Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, stepfather found* #10

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I am still just so confused as to how they can run off to Hawaii without kids, not tell anyone where their kids are, and not be arrested on suspicion of foul play.

I get that US law is different as regards primacy of the child etc - but can criminal law be so different as regards probable cause?

This seems to open the possibility to have a Maddie style mystery where the parents say nothing?

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney. However, my opinion from following other cases here is that they will eventually be arrested if they don't produce the kids. It seems like the process is simply different/slower/more complex here than it is in the UK. As more time passes without anybody having seen the kids to verify that they are in fact alive, the fact of how long it has been alone can become part of the evidence/probable cause for more warrants to be issued.

I don't think it is any coincidence that the child protection order was served on Lori just after 4 months had passed without any confirmed sightings of JJ and Tylee (they were last seen Sept 23 or Sept 24 and the order was served on Jan 25, with additional search warrants served Jan 26). Police have indicated that the children are not in Hawaii and there is no evidence the children were ever with Lori and Chad in HI. They have known about Chad and Lori's location for weeks. But for some reason LE did not serve them with this order or additional search warrants before now. I think there must be some law that the Madison County Prosecutor was able to use that involves that passage of time (4 months). Maybe a homeschooling law or maybe something to do with the social security benefits the children would be receiving due to their fathers being deceased. I don't know what law it could be. But my opinion is that 4 month time mark was used to get the order and the additional warrants. They are very slowly building a case with everything they have gathered. We don't know what evidence they have or what they lack still to prove foul play. Unfortunately, if they don't have evidence of the kids being dead such as their blood in a vehicle or house it can take a lot longer for an arrest.

MOO.
 
I don’t think this has been posted yet:
“...source says it looks like they (Lori & Chad) left overnight and early this morning — lights off.”

Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix

Not sure what makes the source think they left rather than just going to bed though. (?) Doesn’t mention seeing them leave..

I'm thinking since the previous photo had all the window treatments OPEN when the lights were on overnight, and now in am they are off, that perhaps they have vacated and lights are on a timer? Who knows. That photo with all lights on and blinds/curtains open to see entirety inside of unit leads me to belive such is possible. If Lori and Chad were there, I doubt they would do such iykwim
 
That's just it though. If she's completely innocent of any wrongdoing, the children are safely hidden away for whatever reason, and this whole drama does turn out to be over some bizzare custody battle, then not showing up doesn't help her in any way (at least that I can see). She has more to lose by not showing up because then she'd risk legally losing the kids (if they're ever found), lose the custody dispute ( that was never there to begin with, according to LE), get a criminal record, risk getting thrown in jail, lose her money in costly legal battles, lose the support of family, friends, and others who question her actions and behavior, and who knows what other unforseen consequences.

People keep throwing out this supposed custody dispute as the reason for hiding the kids (assuming they are still alive and hidden somewhere). But yet that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. Here are a few reasons why:

  1. LE says there's no custody dispute. Which means either Lori's defenders are simply mistaken, or LE is lying. Without knowing anything else I would lean towards believing LE over the supporters because LE has greater access to the facts in the case, whereas the supporters only have conjecture at this point. And what I mean by that is I've never heard Lori or anyone else directly tied to the case even mention a custody battle - that argument has only ever come from people who are not personally involved, and with no supporting evidence, ergo it's pure speculation at this point.
  2. Who would even be able to bring forth a valid and legal custody claim? Not Tylee's father, he's dead. Not JJ's adoptive father, he's dead too. Not JJ's biological parents - they ceded custody from the very beginning and wouldn't likely have any standing still. Who does that leave? Grandparents? Lori's parents aren't likely to do that, and besides grandparents generally don't have much legal standing to force a custody battle. Maybe JJ's grandparents? Well, they have shown an interest in the children's safety and well-being, but again grandparents don't have many legal rights in custody disputes. Besides that though, from all appearances they have always looked on Lori with love and great respect as a good mother and caretaker of the kids, and the wife of Charles. It wasn't until after this whole mess broke out that their views and opinions have begun to change a little, but even here they haven't been exactly aggressive or hostile towards her like one would expect considering the circumstances, but genuinely compassionate and trying to make sense of everything in as loving a way as I've ever seen. Who else would have a legal case to fight for custody of the kids? The government maybe? But why would they get involved? They may potentially get involved now with everything that's been happening in the past few months, but there was absolutely no indication of anything like that from before the kids were disappeared.
  3. Even if there was some party involved in a custody dispute, Lori, being the mother and legal guardian of the children, had the backing and full weight of the law on her side. Even if JJ's grandparents were fighting for custody, threatening to take the kids away, or harassing Lori by constantly sending the police to investigate and perform welfare checks (none of which appears to have ever happened), Lori has full rights and could have easily handled the situation legally. As an example, I have had extended family involved in divorces and ugly legal battles for custody of the children where one party or another will try and use the police as a weapon by constantly calling for welfare checks. This almost always and invariably backfires on the person as charges of harassment and/or custodial interference can be filed against them. The one party simply needs to show the child/children to the police to show that they're ok and doing well and then file a complaint against the other party for harassment or custodial interference (assuming they've been doing it habitually and as a means of disrupting legal parent time). I just don't see how hiding the kids away if there truly is a custody dispute is a good idea in any way shape or form. It would most likely backfire on the parent or guardian.
  4. Even if they were hidden away safely because of a custody issue, what kind of parent would tell others that their children are dead or simply never existed, like Lori and Chad apparently are on record as having said? That one's a real head scratcher and doesn't look good no matter how you look at it. Better to simply tell the truth and say that they're in hiding because of a nasty custody dispute. You'd at least get a lot more compassion and sympathy, and maybe people even willing to help you out and take care of the kids if they're perceived to be in danger from a former spouse' family. All moo.
  5. If a custody dispute is truly going on, who in their right mind abandons their children into the care of another for an extended period of time and goes on vacation to a tropical island paradise with no apparent concern or contact with the children? I mean seriously! Like I said earlier, there's been a few custody disputes among my relations, and in every single instance the parent has kept the children as close as possible to themselves at all times, even sometimes at the risk of doing something stupid and ill advised (such as taking the children across state lines without informing the other party in a joint custody case, potentially bringing kidnapping charges against the offending party). If Lori is hiding the children with family, friends, or others, she's sure putting a whole lot of trust in them that they won't turn the kids over to the government, especially with the risk the new guardians would be facing in a missing and endangered children case. I just don't see it happening. Besides that, if they were alive and well, under the care of others, you'd think Lori (assuming she's like any other loving parent) would want to stay in touch with them and make sure they were ok. If such were happening then I'm sure LE would have been able to pick up on that and track them down by now. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get a search warrant for the phone records of the POI and find out who they've been calling regularly and locate the children from that. Which obviously hasn't happened yet.
A custody battle simply doesn't make any kind of reasonable sense as to why the children might be hidden away. Unfortunately there's a whole lot of other scenarios that do make sense as to why Lori and Chad might want the children disappeared. And it doesn't end well for anyone, especially the children. Moo, sadly. :(
First of all you can't take what you can't find. Second no crime has actually been committed. Everybody saying that it's not a custody battle, It's definitely not a crime case. law enforcement can't technically identify if it's a custody battle but with they can identify is acrime that has been committed. So far they haven't or else they would be in jail. You especially have identified what terrible parents would do, but not what parents that are breaking the law would do. The courts will not take her kids or even hear a custody battle if they don't have evidence that she is actually breaking the law in which in this case may need the kids to be shown. Hence hide the kids. I stand by my earlier statement and opinion. -MOO. BTW Don't get me wrong I think Lori' and Chad are and unfortunately our weak laws protect them.
 
It’s D-Day for Doomsday Mom Lori Vallow to Produce Missing Kids

30 Jan 2020

In the six weeks since Idaho police announced that Tylee and J.J. Vallow were missing, the investigation into the siblings’ disappearance has taken more turns than one of their stepfather’s Mormon apocalypse novels.

And there’s likely to be another one Thursday—the court-ordered deadline for their mother, Lori Vallow, to produce them or face a contempt of court charge and possible arrest and extradition from Hawaii.

[...]

Kauai Prosecuting Attorney Justin Kollar told The Daily Beast on Wednesday that he’s been involved in other missing persons cases over the last decade, “but I’ve never seen one with so many twists and turns.”

He did not know if Vallow and Daybell had left Hawaii for Idaho, and Kauai police did not return calls for comment. In Idaho, authorities are being very close-lipped because much of the child-protection case is sealed.

“We hope and pray that the children will be produced or found and that they are safe and healthy,” Madison County Prosecuting Attorney Rob Wood said in a statement.

Read more: It’s D-Day for Doomsday Mom Lori Vallow to Produce Missing Kids
 
Grandparents of missing Idaho boy plead for his return as mom faces deadline to produce him

Jan 30, 2020

The grandparents of a missing Idaho boy pleaded for his safe return Wednesday, a day before the child's mother faces a deadline to physically produce him to authorities.

"I'll get on my knees and beg," Larry Woodcock said. "Just give me JJ."

[...]

