Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[Sophie-Renee]

Today I'm thinking might be worth looking into the brethren, Exclusive Brethren and the like .... with the brethen connection to TSS at the time it's possible Marion met someone connected to it through LG or other teachers there. Just a thought for today .... h'mm, seems to be associated with Tunbridge Wells, Los Angeles, will have a bit of a look when I've got some time this week.

http://wikipeebia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/J_RuralStudies.pdf

Have yet to look into the L.A and Tunbridge Wells links, but thought the above article by Matthew Tonts from the Journal of Rural Studies about the Exclusive Brethren in Australia will be of interest..quite long but hopefully informative. It was published in 2001 and you will see on 2nd page footnote it explains "..The primary data for this paper was collected during a number of visits to Dalwallinu between 1994 and 1999. The main source of information was "ve formal face-to-face interviews with local community leaders.." So it may be a good insight into their activity at the time of Marion's disappearance..

 

[KiwiNZ]

Ok thanks I wasn’t aware, I must have got mixed up. So Marion said to the bank the comment about Sally not giving her the money for her car? That’s a weird thing to say to the bank...

I think the car comment ( if it actually happened because Sallys not so sure it was not just her grandad getting confusion) was supposedly to confirm it was her, like can you say something that only Sally would know to confirm you are Marion.

However this comment was included in the Salvation Army's investigation into Marion's disappearance that Sally's Grandad asked them to conduct. It is said that the Salvation Army spoke to the police and this is the information they gave them in regards to confirming it was Marion whom withdrew the cash. I don't think they have this documented in writing from the Salvation Army just in her Grandad's notes.

Sally also said she doesn't not remember the police referring to the car when they originally contacted her to confirm they had located her mother. This is why she had some doubt around the car statement.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[KateM]

This is all possible and of course all unlikely and very possible all at the same time. Nothing can be verified it seems as to what happened to Marion upon her return other than fact someone withdrew from her bank in 3 locations and someone used her medicare card for something. That's about it. The first thing surely would be to determine if someone was with her upon return and if so who. They need to be investigating all checked in names at novotel with a 2 person occupancy and cross referencing those names with a passenger list for her return flight. Surely they can now obtain this and surely once they did those checks could be done relatively quickly. And if payment details for flight and hotel could also somehow be obtained and cross referenced, even better... because the problem is someone could give any name to book a hotel and cover their tracks... but name on a credit or debit card would be a bit more tricky to fake.

Hopefully, all of this will come out at a Coronial Inquest, if indeed there is one.

 

[RossCandyfloss]

Just a few points about the podcast and the case itself...

Like a few other people on here, I thought the treatment of Mr and Mrs Remakel was pretty shabby, considering 7News' unwillingness later on to even try to make contact with the airline pilot or his son (as strong a lead as the Remakel one). I felt Sandy's inner tabloid rotweiller was showing itself when she unapologetically goaded the Remakels over the 'phone. It coincided with the podcast descending into an exercise in heavy padding, as if they knew they'd pretty much exhausted all the leads they had.

The man Sally saw Marion with at the petrol pumps is obviously a crucial witness and very possibly the key to the decisions she was making at that stage in her life. I'd be surprised if Marion didn't confide in someone about him, given her sister's assertion that she was an oversharer. It could be that she'd met someone who really connected with her and felt her recurring problem - never being able to settle properly, geographically or emotionally - could only be purged by breaking the cycle and starting afresh with no ties.

It is a perplexing mystery - as frustrating as Somerton Man - but one I'm convinced will only be resolved if Marion chooses to emerge briefly from the shadows and let her family know she's alive.

 

[KateM]

Just a few points about the podcast and the case itself...

Like a few other people on here, I thought the treatment of Mr and Mrs Remakel was pretty shabby, considering 7News' unwillingness later on to even try to make contact with the airline pilot or his son (as strong a lead as the Remakel one). I felt Sandy's inner tabloid rotweiller was showing itself when she unapologetically goaded the Remakels over the 'phone. It coincided with the podcast descending into an exercise in heavy padding, as if they knew they'd pretty much exhausted all the leads they had.

The man Sally saw Marion with at the petrol pumps is obviously a crucial witness and very possibly the key to the decisions she was making at that stage in her life. I'd be surprised if Marion didn't confide in someone about him, given her sister's assertion that she was an oversharer. It could be that she'd met someone who really connected with her and felt her recurring problem - never being able to settle properly, geographically or emotionally - could only be purged by breaking the cycle and starting afresh with no ties.

It is a perplexing mystery - as frustrating as Somerton Man - but one I'm convinced will only be resolved if Marion chooses to emerge briefly from the shadows and let her family know she's alive.

 

[KateM]

Who is Sandy?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think it's Alison Sandy from channel 7.

Who is Sandy?

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

I think the car comment ( if it actually happened because Sallys not so sure it was not just her grandad getting confusion) was supposedly to confirm it was her, like can you say something that only Sally would know to confirm you are Marion.

