OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #53

[Sleuthinsleuther]

But Rita has already confessed she lied about the guardianship papers, and only those documents.

Maybe RN testifies against her family now

 

[Loomis124]

Grandmother charged with forging custody documents in Pike Co. massacre returns to court

 

[Loomis124]

Maybe RN testifies against her family now

It's about time!

 

[Loomis124]

BettyP, apparently RN's last live hearings are not in the Media and Timeline thread. Can anyone please help? I can't find.

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe there were issues with both sets: custody documents with Dailey and Rosenberger, and guardianship documents (forms in Discovery). It's difficult to explain here, but clearly there are 2 sets and their purposes are entirely different. The guardianship papers were to insure SW and BW went to the Guardian named (?) in case of death of JW/HR and GW4 (the murders). After all JW and GW4 could have been killed during the murders, thus the guardianship papers were needed for them, too. It is very clear to me just from reading the documents.

I haven't seen the custody docs, so can't comment. JMO and I'll let the subject rest.

I see that the Indictment #18 only deals with Custody Documents NOT Guardianship Documents.

Why would Jake want Guardianship over Custody? He wouldn't.

The Indictments only mention Custody Documents, no Guardianship mentioned. I am looking at the actual charge, CUSTODY DOCUMENT FRAUD.

But yah, we can agree to disagree and as you say, let it rest. But if others want to weigh in great.
We should all have our own different opinions BUT - think about - and learn from - and respect - other poster's opinions. And I want to do that or ---

I shouldn't be here...My Opinions Only.....

 

[Loomis124]

I see that the Indictment #18 only deals with Custody Documents NOT Guardianship Documents.

Why would Jake want Guardianship over Custody? He wouldn't.

The Indictments only mention Custody Documents, no Guardianship mentioned. I am looking at the actual charge, CUSTODY DOCUMENT FRAUD.

But yah, we can agree to disagree and as you say, let it rest. But if others want to weigh in great.
We should all have our own different opinions BUT - think about - and learn from - and respect - other poster's opinions. And I want to do that or ---

I shouldn't be here...My Opinions Only.....

Lol, CC, it's all good. We're doing our best to understand all the legal jumbo jumbo. We will survive this. IF THE VICTIM'S FAMILIES CAN GET THROUGH IT , WE SURE CAN.

 

[sunshineray]

Opinion only

Wow. I hadn't made a distinction between CUSTODY DOCUMENTS verses GUARDIANSHIP PAPERS (or documents same thing).

I also remember Gerlach using the term guardianship papers (or documents same thing) but I believe he is using this term loosely - as interchangeably with custody documents.

The indictment does not charge the Wagners with fraud related to guardianship documents, it charges them very specifically with Custody Document Fraud.

Difference Between Guardianship and Custody | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Guardianship and child custody are not that very far from each other in terms of legal terminology.
In custody or legal child custody, it’s for a parent-child or adult-minor kind of case. Since minors can’t make right decisions on their own, custody over them is usually given to the mother or father in case of parent separation.

In brief:

• Guardianship can be given to anyone who is incapable mentally or physically on behalf of themselves. Guardianship is limited in its range of decision-making.

• Custody is more on parent-child or adult-minor case.
Custody has the superior authority in decision-making especially on complicated matters.

CC, what I meant by a living will was more in terms of this. If the forged papers to be shown after HR was dead had shown she'd signed over SW to JW it would have raised too many questions from people who knew HR would never sign her daughter away, for it to work for the W's. Instead if the forged papers were more a I want this person to have SW if anything happens to me because they're her father. It wasn't like JW had a legal leg to stand on while HR was alive, (until a paternity test was done) if HR never legally acknowledged him as SW's father on the birth certificate, which I don't believe she had, right?

 

[rsd1200]

CC, what I meant by a living will was more in terms of this. If the forged papers to be shown after HR was dead had shown she'd signed over SW to JW it would have raised too many questions from people who knew HR would never sign her daughter away, for it to work for the W's. Instead if the forged papers were more a I want this person to have SW if anything happens to me because they're her father. It wasn't like JW had a legal leg to stand on while HR was alive, (until a paternity test was done) if HR never legally acknowledged him as SW's father on the birth certificate, which I don't believe she had, right?

I'm not sure if he was on the BC or not, I've not seen one, but, S's last name is Wagner, so that makes me lean toward he was. I remember he and CG were waiting to get dna tests back for K, but there was never mention of a DNA test coming back for S. Being on the b.c. does not give him any custodial rights though unless he went to court to obtain them. It appears that he did not.

