Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #13

[deugirtni]

I wonder what *exactly* Idsinga said to KD, ie did he say 'the 13th', or did he say 'Wednesday night'? If 'Wednesday night', then to me, that could be into the early hours of Thursday the 14th. When I talk about the night, it always includes the hours after midnight, including the wee hours of the next day... UNLESS I'm being totally careful about specifics, then I would say 'early hours of Thursday'. Because I myself refer to the night that way, I assume most others do as well. If Idsinga had said to KD, 'they died Wed night', could KD have taken that literally and then made it more specific than it actually was, by saying 'he said they died on the 13th'? ETA: And from there, KD could go even further to say it was therefore between 9pm and midnight, since it's the 14th after midnight and Idsinga said the 13th (when in fact Idsinga had actually only said 'wed night').

eg. One of my best friends died suddenly and unexpectedly, and the offspring called me next day, and said 'dad died last night'. To this day, I still don't know for sure the date of my friend's death (there was no obit, no funeral, no nothing ). To me, he could've died at 12:30am, or 2am, or 11pm or 10pm or 7pm.. I don't have those specifics. Perhaps neither does KD.

 

[deugirtni]

If the conclusion is that the deaths occurred between the hours of 9-12pm on Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017, is it possible a household utility of some kind, helped to narrow down the timeline ?
speculation, imo.

Smart Water Meter Data Considered Evidence In Murder Case
January 3, 2017
''Smart water meter data was used as evidence in a recent murder investigation in Arkansas, and the case has privacy advocates sounding alarm bells.

“Court documents show investigators believe James Bates cleaned up the murder scene because of the amount of water he used in a two-hour window. Police said they got that data from the smart water meter at his home, which, according to the city utilities department, takes a measurement every hour of how much water is used,” 5 News Online reported.

“With every home in Bentonville, AK, hooked up to a smart meter that measures hourly electricity and water usage, police looked at the data and noticed Bates used an ‘excessive amount of water’ during the alleged drowning,” CNET reported.''

Are smart meters real-time surveillance spies?
''Mar 1, 2011
From reading it, a person might wonder if smart meters will be real-time surveillance spies. It suggests that insurance companies might use the smart meter data to determine health care premiums, such as if there is high usage at night which would indicate sleep behavior problems. Besides looking to bust pot farmers, law enforcement might use the data as "real-time surveillance to determine if residents are present and current activities inside the home." The press might wish to see the smart meter data of celebrities. Criminals may want to see the data to determine the best time for a burglary and what high dollar appliances you might have to steal.''

There are *so* many things that could lead LE to believe it happened on the Wed night. The housekeeper said the bed was still made. Perhaps there were 'rituals' that one or other of the couple did faithfully every single day, such as showering and leaving the towels in a certain spot, or whatever, and perhaps the housekeeper could tell those things hadn't happened either, since she had last been in the house. The water usage as well, and the hydro usage, and internet usage. The emails which BS never responded to later that evening, which reportedly was not like him. Etc. But definitely we are becoming more and more watched with all of this 'smart' technology... red light cameras, etc. Scary, really.

 

[dotr]

I wonder what *exactly* Idsinga said to KD, ie did he say 'the 13th', or did he say 'Wednesday night'? If 'Wednesday night', then to me, that could be into the early hours of Thursday the 14th. When I talk about the night, it always includes the hours after midnight, including the wee hours of the next day... UNLESS I'm being totally careful about specifics, then I would say 'early hours of Thursday'. Because I myself refer to the night that way, I assume most others do as well. If Idsinga had said to KD, 'they died Wed night', could KD have taken that literally and then made it more specific than it actually was, by saying 'he said they died on the 13th'? ETA: And from there, KD could go even further to say it was therefore between 9pm and midnight, since it's the 14th after midnight and Idsinga said the 13th (when in fact Idsinga had actually only said 'wed night').

eg. One of my best friends died suddenly and unexpectedly, and the offspring called me next day, and said 'dad died last night'. To this day, I still don't know for sure the date of my friend's death (there was no obit, no funeral, no nothing ). To me, he could've died at 12:30am, or 2am, or 11pm or 10pm or 7pm.. I don't have those specifics. Perhaps neither does KD.

