Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[JudgeJudi]

We know there is audio (Guys...Down the hill). We do not know, how much more video/ audio exists in totality.

-Nin

We don't know how much audio there is but in early 2017 you could only do one 10-second video on an iPhone. You could record audio for 30 minutes or perhaps longer depending on available storage.

Later that year you could record videos for 60 seconds.

This is how to record 60-second videos on Snapchat

 

[chaz]

I believe DC has said that exact thing. I can't find the interview right now, but I know I've seen him say that he thinks this person is scared but that they will protect them. Anyone have a link?

Either way, it could be stated more often.

It was at the one year anniversary.

13:20 mark

 

[TL4S]

It was at the one year anniversary.

13:20 mark

Thank you!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I agree 100% on the DNA stuff, DNA is not the be all and end all in a criminal case. I think a lot of people put value in what they see on TV shows and think it applies to real-world criminal investigations. If DNA were so valuable, and such a huge part of a lot of cases, a lot more cases would have been solved already in the last 20 years or so.

My hunch is LE in this case has to have someone, or some people, come forward and say they know BG, they know where he was or wasn't on 2.13.17, and maybe other reasons why they think they know the identity of the perp. The information has to be such that it holds up in court, imagine a case falling apart in court and the actual BG later files a lawsuit against Carroll County and various other parties over false incarceration and other legalities.

JMO

Agreed. DNA has been used to exonerate many convicted people now. One poor man served 38 years before DNA proved he was innocent, but I've never seen a case yet where DNA alone has successfully convicted someone. It is no longer considered to be sufficient proof that a particular person actually committed a crime.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

LE has made conflicting, vague, and confusing statements over the years, but I think LE has their reasons for this and I respect that. I'm trying to look at the whole picture in regards to LE's statements. For the time being, these are my beliefs (AJMO):

• BG does not look like either sketch, but might have elements of both. I think LE believes that the man who was seen by one or more people that day is BG.
• He's on the older end of the current age range.
• He parked at the CPS lot and walked the trails that day.
• He stalked them from the trail intersection to the bridge.
• He led them to the spot they were killed, but I don't know with certainty if he had control of both of them the entire way between the end of the bridge to cs.
• There is a gap between when the bridge video was taken and when the audio was recorded, but I don't know how long that was. Seconds? Minutes?
• There's some usable DNA

These are things I believe based only on personal thoughts:

• BG is familiar with the 300 rd area itself, and for a reason aside from the trails: work, farming, storage, home/property, friends/family, hunting/trapping grounds, fishing, etc.
• BG was already on that road for other reasons when he saw the girls dropped off. He parked at CPS and waited until KG drove past before getting on the trail.
• I don't really think this was planned as a fantasy kill, but more of an impulsive thing. I don't know why I think this.
• I think there was some kind of sexual element.
• I don't think the girls knew him.
• I think he might not have left via the trail system. I think he went north or south through the woods to get back to his vehicle. I just can't imagine him not being too wet, muddy, maybe bloody to risk taking the trail. Could be wrong.

I 100% agree with everything you have posted. My opinion, it was a crime of opportunity and there was a sexual assault. I believe he had a handgun which he used to control them, but it wasn't the method used to kill them as no one reported gunshots AFAIK. I also believe that there is/are family member/s who suspect him but are afraid to report him, possibly because of financial dependence.

 

[Falcon500]

Agreed. DNA has been used to exonerate many convicted people now. One poor man served 38 years before DNA proved he was innocent, but I've never seen a case yet where DNA alone has successfully convicted someone. It is no longer considered to be sufficient proof that a particular person actually committed a crime.

You’ve missed quite a few cases then. Where are you getting the information that DNA alone is not enough for conviction?

 

[Charlot123]

Thank you.

It sounds like there's some issue of who is related to whom here, and what matches. I wonder if there's some element of chimerism* going on? That could seriously interfere with a match, or make it difficult to eliminate some DNA from consideration.

