point, declared legally dead in absentia is actually a very reliable angle of research.

The UK charity I've point to in my previous message surely knows of charities in these countries. I know that Pink Ladies is a very reliable South African charity: The Pink Ladies Missing Children's Organisation

Also, have a look at Crime Stoppers' "Links" page. It certainly lists a reliable charity dedicated to the missing persons there!

I know you are smart and you have a good heart, but I'have my own line of thinking and also scarce energy I want to put into things (or not). This is an interesting case, absolutely, but I don't want to jump into things when it feels at the beginning we are getting nowhere. I don't have the enthousiasme like you have, not the persistence etc. anymore....sorry @Gucio

 

[dotr]

A stretch, FWIW..
This is way out there but if i do not post this now i may not find it again so here goes..
Scrolling through photos of the gangs of Manchester, noticed this pic of a man who reminded me of "Angel" and wondered if they could be related?
TOP Center photo, "Manchester Scuttlers"
Inside the all-female gang led by Diamond Annie armed with a stolen gem knuckleduster who terrorised 1920s Britain every bit as violently as the Peaky Blinders


The Manchester Scuttlers wore scarves in gang coloursCredit: The Gangs of Manchester by Andrew Davies, Milo Books

 

[coffeeandacig]

25 pictures that show brutal reality of poverty in 1960s and 1970s Manchester and Salford

This link was shared earlier in the thread by another WS'er, I believe. It was a series of pictures of the ghettos of Manchester taken by Nick Hedges in a 4 year span during the 1960's and 70's.

In a picture captioned, "A family living in a single room in Moss Side, 1969" there is a woman smoking a cigarette who is undoubtedly wearing a pinafore.


Seems to me pinafores may have been a dime a dozen in those poor neighborhoods.

DNA/Geneology may be the only way to identifier her. Since the number of people living in that kind of poverty would have had shortened life spans, and would no longer be around to ID her.

 

[Keine Engel]

I'm still not sure how they came from "most likely European to possibly from India or the Middle-East"

...My interpretation of it is: she may have come from anywhere....

Ok, silly question.
Could had she been adopted by a UK couple overseas and brought back in UK?
I was thinking about this possibility because of the ethnicities found & the fact that international adoption started in the 50's-60's.

if my hypothesis holds water, it can explain why no DNA match was found in UK !

...I know now that there are reliable charities dedicated to the missing in these countries (India, Tanzania, Nigeria...), but I'm not sure if they have cases dating back to the '70s. That's the issue :-/

...I know that Pink Ladies is a very reliable South African charity: The Pink Ladies Missing Children's Organisation

Also, have a look at Crime Stoppers' "Links" page. It certainly lists a reliable charity dedicated to the missing persons there!

She was Caucasian

The woman was Caucasian and aged between 18 and 35 but it is not known how long her remains were at the site.

The link to Tanzania was due to a family from there contacting Police with reason to believe they may possibly know who she was.

The family are NOT originally from East-Africa.

They don't say where the family originated but I'm assuming they made this point clear for a reason thou.

I also, unfortunately, assume nothing came of this as it was a number of years ago?

ETA: Article was dated November 2012
​

“Some of these families who've contacted us are from foreign countries and we've also made numerous trips to Ireland."

“One family contacted us from Tanzania and we have good reason to believe that this may be the right woman...

Forensics have previously revealed the victim was 'Caucasian' – defined as someone from Europe, west south or mid-Asia.

It is understood the *Tanzanian family are not originally from the east African country.*

Detective Chief Inspector Joanne Rawlinson, leading the probe, said after being contacted by a family in Tanzania, police have 'good reason to believe' their loved one may be the victim.

Following widespread publicity of the case, it is understood families from Texas and Holland have also been spoken to.

ManchesterEveningNews
BBCNews

 

[RobinCAL]

After following the Lady of the Hills case, I do have faith with this one. I hope the questions are answered soon.

 

[Keine Engel]

St. Patrick's Day is much, much less of a party holiday outside North America. At the time of this lady's death pubs in Ireland itself were absolutely forbidden to open on the day...
Also, this lady died during the very worst of the Troubles, when it was not wise to appear overly Irish anywhere in England. I can't see any pub in Manchester openly celebrating St. Patrick's Day in the 70s and 80s.

St. Patrick's Day certainly wasn't anything like the American party type holiday but it was definitely celebrated.

The Irish have observed this day as a religious holiday for over 1,000 years.

On St. Patrick’s Day Irish families would traditionally attend church in the morning and celebrate in the afternoon, people would dance, drink and feast–on the traditional meal of Irish bacon and cabbage...

"After the Second World War they became much more formal, usually based around different Irish societies such as the Dublin society or Mayo society parade."

St Patrick's Day faded in England during the darkest days of the Troubles when there was a nervousness about celebrating Irishness.