Sorry about the sudden loss of your friend deugirtni, that must have been a horrible shock for you no matter what time it happened.

LE seem to be quite sure now about the time and date of the murders, imo.rbbm.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say | The Star
''Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within a few hours of arriving at their Toronto home on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017.

Insp. Hank Idsinga of the Toronto police homicide unit confirmed to the Star this week that “after considering a number of factors that were uncovered during the investigation,” his detectives have determined the Shermans were murdered on the Wednesday. ''

Idsinga would not reveal what the factors are that have allowed police and forensic officers to pinpoint the time of death, saying that to reveal detailed information about the case would jeopardize the homicide probe, now into its third year.''

 

[deugirtni]

Sorry about the sudden loss of your friend deugirtni, that must have been a horrible shock for you no matter what time it happened.

LE seem to be quite sure now about the time and date of the murders, imo.rbbm.
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within hours of arriving home, Toronto police say | The Star
''Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered within a few hours of arriving at their Toronto home on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017.

Insp. Hank Idsinga of the Toronto police homicide unit confirmed to the Star this week that “after considering a number of factors that were uncovered during the investigation,” his detectives have determined the Shermans were murdered on the Wednesday. ''

Idsinga would not reveal what the factors are that have allowed police and forensic officers to pinpoint the time of death, saying that to reveal detailed information about the case would jeopardize the homicide probe, now into its third year.''

But notice how 'the Wednesday' part is not in quotes from Idsinga?

 

[Jay78]

I just listened to the interview posted about with KD--and I'm paraphrasing but he said something like--"we are now two years into this investigation, and I feel that they are coming to a close, but they (LE) will not confirm this to me."

 

[Lexiintoronto]

“Is this a sign of a police investigation nearing its conclusion and building a case? Toronto police say the “investigation is very active,” but it is not in the “final stages.” While a crown attorney has been “consulted” police say that is normal in a homicide investigation and “no Crown has been assigned to the case.” The involvement of a crown attorney can be a sign that police are getting close to an arrest. One detective told the Star last October he is “cautiously optimistic” police are on the right track. They have a “working theory” that has not wavered for close to a year, the detective told a courtroom during the Star’s attempt to unseal search warrant documents.”



“...Idsinga explained this week that “things are changing daily” in the probe — it is clear from the court record that almost all of the interviews were done in the first three months. Those people include Sherman friends, businesss associates, some family members, the private pathologist who made the double murder diagnosis and others. Intriguingly, two people interviewed in the initial flurry were re-interviewed last summer because they brought forward new information to police. Court has also heard that there are people (no number or names were given) who have elected not to speak to the police.”
Barry and Honey Sherman murder investigation has interviewed few witnesses in almost 2 years. Cops are focused on reviewing video and data to catch the killer | The Star

 

[casesensitive]

But notice how 'the Wednesday' part is not in quotes from Idsinga?

KD was asked if TOD could have happened in the early hours of Thursday, and he said no, LE were definite it was on Wednesday.

Kevin Donovan talks about Barry and Honey Sherman murdered - The John Oakley Show - Omny.fm

 

[casesensitive]

With the wrap up of Greenspan's investigation, the apparently good relations between the Sherman family and TPS, and the significance that TPS are definite that BS and HS died on Wednesday, I am feeling pretty confident that LE have closed in on a main suspect. (fingers crossed).

 

[ldlager]

With the wrap up of Greenspan's investigation, the apparently good relations between the Sherman family and TPS, and the significance that TPS are definite that BS and HS died on Wednesday, I am feeling pretty confident that LE have closed in on a main suspect. (fingers crossed).

I truly do admire, and wish I could share, your optimism casesensitive.
But IMO, LE messed up this case so much from such an early stage that I think they are way behind where we reasonably could expect that they should be. If they are anywhere at all.

 

[Satchie]

I am a little perplexed though why the TPS released this confirmation of time of death at all. Was it just to show they are cooperating with the media, or did they have some other purpose?

If the TPS is focusing on a family member's involvement in the crime, is this release of information a means to say Alexandra is not involved (based on the warm and friendly details in the emails).