*Human chimerism involves people carrying more than one set of DNA somewhere in their bodies, usually because some of a fetus's DNA lingers in the mother's blood after pregnancy, or vice versa. Also common with twins where one twin dies in utero and the other twin has some of the DNA of both. Also after bone marrow transplants. It's an area they're only beginning to study

Interestingly, I recently came across bone marrow donation. I never thought about DNA changes post-donation. But apparently, bone marrow recipient has totally different DNA in the BM, the blood, the saliva - because of WBC secretion. So regular saliva or cheek swabs won’t work. Nor would blood test.

Do I view the BM recipient as the hunter or the fisherman? No - after total body irradiation life changes for the person. But there may be some other things, stem cell injection, whatnot. I don’t know what could produce chimerism, but maybe it is more common now?

 

[sunshineray]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I think the killer could be older than 18 and not have a record.

There are for LE, ways of getting DNA answers but without legal sanction. ISP Carter just said in a recent interview how while collecting evidence LE must stay within the limits, the letter of the law. I do think LE has whittled down that two dozen suspects talked about last year to a solid handful or even one. AJMO

I think the DNA evidence is there just enough to help identify along with other "clues" but too weak to convict. There will be not arrest until a prosecutor says they can convict. I pray ii doesn't take years but fear it will. I would be so happy to be wrong.

 

[Charlot123]

You’ve missed quite a few cases then. Where are you getting the information that DNA alone is not enough for conviction?

Agree. DNA is like fingerprints. It is unique to the person.
“Someone left his fingerprints at the crime scene”. Would that be enough? Yes, unless the person can explain how his prints ended up there.

 

[Falling Down]

I think LE has dug a hole in trying to avoid saying, “yes, we have dna” and now begin to sound confused and boggled, all in an attempt to avoid talking about any sexual assault that may have taken place right from the start. If there had not been any such acts, I think they would have stated this right away. Instead we have three years of dna word salad (I hate that phrase but...) jmo. Their actions over the years clearly show they are trying to match dna to other criminals, etc...all jmo.

I agree 100%, yet people have still gone nuts over DNA in this case.

A killing or in this case a set of killings doesn't have to include a SA in order for there to be something sexual in nature in relation to the case. I didn't know until recent times that as a general rule, serial murders (and I'm not characterizing this case as one done by a serial killer, we just don't know), generally involve a sexual component or components. A killer could get off on the crime(s) committed with there being a SA committed, the immediate aftermath and get off on that w/o a SA having taken place, or just the aftermath, sometimes all the above.

I don't believe LE have usable DNA for BG.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

They said they didn't because, they weren't 100% sure, that they felt they couldn't ruin his life if they were wrong, etc.

This is it, I believe, in case of Abby and Libby. Many people know him, but have fear, they could be wrong. MOO Just as me.

 

[carbuff]

Interestingly, I recently came across bone marrow donation. I never thought about DNA changes post-donation. But apparently, bone marrow recipient has totally different DNA in the BM, the blood, the saliva - because of WBC secretion. So regular saliva or cheek swabs won’t work. Nor would blood test.

Do I view the BM recipient as the hunter or the fisherman? No - after total body irradiation life changes for the person. But there may be some other things, stem cell injection, whatnot. I don’t know what could produce chimerism, but maybe it is more common now?

I don't know whether it's becoming more common, or just that people, investigators especially, are becoming aware of it as a possible issue. Certainly bone marrow transplants are way more common than they used to be.

 

[Gumbeaux]

Tuned in to Down the Hill podcast by CNN, it is excellent. Great refresher if you are lost, or have forgotten key points in this long three years. Confirms that I love the humanity of Doug Carter, and I was impressed at the observations of the very young friends. Heart wrenching.

Also, YouTube has been intriguing recently. Anyhoo, Down the Hill podcast offers concise key points that you'd have to watch about 700 videos to collect the same "facts." Of course, facts in a crime are quite mutable.

This now-solemn Valentine's Day, and a Friday, seems an excellent day for an arrest.

 

[PezCandy]

We don't know how much audio there is but in early 2017 you could only do one 10-second video on an iPhone. You could record audio for 30 minutes or perhaps longer depending on available storage.

Later that year you could record videos for 60 seconds.

This is how to record 60-second videos on Snapchat

I seen a post up thread saying that the family was able to listen to “2 mins of audio” so would that be multiple videos??