Events during the 1970s and 1980s retreated into "semi-private places" like dance halls, bars and churches until things started to change in the 1990s when a cooling in political tensions coincided with a period of popular culture when Irish eyes were definitely smiling.

But Manchester has had a huge Irish population since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, particular the 'Angel Meadows' area

( & the pubs were absolutely open on St. Paddy's Day in England.)

The Irish in Manchester C.1750–1921
​

The Irish presence was particularly strong nearby in the densely populated and deprived areas of Ancoats and Angel Meadow, the latter often referred to as ‘Irish Town’, where by 1851 50.4% of the recorded population were born in Ireland or were the offspring of two Irish-born parents

The Feast of St.Patrick was celebrated by special Masses and parochial entertainments.
The blessing of the shamrock on St.Patrick's Eve was widespread

...the Irish population, from gentle piano recitals to Ancoats' lumpen rowdies and from the total abstainer to those who drank themselves into oblivion on St.Patrick's Night.

When St.Patrick's Mens' Club was opened in 1877 only coffee was served; within three years beer had been introduced.

Similarly, the "traditional meeting place" for the parochial 'Old Boys *advertiser censored*.' during the interwar years was the Kings' Arms on Rochdale Road.

There wasn't the same 'Anti-Irish' public sentiment in Manchester during 'The Troubles'

The Church encouraged the newcomers and their children becoming more Catholic and less Irish. St Patrick’s Day celebrations became less rowdy and nationalistic and more devotional and respectable.

As Busteed writes of the day: “On the public stage events became steadily more structured, elaborate and decorous, an evolution which the Catholic Church warmly endorsed since it dovetailed with its policy of presenting Catholics as sober, upright citizens worthy of equal treatment within the United Kingdom.”

Busteed has long been the foremost authority on the Irish in Manchester.

That the IRA bomb of 1996 failed to arouse anti-Irish sentiment in the city is no surprise: Manchester can be proud of its absence of sectarianism and its history of integration.

BBC
BandOnTheWall
Less Irish-More Catholic

- Quote from book -

The Irish in Manchester: 1750-1921​

by Mervyn Busteed​

​

The Irish for the most part settled in the north of the city, in Angel Meadow where their presence achieved notoriety in the ghetto known as “Little Ireland” just south of the Oxford Road railway station.

The settlement attained international infamy thanks to the writing Friedrich Engels in his landmark *'The Condition of the Working Class in England'*
...documented in grim detail the area’s wretched conditions and the depraved behaviour of its inhabitants.

Add to this the Manchester Courier – yesteryear’s equivalent of the Daily Express – issuing lurid stories about Irish fractiousness and licentiousness, whiskey-drinking and fisticuffs.

Anti-Irish sentiment may have been prolific in print but it never really gained a foothold in everyday life.

​

 

[Keine Engel]

*^ For anyone else who has repeatedly come across numerous quotes, references to Engels book & is therefore also interested in reading it...

The Condition of the Working Class in England​

By Friedrich Engels​

Project Gutenberg eBook

It's also available at Amazon (Kindle version free)

 

[Giuc0]

Caucasian in South Africa is not unheard of.
Source: Ethnic groups in South Africa - Wikipedia
I know, Wikipedia
But ruling out South Africa just because of "Caucasian" is far from wise.

For Tanzania:

Ethnic groupsEdit
mainland - African 99% (of which 95% are Bantu consisting of more than 130 tribes), other 1% (consisting of Asian, European, and Arab); Zanzibar - Arab, African, mixed Arab and African. Around 100,000 people living in Tanzania are from Europe or Asia.

Source: Demographics of Tanzania - Wikipedia
I know, Wikipedia


An extreme minority, but we still can not rule out Eastern Africa because of being Caucasian.
Let alone Southern Africa!

The article Police reconstruct face of woman whose skeleton was found in Manchester 40 years after she was murdered by sex killer | Daily Mail Online states: "She was a modern day size 12 and is most likely European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian sub-continents." RBBM

I'm sorry, but we can not exclude Indian sub-continents, nor East African countries just because of "Caucasian".


From the reconstruction, I can strongly see mixed ethnicity: Caucasian and Indian sub-continents.
Middle East less likely, but Middle East features can sometimes be confused with Indian sub-continent features.


I don't remember, but was there any Parabon analysis?
Because I remember cases where "race" was completely off.
Wondering if it could be the case, because the reconstruction doesn't look like typically Caucasian.

Any recent update about this point?

 

[Giuc0]

Ok, the UK Missing Person Unit states that her ethnicity is unknown : UK Missing Persons Unit

From the reconstruction available on their website, I doubt that she was Caucasian :
http://missingpersons.police.uk/media/case-images/2017/11/14/604.jpg


If you look at her nose, her mouth shape and her overall face shape, she looks more likely of Indian sub-continent than more likely Caucasian.