JJ's grandparents told CNN affiliate KIFI Wednesday that they are not optimistic Vallow will appear.

"She's got all the attention on her -- good, bad or indifferent -- and it's going to be bad if she doesn't show up," Kay Woodcock told the station.

But whether she cooperates or not, the family will continue fighting, Larry Woodcock said.

"We're in this for the long haul. This is not going to end tomorrow. I'm not going to let it end. Kay is not going to let it end. Our family is not going to let this end," he said.

Read more: Grandparents of missing Idaho boy plead for his return as mom faces deadline to produce him
 
Deadline looms for mom to produce 2 missing kids
Lori Vallow was found in Hawaii months after her kids were last seen in Idaho.

January 30, 2020

The mother of two missing Idaho children is up against the deadline to "physically produce" her 7-year-old son and 17-year-old daughter, whose months-long disappearance has unearthed a mysterious case involving the family.

Lori Vallow, 46, may be subject to civil or criminal contempt of court if she does not bring Joshua "JJ" Vallow and sister Tylee Ryan to either the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare or the Rexburg Police Department by Thursday, according to police.

[...]

Assistant Police Chief Gary Hagen told ABC News that he could not detail exactly what penalties Vallow would face if she's held in contempt of court, citing the child protection act.

The Madison County prosecutor in Rexburg similarly said in a statement that child protection cases are "sealed and confidential."

"While the Court did allow us to announce the existence of the case and the order that Lori Vallow produce her children, any and all other documents, hearings, and court filings are sealed and confidential by law," according to the statement.

Read more: Deadline looms for mom to produce 2 missing kids
 
Deadline looms for mom to produce 2 missing kids
Lori Vallow was found in Hawaii months after her kids were last seen in Idaho.


January 30, 2020

The mother of two missing Idaho children is up against the deadline to "physically produce" her 7-year-old son and 17-year-old daughter, whose months-long disappearance has unearthed a mysterious case involving the family.

Lori Vallow, 46, may be subject to civil or criminal contempt of court if she does not bring Joshua "JJ" Vallow and sister Tylee Ryan to either the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare or the Rexburg Police Department by Thursday, according to police.

[...]

Assistant Police Chief Gary Hagen told ABC News that he could not detail exactly what penalties Vallow would face if she's held in contempt of court, citing the child protection act.

The Madison County prosecutor in Rexburg similarly said in a statement that child protection cases are "sealed and confidential."

"While the Court did allow us to announce the existence of the case and the order that Lori Vallow produce her children, any and all other documents, hearings, and court filings are sealed and confidential by law," according to the statement.

Read more: Deadline looms for mom to produce 2 missing kids
I find it hard to believe contempt of court penalties are not covered in Idaho statutes for child protection cases. Sounds fishy. Why the secrecy?
 
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Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney. However, my opinion from following other cases here is that they will eventually be arrested if they don't produce the kids. It seems like the process is simply different/slower/more complex here than it is in the UK. As more time passes without anybody having seen the kids to verify that they are in fact alive, the fact of how long it has been alone can become part of the evidence/probable cause for more warrants to be issued.

I don't think it is any coincidence that the child protection order was served on Lori just after 4 months had passed without any confirmed sightings of JJ and Tylee (they were last seen Sept 23 or Sept 24 and the order was served on Jan 25, with additional search warrants served Jan 26). Police have indicated that the children are not in Hawaii and there is no evidence the children were ever with Lori and Chad in HI. They have known about Chad and Lori's location for weeks. But for some reason LE did not serve them with this order or additional search warrants before now. I think there must be some law that the Madison County Prosecutor was able to use that involves that passage of time (4 months). Maybe a homeschooling law or maybe something to do with the social security benefits the children would be receiving due to their fathers being deceased. I don't know what law it could be. But my opinion is that 4 month time mark was used to get the order and the additional warrants. They are very slowly building a case with everything they have gathered. We don't know what evidence they have or what they lack still to prove foul play. Unfortunately, if they don't have evidence of the kids being dead such as their blood in a vehicle or house it can take a lot longer for an arrest.

MOO.

Wow. A new kind of heartbreak is just dawning on me. In four months, not one person that I know of has come forward to even say "Hey, Tylee and JJ are safe and alive, but it's none of your business where they are. That's all I'm willing to say."

NOBODY has even said this much, right??
 
Wow, this is a crazy case, no novelist could even come up with such a chilling story.

I am a zillion thoughts in my head and have been trying to sort them out so I don’t come across as a ranting lunatic.