Once paternity is established, unmarried fathers have equal standing to seek custody and parenting time, but they must initiate legal action to secure those rights.

Unmarried Parents & Child Custody | Columbus Ohio Lawyer

If the deceased parent is the mother, the surviving father will need to have already established paternity or will need to establish paternity immediately upon the death of the custodial parent. This can be established by way of birth certificates, acknowledgments of paternity, or paternity testing. If paternity establishment is not necessary or it has already been established, the non-custodial parent will usually have a presumption of full parental rights of the children.

the non-custodial parent might be unfit to have custody of the children. This will require a showing in court that the surviving parent cannot meet the best interests of the children. Usually, these procedures are initiated by other relatives, like grandparents, or friends of the family.

Death of a Custodial Parent in Ohio and Ohio Law - Columbus OH Divorce Lawyer - Estate, Probate, Business, Attorney

 

[Fletcher73]

This explains the Cinereskis in a nutshell. JACOB was a preacher in Ohio, but did mission work in AK where he started Resurrection Bay church (and his son, Kelly preaches there currently -he is close friends with Billy and Angela.) Kelly's son, Jake (friends with JW and GW4) also have their own church in AK. JMO

Rev Jacob Cinereski (1940-2003) - Find A Grave...

Caleb Cinereski is pastor of the church in Kenai where the W4 lived. Jake Cinereski is a traveling preacher at this time - he's Kelly's son and Caleb's brother.

...and thank you Loomis - I forgot to say Jacob had passed away and is buried in Ohio.

 

[Cool Cats]

CC, what I meant by a living will was more in terms of this. If the forged papers to be shown after HR was dead had shown she'd signed over SW to JW it would have raised too many questions from people who knew HR would never sign her daughter away, for it to work for the W's. Instead if the forged papers were more a I want this person to have SW if anything happens to me because they're her father. It wasn't like JW had a legal leg to stand on while HR was alive, (until a paternity test was done) if HR never legally acknowledged him as SW's father on the birth certificate, which I don't believe she had, right?

She acknowledged he was the father whether he was on the birth certificate or not. They planned the baby and set a wedding date and lived together and then she gave him 50% custody. I think his problem was getting legal joint custody where he can make the important legal decisions because he was an adult and she was only 15 when HR got pregnant.
I think he was afraid of pushing it in court, for his legal parental rights for joint custody, because she never married him and without marrying him he could be charged.
She messed it up for him by not marrying him. Had she married then divorced him, he would have no problem getting legal joint custody where he could make decisions.

She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.
,,,2 Cents ...

 

[Ann99]

She acknowledged he was the father whether he was on the birth certificate or not. They planned the baby and set a wedding date and lived together and then she gave him 50% custody. I think his problem was getting legal joint custody where he can make the important legal decisions because he was an adult and she was only 15 when HR got pregnant.
I think he was afraid of pushing it in court, for his legal parental rights for joint custody, because she never married him and without marrying him he could be charged.
She messed it up for him by not marrying him. Had she married then divorced him, he would have no problem getting legal joint custody where he could make decisions.

She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.
,,,2 Cents ...

 

[Cool Cats]

Lol, CC, it's all good. We're doing our best to understand all the legal jumbo jumbo. We will survive this. IF THE VICTIM'S FAMILIES CAN GET THROUGH IT , WE SURE CAN.

....I am looking forward to hearing the opening statements in court for the first trial. When the prosecution lays out the entire case to the jury. Then the defense will do likewise.
I do worry about it not being videoed though. Without video of it I would have to get the transcript because I want to know everything that will be said. Wish we knew about cameras in the courtroom.

 

[Ann99]

sorry for odd post.
I’m quoting from Cool Cats post above.

“She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.”


Yes, Wagner had no parental rights!
My thought is that Angela wanted more.
I also think Angela wanted to get out from under
FW control and rule.
Maybe that’s why the trip to Alaska, and the attempted purchase of a farm in Missouri
I believe Angela was the mastermind of this entire plan.

 

[Cool Cats]

sorry for odd post.
I’m quoting from Cool Cats post above.

“She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.”


Yes, Wagner had no parental rights!
My thought is that Angela wanted more.
I also think Angela wanted to get out from under
FW control and rule.
Maybe that’s why the trip to Alaska, and the attempted purchase of a farm in Missouri
I believe Angela was the mastermind of this entire plan.