So, when we look at MP reports, do not discount "Race: Asian" just because the article states "Caucasian" when other stats align.

 

[Giuc0]

Ok, I may have a possible match.
Not much about the circumstances, but age aligns, face shape and nose shape are reasonably close.

Jill Brown, missing since Jan 3rd 1978 at 19yo: Help us find Jill Brown

Side by side.
Your opinion?

 

[Bit of hope]

Ok, I may have a possible match.
Not much about the circumstances, but age aligns, face shape and nose shape are reasonably close.

Jill Brown, missing since Jan 3rd 1978 at 19yo: Help us find Jill Brown

Side by side.
Your opinion?

I don't see a resemblance and I also think that UK police would go through their own database of missing persons, in search for a match for this Jane Doe.

OT if it wasn't for the age difference I thought you found Ellery Doe.....

Look at this woman, she is from the brilliant photo serie Coffeendacing posted above. I think she looks very alike...to much of a coincidence of course...

 

[Giuc0]

Thank you for your feedback BOH!
You taught me something today and I'll go to bed less stupid as we say in France (OT, we even have a website here which is named exactly after this expression. Its goal is teaching new stuff every day. Enough OT, I'll drive WS staff crazy!).

BTW, never assume that the police has checked against a MP, learnt it the hard way :-(
So, better submit a match they've checked than assuming they've checked when it's not the case.

I know that there are more cases of MP in UK on DN, but DN website is inaccessible today. Picture in this message is the error message I get.
Ugh!
Because on DN, you can find UK cases from the 50's. That's why I wanted to have a look on DN :grumpy:


Since DN website is inaccessible today, I'll write to the Missing Person charity today asking them if they have other cases between the '70s and the '80s.

DN have such cases but alas, the website is inaccessible today :headdesk:

If you can access to Doe Network today, feel free to look there as the UK Missing charity has only very few cases from the '70s and '80s.

Maybe you'll be luckier than I am today ! ;-)

 

[Giuc0]

Possible match on DN :
Vidya Devi Ginda
3957DFUK - Vidya Devi Ginda
She went missing in 1973, 31yo when missing so one year older than the estimated range.
Went missing in West Midlands, ca 120km from Manchester (source: www.viamichelin.fr which is a French mapping site. Hope this site is allowed per the TOS). First picture is a mapping screenshot.
I hate being given a distance in miles!

Height & weight given in imperial scale when the UK Missing Person Unit gives the estimated in metric. Ugh! UK Missing Persons Unit
And I'm not in the mood at converting measures right now.

So, not über confident on this one because of measurements mess. Ugh!

What makes me think of this possible match is:
- nose
- the face shape quite similar to reconstruction
- confession from husband not matching forensic
- body never found despite conviction


Thoughts anyone?

 

[Giuc0]

Another match, but I'm even less confident on this one:
Pamela Exall
The Doe Network: Case File 2466DFUK

No vital stats apart that she was 21yo when missing.

Circumstances make it slightly likely, as she was camping and disappeared at night when missing. But I'm not that confident.

On the top of that, she had a white skin while our reconstruction available on the MP Unit website shows features more compatible with Indian sub-continent ethnicity.

The Michelin mapping shows a distance ca 300km, around 3 to 4 hours road by car.


I love when DN vital stats for UK are in imperial when the police Missing Persons Unit gives vital stats in metric /sarcasm


Mods & admin, for European matchings, I found that Michelin website is more accurate than Google maps: ViaMichelin : Itinéraires, Cartes, Info trafic, Météo et Réservation d'hôtels en France et en Europe
And it's more user friendly.

With Google Maps on European itineraries, I got more inaccurate than accurate infos.

If it goes against TOS, tell me and I'll search another mapping site for European matching.
No way I'll use Google Maps for Europe mapping distances! Even if I were paid 150 bn euros, Google maps for distances in Europe is a no, no, no! I'd rather stay at my low income and use a site giving accurate info for European mapping than being paid to use an inaccurate mapping site for European mapping!

For US & Canada, Google Maps is much more accurate.
So, for US & Canada matching, I agree with using Google Maps.
For Europe JDs matching, no way I use Google Maps because of too many inaccuracies found.

@CarlK90245 all my apologies for this OT clarification.
You can punish me like Obelix to the Romans if you feel like it!

 

[Giuc0]

New case on Doe Network: Isabella Skelton
3965DFUK - Isabella Skelton

Age is off by 5 years, and went missing in June 6th 1969.
I hardly see a similarity with the recon.

However, she went missing at Manchester, and she was rumoured that she went to US for work.
She worked for a courrier service. The only drawback is that the time of disappearence is unknown.

Viamichelin was unable to give me a distance without the exact locations, I had to rely on Google :-/

As you can see, the distance is around 3 miles and it takes only around 10mn to get there by car.