My (single) mother was a social worker for a looong time when she was on call, I would sometimes have to join her ( I waited in the car) when she and the police had to go retain custody of children from their homes. Always a heartbreaking experience, kids love their parents No Matter What. Anyway, it’s VERY, VERY rare for someone to hide their child UNLESS it had to do with accusations of sexual or physical abuse. The only “hiding the kids” cases my mother ever saw was both parents with drug issues and they wanted to hurt each other by withholding a child. In this case, you get arrested for that until you can produce the location of the child and the child is interviewed. CPS has the right to question a child without a parent's consent if allegations of abuse or neglect. THIS CASE has NO fighting parents, no allegations of abuse- even from Kay & Larry. So, it depends on the state laws, all are different – no children can equal neglect, a form of abuse. If they have evidence that the child has been harmed or witnesses who have seen improper things/treatment (but are laying low to protect the case) there is def a criminal case.


Everyone says “oh this is weird, Lori was such a good mom, she even flew her kid’s friend to Hawaii” never really knew her, because psychopaths are charming AS HECK. They are great at charming people to get what they want and as long as they keep getting what they want they play nicely. When the time comes and they don’t get their way….. watch out! Plus, spending $$ on your kid doesn’t always mean you’re a great parent. Think of all the poor lil rich kids who have everything but nothing.


I think there is so much we don’t know and it’s so frustrating. We have no idea what ZP has said during her police interview, we have no idea what the police have collected from the Daybell kids, Lori’s friends/family. I am hoping the stalling to arrest is all to build a case that no lawyer can puncture.


ONE QUESTION -If the kids are deceased, God forbid but let’s be logical. Where would their bodies be? Are there massive forests or lakes in ID? Where would a petite little woman like Lori hide that and if she had the help from Alex, why would he harm her children when he knows they have never harmed Lori. Would bodies be in AZ or ID?
 
29 Jan 2020

[...]

"There's a lot of unanswered questions that are tying a lot of people from multiple places all to one person," said Fremont County Sheriff Len Humphries.

[...]

"We took a second look at her death and decided that it would be best to look deeper," Sheriff Humphries said.

[...]

"The quick turnaround on Chad's remarriage after Tammy's death - to Lori - that's not very common that someone would remarry that quickly," the sheriff said.

Read more and see video interview with Sheriff at the link: UPDATE: Chad and Lori Daybell have no answers for reporters or police
 
But if she is collecting SS benefits for the kids, don't they at least do a once a year interview to make sure the kids are still benefiting from them by, oh I don't know, being alive!

I collected survivor's benefits for my kids. I never once had to show proof of anything other than a bank statement. When they reached the age of 16 I had to show proof of school enrolment. If you showed too large a balance then your monthly benefits would be reduced. That never happened to me.

This kinda shows how people end up in freezers (no death certificate) and their families continue to collect benefits for decades.
 
January 30, 2020, 8:29 AM

Idaho children still missing after "multiple deaths with strange circumstances"

[...]

At a November welfare check at Vallow's home, two months after the children were last seen, police say she lied to them about their whereabouts. A day later, she and Daybell disappeared as police showed up to serve a search warrant.

The couple refused to answer a reporter's questions in Hawaii, moments after police executed a search warrant and seized their rented SUV.

JJ's grandparents Larry and Kay Woodcock are pleading for the safe return of him and his sister, CBS News correspondent Nikki Battiste reports.

nfa-missing-idaho-children-pkg-needs-trk-gfx-frame-1502.jpg

CBS News

"Bring the kids, that's it," Kay Woodcock said. "I don't care to ask her anything. I don't care."

"Show me they're alive," Larry added. "The only thing that I care about is those two grandkids. We're here, I'll get on my knees, and I'll beg. Just give me JJ. That's all I want.

Read more: Idaho kids still missing after "multiple deaths with strange circumstances" as grandparents plead for their safe return - CBS News
 
Deadline for mom to produce missing Idaho children is Thursday
Posted: 6:16 AM, Jan 30, 2020
Updated: 7:17 AM, Jan 30, 2020

[...]

"There's nights we don't sleep. We just want to know what's happened. How does she go to sleep at night? How do you go to sleep?" Larry Woodcock, the children’s grandfather, said.

[...]

Deadline for mom to produce missing Idaho children is Thursday
 
Is there a specific time she is to produce the kids? Is it a court appointment or just by the end of the day?
 
I think police are keeping Tammy’s autopsy reports under wrap for multiple reasons. I sincerely hope they are building an airtight case against someone that is still alive to face the consequences. I know it “could” have been a natural death, but it makes much more sense that it wasn’t.

These kids are the latest victims of two people who are beyond selfish and crazy. I am sitting on the edge of my seat to see what happens today. I hope there is more than one arrest.
 
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