However this comment was included in the Salvation Army's investigation into Marion's disappearance that Sally's Grandad asked them to conduct. It is said that the Salvation Army spoke to the police and this is the information they gave them in regards to confirming it was Marion whom withdrew the cash. I don't think they have this documented in writing from the Salvation Army just in her Grandad's notes.

Sally also said she doesn't not remember the police referring to the car when they originally contacted her to confirm they had located her mother. This is why she had some doubt around the car statement.

Hope that makes sense.

Ok thanks makes sense

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Tha LA mag had be blindsided thinking Scientology, I’ve gone off that thought now. Thinking it must just be the name F Remakel, found in the LA library, there’s quite a few over there, and maybe a dentist connection/link, as a dentist did sign the passport photo ... end of today’s thought, will keep looking

 

[TootsieFootsie]

My thinking is that the F Remakel Le Courier ad was someone not using their real name.
I think that the real Fernand Remakel had nothing to do with it.

And that they advertised in more than one country. Hence the possible LA library ad.
I am surprised that no one has come forward saying that they had responded to the ad here,
though maybe someone did and got scammed out of money and felt too embarrassed to come forward.
Or if anyone did, maybe they haven't heard of the case.
Or just don't want to get involved.

Maybe whoever placed the ad is a scammer or scammers who turned into killers.

All just thoughts of what possibly might have happened.
Maybe none of it is true.

 

[KiwiNZ]

My thinking is that the F Remakel Le Courier ad was someone not using their real name.
I think that the real Fernand Remakel had nothing to do with it.

And that they advertised in more than one country. Hence the possible LA library ad.
I am surprised that no one has come forward saying that they had responded to the ad here,
though maybe someone did and got scammed out of money and felt too embarrassed to come forward.
Or if anyone did, maybe they haven't heard of the case.
Or just don't want to get involved.

Maybe whoever placed the ad is a scammer or scammers who turned into killers.

All just thoughts of what possibly might have happened.
Maybe none of it is true.

I would be surprised if the lady whom advertised on the same day as “ remarkel” didnt make contact with each other. They are of a similar age and if your looking for a love connection and advertising in a paper, your likely to respond to an ad in a paper as well.

Note the name “ Marie” is also Mr Remarkls current partner, but also a common name. I haven’t been able to find anything in reference to the below name in my searching. Also not sure why you advertise in an Australian paper when your in France.


FRENCH, 50 years old, blonde-eyed
blue, 1.52 m slim, youthful look,
loving healthy and simple life, seeks,
sober man speaking French even
Interests. Write to Marie LLIMOS, 221
Wallace-St-Pierre Fountains, 84500
Fix this text
BOLLENE, France.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

My thinking is that the F Remakel Le Courier ad was someone not using their real name.
I think that the real Fernand Remakel had nothing to do with it.

And that they advertised in more than one country. Hence the possible LA library ad.
I am surprised that no one has come forward saying that they had responded to the ad here,
though maybe someone did and got scammed out of money and felt too embarrassed to come forward.
Or if anyone did, maybe they haven't heard of the case.
Or just don't want to get involved.

Maybe whoever placed the ad is a scammer or scammers who turned into killers.

All just thoughts of what possibly might have happened.
Maybe none of it is true.

I’m more than ever convinced that the Remakel ad was linked to Marion.
1) when you search for the name Remakel in Australia on say Trove, all that really comes up is the ad. It’s incredibly rare.
2) The location of the ad just so happens to be close to where Marion lived (when you take into account the size of Australia) and super close to where the money was withdrawn.
3) The ad talked about a relationship leading to a possible marriage. How many of these types of ads would talk about marriage? I would guess not that many. And what do we find Marion does, she changes her name to Remakel and says she is married on the passenger card.

I mean think about the odds of this. I’m almost 100% sure that the ad is linked. Now whether it was a scam or real I’m not sure but I’m like you and think it is a possible scam. The male was scamming for a women in her late 40’s or early 50’s and looking for those that had some money or assets behind them. Whether Marion contacted the guy through the ad or in person somewhere I’m not sure. I think there may have been a fake wedding where the guy got someone claiming to be a celebrant to marry them. This all happened a few months before she went overseas. He enticed her by saying they should live in Luxembourg and start a new life together. He tells her that her family won’t accept him and her third marriage and they shouldn’t tell them and keep it a secret. He tells her they should visit Luxembourg so she can see what it’s like and that he’ll take her on the orient express. She wants to visit England too so they go there. She loves the idea of her new life. She finds out she can only get her money from the bank by being in australia, so they head back to Australia so she can get her money from the bank. She withdraws her money in small increments because the guy persuaded her as he is worried she’ll get a bank Cheque which he can’t use and wants it in cash. He’s worried if she gets it out in a large cash amount it will raise suspicion with bank staff. Once she gets all the cash he kills her.

That’s my best answer for what happened but obviously totally open on this.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I am going to go back and double check. But when looking into the Remakel surname and more American connections were coming up.. am sure there was a link to a dentist.. Will need to check.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

SeriallyAddicted, I wrote much the same scenario earlier in this thread. It's the simplest explanation for everything. Meeting up with a man named Remakel. Changing her name in advance of promised (or imagined) marriage. Advising Marion to keep the marriage secret until Remakel had gotten her money. My only new thought is that Remakel may not have set out to scam but involvement with Marion led to it.