I assume it has to do with KD relentlessly taking TPS to court including the Supreme Court of Canada, trying to extract information for his paper and book. Perhaps they are throwing him some scraps to try to save on legal costs and time they are wasting in courtrooms, being interrogated by him.

 

[dotr]

“Is this a sign of a police investigation nearing its conclusion and building a case? Toronto police say the “investigation is very active,” but it is not in the “final stages.” While a crown attorney has been “consulted” police say that is normal in a homicide investigation and “no Crown has been assigned to the case.” The involvement of a crown attorney can be a sign that police are getting close to an arrest. One detective told the Star last October he is “cautiously optimistic” police are on the right track. They have a “working theory” that has not wavered for close to a year, the detective told a courtroom during the Star’s attempt to unseal search warrant documents.”

View attachment 226507

“...Idsinga explained this week that “things are changing daily” in the probe — it is clear from the court record that almost all of the interviews were done in the first three months. Those people include Sherman friends, businesss associates, some family members, the private pathologist who made the double murder diagnosis and others. Intriguingly, two people interviewed in the initial flurry were re-interviewed last summer because they brought forward new information to police. Court has also heard that there are people (no number or names were given) who have elected not to speak to the police.”
Barry and Honey Sherman murder investigation has interviewed few witnesses in almost 2 years. Cops are focused on reviewing video and data to catch the killer | The Star

.
rbbm.
It almost sounds like the perp would be surprised if alerted '' that the police are onto him''but why ? imo.

''On the issue of whether the police have a suspect or suspects, they refuse to say. In court last October, a Star reporter questioned Yim, asking why he would not say if there was a suspect or suspects, or a person of interest (someone who is not a suspect but may later fall into that category).

“If I speak in a general term I might be able to explain that,” Yim told court. “If in a case there’s only one perpetrator and that perpetrator knows that he is the only one, if I answer that we have a person of interest or we have a suspect, then that may alert the perpetrator that the police are onto him. And that’s why when you ask me that question, I’m reluctant to answer.”

Yim explained that when a production order is served, the “entity” that receives it (a bank or a telecommunications company, for example) is barred by a court order from revealing to the individual that a search was carried out.''

 

[kiwi50]

I truly do admire, and wish I could share, your optimism casesensitive.
But IMO, LE messed up this case so much from such an early stage that I think they are way behind where we reasonably could expect that they should be. If they are anywhere at all.

I’m with you, I have no confidence that they are anywhere near solving this case, I cant believe the lack of resources and seemingly indifference by the TPS into moving it along.

 

[Satchie]

I’m with you, I have no confidence that they are anywhere near solving this case, I cant believe the lack of resources and seemingly indifference by the TPS into moving it along.

It sounds like you believe that every crime can be solved and prosecuted, and the ones that aren't, are the fault of police, either lack of resources or interest, incompetence, etc.

I believe crimes can and do remain unsolved, when there's no obvious suspect (such as a husband who benefits from a big insurance payout) and when the killers plan carefully and/or nothing goes wrong. Especially if they confine themselves to one crime: it's often when committing multiple crimes that killers make mistakes. Everyone watches crime drama or even reads websleuths these days, they know how to avoid leaving DNA and fingerprints, covering up shoeprints, avoiding cameras, not bringing their cellphone, not telling anyone, perhaps arranging a fake alibi, not being an obvious suspect or seeming guilty. Plus the Shermans didn't care to invest in a security system, no one missed them and came to check on them Thurs, the crime was staged to confuse the cause of deaths, and so forth.
Aside from "solving" the crime ie believing they know who did it, police have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, in a way that will stand up to appeal in court.
IMO, it's a miracle police solve the crimes that they do, and we take it totally for granted.
But in the end, if someone really wants to kill you, they will do it. Whether they go to jail for it or not, the Shermans will still remain dead.

 

[ldlager]

.
rbbm.
It almost sounds like the perp would be surprised if alerted '' that the police are onto him''but why ? imo.

''On the issue of whether the police have a suspect or suspects, they refuse to say. In court last October, a Star reporter questioned Yim, asking why he would not say if there was a suspect or suspects, or a person of interest (someone who is not a suspect but may later fall into that category).