Interesting perspective.
I never thought about it that way, that Angie wanted her family independent from Fred. She was always tied to her in-laws living in Fred's Bethel Rd. trailer, she and her husband and sons working for Fred, relying on in-law money.
I believe the Peterson road home was really Freds because the records show the boys bought it for $1.00 and that is a token amount when someone is giving you a home you don't have to buy yourself. Plus we know they had been living on disability and food stamps and couldn't afford property.

So then Angie was inquiring about jobs for the boys in AK and it could be that she wanted Billy and the boys and herself to, as you say, get out from under her in-law's feet.

Also I agree with you that Angie could have been a mastermind in all of this because she evidently forged her mom's signature then wanted her mom to lie because she thought it would go bad for them if Rita didn't try to take responsibility for the custody documents.
Angie appears to have been obsessed with custody so I can buy it that she influenced the others towards what she would consider is the solution.

2 Cents

 

[rsd1200]

....I am looking forward to hearing the opening statements in court for the first trial. When the prosecution lays out the entire case to the jury. Then the defense will do likewise.
I do worry about it not being videoed though. Without video of it I would have to get the transcript because I want to know everything that will be said. Wish we knew about cameras in the courtroom.

Me too, if they don't plea out. The dp is on the line. Fella here just plead out to murdering three people, and leaving their bodies in an old mine, one was only 20. He was facing the DP. No trial now, he'll serve 25, and go up for parole. Anything could happen. All the Ws could plea or none or one, etc... If they plea we may not know any more than we do now unless they release everything.

 

[rsd1200]

sorry for odd post.
I’m quoting from Cool Cats post above.

“She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.”


Yes, Wagner had no parental rights!
My thought is that Angela wanted more.
I also think Angela wanted to get out from under
FW control and rule.
Maybe that’s why the trip to Alaska, and the attempted purchase of a farm in Missouri
I believe Angela was the mastermind of this entire plan.

I agree. I think she wanted out from under her MIL and to have her own place, too. Far, far, away. Peterson, I think, was the boys' place, but, the parents moved in, (or AW moved in), to get off of FWF. After AW / G3 moved in, is when I think things went south with the boys' love lives. Just a guess, but it seems both women left around the same time. That house didn't really have the sleeping quarters for six adults and two children, iirc.

 

[Berrybell]

I agree. I think she wanted out from under her MIL and to have her own place, too. Far, far, away. Peterson, I think, was the boys' place, but, the parents moved in, (or AW moved in), to get off of FWF. After AW / G3 moved in, is when I think things went south with the boys' love lives. Just a guess, but it seems both women left around the same time. That house didn't really have the sleeping quarters for six adults and two children, iirc.

That is a very interesting point and one I had not considered or known that G4 & JW girlfriends broke up after they were all under one roof.

 

[Cool Cats]

Me too, if they don't plea out. The dp is on the line. Fella here just plead out to murdering three people, and leaving their bodies in an old mine, one was only 20. He was facing the DP. No trial now, he'll serve 25, and go up for parole. Anything could happen. All the Ws could plea or none or one, etc... If they plea we may not know any more than we do now unless they release everything.

If they all plea then right, we won't learn details or even much about motive. So all 4 would have to plead guilty in exchange for LWOP and then it's done, other than civil suits which they couldn't pay anyway. People often plea right before jury selection when their attorneys tell them the prosecution has a strong case.

The only way I see all 4 pleading is if one turns on the others and agrees to testify against the others. In that case the others wouldn't beat the charges and they would be forced to plea or get death. Just my take on it.

So as long as no one is first to take a plea, they will just keep going toward trial.

 

[Dudly]

She acknowledged he was the father whether he was on the birth certificate or not. They planned the baby and set a wedding date and lived together and then she gave him 50% custody. I think his problem was getting legal joint custody where he can make the important legal decisions because he was an adult and she was only 15 when HR got pregnant.
I think he was afraid of pushing it in court, for his legal parental rights for joint custody, because she never married him and without marrying him he could be charged.
She messed it up for him by not marrying him. Had she married then divorced him, he would have no problem getting legal joint custody where he could make decisions.

She allowed him time with her but he had no legal parental rights to her. He wanted more. For some reason he didn't see the court system working out for him. Or he actually really did want the full custody and not just joint custody.
,,,2 Cents ...

Has anyone besides JW said that S was planned? Was that part of his innocence ploy saying how close that he and HMR were. Has
there ever been any proof that he is on the BC or that a paternity test was done for S? I may have missed it or forgot it if there was...

 

[Cool Cats]

That is a very interesting point and one I had not considered or known that G4 & JW girlfriends broke up after they were all under one roof.

Actually GW4 was married and they divorced.