Think about it: If I were a scammer I'd use a more common name and I'd be careful about leaving a print ad trail. Also, don't you think at least one other woman would have come forward to admit she'd been scammed-- if Remakel were a serial or committed scammer?

So if I depart from your scenario at all, I'd venture that Remakel hooked up with Marion from the ad, she went overboard with their relationship, Remakel saw opportunity and took it, Marion becomes a problem, Marion is killed, Remakel gets the hell out of Australia. If this scenario is close to true, the police will be able to see his movements, in Australia, wouldn't they?

If it is a scammer using a fake name, the police won't be able to detect his movements.

At least, we have a real investigation going on now!

 

[KiwiNZ]

SeriallyAddicted, I wrote much the same scenario earlier in this thread. It's the simplest explanation for everything. Meeting up with a man named Remakel. Changing her name in advance of promised (or imagined) marriage. Advising Marion to keep the marriage secret until Remakel had gotten her money. My only new thought is that Remakel may not have set out to scam but involvement with Marion led to it.

Think about it: If I were a scammer I'd use a more common name and I'd be careful about leaving a print ad trail. Also, don't you think at least one other woman would have come forward to admit she'd been scammed-- if Remakel were a serial or committed scammer?

So if I depart from your scenario at all, I'd venture that Remakel hooked up with Marion from the ad, she went overboard with their relationship, Remakel saw opportunity and took it, Marion becomes a problem, Marion is killed, Remakel gets the hell out of Australia. If this scenario is close to true, the police will be able to see his movements, in Australia, wouldn't they?

If it is a scammer using a fake name, the police won't be able to detect his movements.

At least, we have a real investigation going on now!

If the person travelled with her to or from the UK they should be able to track him by his passport. If he never left the country with her that could be a issue.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

If the person travelled with her to or from the UK they should be able to track him by his passport. If he never left the country with her that could be a issue.

Good thought KiwiNZ. H'mm, was thinking too, if a person travelling with Marion was seriously intending on covering their tracks, they may have stopped off a little longer in Hong Kong while Marion took the next flight back to Australia. Maybe they said they had to do some business or something. Or maybe they also boarded the flight to UK from HK, meeting Marion at airport .... end of spontaneous thought. Yes, agree with you, that would be tricky tracking the connection with Marion.

 

[Meligator]

Perhaps she did respond to ad & have some connection with F. Remakel (phone/letters), but that connection having nothing to do with the reason she went missing—-aside from her thinking Remakal name/Luxembourg make for a good cover identity.

 

[Sparkles5777]

SeriallyAddicted, I wrote much the same scenario earlier in this thread. It's the simplest explanation for everything. Meeting up with a man named Remakel. Changing her name in advance of promised (or imagined) marriage. Advising Marion to keep the marriage secret until Remakel had gotten her money. My only new thought is that Remakel may not have set out to scam but involvement with Marion led to it.

Think about it: If I were a scammer I'd use a more common name and I'd be careful about leaving a print ad trail. Also, don't you think at least one other woman would have come forward to admit she'd been scammed-- if Remakel were a serial or committed scammer?

So if I depart from your scenario at all, I'd venture that Remakel hooked up with Marion from the ad, she went overboard with their relationship, Remakel saw opportunity and took it, Marion becomes a problem, Marion is killed, Remakel gets the hell out of Australia. If this scenario is close to true, the police will be able to see his movements, in Australia, wouldn't they?

If it is a scammer using a fake name, the police won't be able to detect his movements.

At least, we have a real investigation going on now!

I like this theory. My only addition to this though is that police have already said no one with the surname Remakel has entered or exited Australia (except for Marion) which makes me think it was someone using the Remakel name for the add.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Yikes!! Sorry everyone for blooper, but thanks for picking it up so quick ... thanks Kellipat and all the sleuths, you were onto this quick smart, hey ... I absolutely have no idea where I suddenly got the idea that Marion had a mobile phone, thought I read it somewhere, but was totally wrong - just saw a post on the Facebook saying Marion did not have one ... got no idea where I got that idea from. Anyway, ah well, forgiveness, and if Post #373 could be stricken from the record and declared null and void ... it is redundant. Make it so.
Cheers.
Itsapuzzle, Monday at 10:06 AMReport
#373

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yikes!! Sorry everyone for blooper, but thanks for picking it up so quick ... thanks Kellipat and all the sleuths, you were onto this quick smart, hey ... I absolutely have no idea where I suddenly got the idea that Marion had a mobile phone, thought I read it somewhere, but was totally wrong - just saw a post on the Facebook saying Marion did not have one ... got no idea where I got that idea from. Anyway, ah well, forgiveness, and if Post #373 could be stricken from the record and declared null and void ... it is redundant. Make it so.
Cheers.
Itsapuzzle, Monday at 10:06 AMReport
#373

Sorry hadn’t seen that they answered the question.

This is one of those cases you dream about, so you probally added it in after a dream lol.