“If I speak in a general term I might be able to explain that,” Yim told court. “If in a case there’s only one perpetrator and that perpetrator knows that he is the only one, if I answer that we have a person of interest or we have a suspect, then that may alert the perpetrator that the police are onto him. And that’s why when you ask me that question, I’m reluctant to answer.”

Yim explained that when a production order is served, the “entity” that receives it (a bank or a telecommunications company, for example) is barred by a court order from revealing to the individual that a search was carried out.''

What I took from Tim’s comment is that if there was a single perp, and tps indicated they knew it was a single perp, this could alert the suspect.

 

[dotr]

Couple donates $2-million to build new centre for Toronto’s Anishnawbe Health Foundation
January 17, 2020
The donors: Alexandra and Brad Krawczyk
The gift: $2-million

 

[kiwi50]

It sounds like you believe that every crime can be solved and prosecuted, and the ones that aren't, are the fault of police, either lack of resources or interest, incompetence, etc.

I believe crimes can and do remain unsolved, when there's no obvious suspect (such as a husband who benefits from a big insurance payout) and when the killers plan carefully and/or nothing goes wrong. Especially if they confine themselves to one crime: it's often when committing multiple crimes that killers make mistakes. Everyone watches crime drama or even reads websleuths these days, they know how to avoid leaving DNA and fingerprints, covering up shoeprints, avoiding cameras, not bringing their cellphone, not telling anyone, perhaps arranging a fake alibi, not being an obvious suspect or seeming guilty. Plus the Shermans didn't care to invest in a security system, no one missed them and came to check on them Thurs, the crime was staged to confuse the cause of deaths, and so forth.
Aside from "solving" the crime ie believing they know who did it, police have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, in a way that will stand up to appeal in court.
IMO, it's a miracle police solve the crimes that they do, and we take it totally for granted.
But in the end, if someone really wants to kill you, they will do it. Whether they go to jail for it or not, the Shermans will still remain dead.

No, not at all, after following true crime cases for over 50 years I obviously realize not all cases can be solved, but I cant recall any other such high profile cases where the police seem so disinterested, perhaps they thought Greenspan would solve it.
How many detectives are actively working on the case now?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

.
rbbm.
It almost sounds like the perp would be surprised if alerted '' that the police are onto him''but why ? imo.

''On the issue of whether the police have a suspect or suspects, they refuse to say. In court last October, a Star reporter questioned Yim, asking why he would not say if there was a suspect or suspects, or a person of interest (someone who is not a suspect but may later fall into that category).

“If I speak in a general term I might be able to explain that,” Yim told court. “If in a case there’s only one perpetrator and that perpetrator knows that he is the only one, if I answer that we have a person of interest or we have a suspect, then that may alert the perpetrator that the police are onto him. And that’s why when you ask me that question, I’m reluctant to answer.”

Yim explained that when a production order is served, the “entity” that receives it (a bank or a telecommunications company, for example) is barred by a court order from revealing to the individual that a search was carried out.''

Maybe it’s the least likely suspect?

FD’A said he thought the killer was someone Barry had trusted to the end: “I think that when he looked in the eyes of his killer he was just overwhelmed with a sense of betrayal.”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

 

[dotr]

Maybe it’s the least likely suspect?

FD’A said he thought the killer was someone Barry had trusted to the end: “I think that when he looked in the eyes of his killer he was just overwhelmed with a sense of betrayal.”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

Exactly!

 

[ldlager]

Maybe it’s the least likely suspect?

FD’A said he thought the killer was someone Barry had trusted to the end: “I think that when he looked in the eyes of his killer he was just overwhelmed with a sense of betrayal.”
Billionaire couple found 'murdered' discussed pledging their fortune to philanthropy campaign | Daily Mail Online

FDA states “...They say he didn't put up a fight, there wasn't a mark on him....”
Who is “they” and why would they tell FDA this? Not that I believe anything that comes out of his mouth

 

[casesensitive]

FDA states “...They say he didn't put up a fight, there wasn't a mark on him....”
Who is “they” and why would they tell FDA this? Not that I believe anything that comes out of his mouth

He could likely be referring to what the media has written (re Honey was the only one with a noticeable face injury). He didn't say "They told me...". I wonder how he felt when he heard that JS suspected him of killing them?