 

[TL4S]

I seen a post up thread saying that the family was able to listen to “2 mins of audio” so would that be multiple videos??

I think that LE and family have both talked about there being audio from prior to the encounter with BG. Just the girls discussing regular stuff. Maybe that was part of the 2 min?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I seen a post up thread saying that the family was able to listen to “2 mins of audio” so would that be multiple videos??

I think that LE and family have both talked about there being audio from prior to the encounter with BG. Just the girls discussing regular stuff. Maybe that was part of the 2 min?

This article from March 2nd, 2017 that mentions the increased reward also discusses the audio clip.

Reward for Delphi teens’ murderer reaches $200,000, thanks to Indianapolis Colts owner and former punter

"Authorities uncovered a grainy photo of a man on Libby German’s phone, as well as a 6-minute audio clip of what appeared to a be man saying, “Down the hill,” which sparked massive amounts of tips and suggestions from the public."

I am not saying that the 6 minutes is accurate as it doesn't state the source of this information, but it certainly seems like a very specific time to be mentioned out of the blue without a source. It makes you wonder who the source could be.....

I really hope that 6 minutes is true.....it could mean that LE has much, much more than anyone ever thought there could be on audio. Enough to convict the right person hopefully.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

This article from March 2nd, 2017 that mentions the increased reward also discusses the audio clip.

Reward for Delphi teens’ murderer reaches $200,000, thanks to Indianapolis Colts owner and former punter

"Authorities uncovered a grainy photo of a man on Libby German’s phone, as well as a 6-minute audio clip of what appeared to a be man saying, “Down the hill,” which sparked massive amounts of tips and suggestions from the public."

I am not saying that the 6 minutes is accurate as it doesn't state the source of this information, but it certainly seems like a very specific time to be mentioned out of the blue without a source. It makes you wonder who the source could be.....

I really hope that 6 minutes is true.....it could mean that LE has much, much more than anyone ever thought there could be on audio. Enough to convict the right person hopefully.

JMO

Wow, I had never seen that before. Six minutes...

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

Yes, you can discuss the undergarments since approved podcasters have brought it up.

No, you cannot discuss suspects even if you use their initials.

It is one thing to discuss possible evidence but after what has happened on this thread before when people were discussing a certain person who has not been even hinted at as being the perp is a whole other situation.

Even using initials people will dig into their lives and we have no way of knowing if they are truly a suspect or not.

Please keep even initials of possible suspects off of this discussion.

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[NameUser]

bbm
Missy Bevers, Texas.

One should compare the eyes of the Swat Gear Perp and his gait and his stature with the BG. TX was in 2016 and 10 months before the murder of Abby and Libby, so the perp's weight would be different perhaps. The knee/leg-injury would perhaps be different (left or right side).
One should notice, that Swat Gear Perp and BG both are wearing a disguise. The perp had no problem with being pictured via surveillance camera or video camera (cell phone). The perp knew, no one would be able to recognize him 100%. The perp maybe someone, who has fun to dress up not only during a crime.
One should notice, that the Swat Gear Perp may have been drunk touring the floors in the church, just like the BG on the MHB also may have been drunk.
One should notice, it was a blitz attack in the Texas church, just like the attack in the MHB area on Abby and Libby may have been.
One should notice, that the perp in Texas exited very fast and in an unknown way, just like the BG in Delphi.
One should notice, that possibly the perp in each state had an accomplice, who helped with at least exiting the area.
So, we have another case, which is nearly cold, although a video exists, still pics, DNA (I think).
Perhaps Abby's and Libby's killer is the same man, who killed in 2016 a mother of two teenage girls (besides a little daughter, she had too).
MOO

Do they have his Voice? i don't recall.

 

[NameUser]

We don't know how much audio there is but in early 2017 you could only do one 10-second video on an iPhone. You could record audio for 30 minutes or perhaps longer depending on available storage.

Later that year you could record videos for 60 seconds.

This is how to record 60-second videos on Snapchat

The Video is not from snap chat, only the pictures. It could have recorded for as long as the phone had memory.