IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[neesaki]

This reminds of the Alford plea.

An Alford Plea is a guilty plea of a defendant who proclaims he is innocent of the crime, and admits that the prosecution has enough evidence to prove that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It is entered when an accused, together with his attorney, has made the calculated decision to plead guilty because the evidence against him is so strong that it will likely lead to conviction.

The Alford Plea: Guilty But Innocent

In other words the defendant knows he’s guilty, but claims he isn’t? That’s what this sounds like. Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a bunch of BS ?

 

[neesaki]

I know... it was a jest.

Could RCCL counter-sue, though ?
For defamation and slander ?
There weren't any safety violations.

And attorneys fees? Might be a little pocket change.

 

[justice4allnow]

Sentencing guidelines for being recklessly negligent to th point of killing an 18 month old baby should require prison time, IMO. So the probation seems quite lenient.

Neesaki, I could feel semi-ok with probation only and no jail time, if he would admit to the facts of the case, apologize thoroughly both in court and through media outlets, and do some form of restorative justice or restitution. What the restorative justice would look like, I'm not sure; maybe he could give public talks about basic rules of safety around windows, including not breaching safety railings, situational awareness, etc. Maybe restitution could involve volunteering in children's wards at hospitals (under close supervision, of course!) In any case, I hope that the judge really puts some thought into this, so that his period of probation provides something meaningful to society. And of course I would like to see the family drop the lawsuit too.

 

[neesaki]

Grandfather of toddler who died falling from cruise ship to plead guilty in her death

This was so predictable.
Winkleman makes it look like everything was his idea ...blah, blah, blah...
He brings up all the particulars of HI$ case going forward...blah$...blah$ ...blah$

Yes, now inserting himself into the criminal case as well. Not an attention seeking ego maniac is he.

 

[katydid23]

A cruise line is no place for a 2 year old except maybe Disney.

Whether SA was thrust with the duty of watching Chole or he volunteered, I don't know.

She appeared to be a charming sweet, curious baby and as 2 year olds like to do, they like to explore and run about with nothing holding her interest for long.

IMO he squatted down by the pillar to be at her level. She then toddled over to the wall of windows and he followed. He lifted her up to peer through the only open window. Was he careless how he handled her then, perhaps so. Did he do it in purpose, no way.

He had to be sedated as he was inconsolable. Was he negligent, possibly so.

But the family has lost a child. Their sweet baby girl.

I'd take the sentence and serve the 3 yrs. And RCCL should proceed with a minimal payout and limit the age of children who can cruise to 12. Nothing will bring their sweet daughter back.

The Corona virus is going to hit all the cruiselines hard. Time to get this out of the headlines and allow this family to grieve. No more lawsuits.

I haven't cruised RC in 6 years (I'm disappointed in how I've seen cleanliness and hospitality dwindle.)
And I won't be cruising with them anytime soon, either.

All just my opinion.

As to the bolded, why should RCCL make a payout? What did they do wrong in this case?

 

[neesaki]

Damn, the same day I say that Winkleman doesn't have anything to cause trouble/drama he sure as hell proves me wrong

Sam and the prosecutor may have come to an agreement, but that doesn't mean that the judge has to accept it. The judge could accept the guilty part and sentence him to jail time, or insist that he has to stand before the bench and tell them exactly what happened at that window before they agree to it. That's why there needs to be a hearing. This case won't be over till the judge says it is.

I suspect one of two things is going on with this sudden change in course. My first thought is this is being done because the family realized that there is some damning evidence the prosecution has and is trying to reduce the chance that 1) RCCL and 2) the public might get it. They know if this stuff gets out it's over, and if it goes to trial they're screwed. If they sacrifice him to a plea deal, none of this stuff has to see the light of day. And since Winkleman isn't party to the criminal case (though we all know the defense lawyer has been giving him stuff through his own filings ie: the doctors statement) he doesn't have to turn over any of that stuff if/when the civil case hits discovery.

My second thought is possible concerns of perjury? I'm wondering if their medical experts fell through and they can't find anyone willing to back the "colorblind" argument and that is literally the only excuse they had for why he possibly couldn't have known the window was open. And with no medical experts/documents to support the claim the lawyer can't just be throwing it out there.

JMO of course.

Not to mention that the video shows him with his head out the window... so there is that.

 

[al66pine]

Alford Plea?

In other words the defendant knows he’s guilty, but claims he isn’t? That’s what this sounds like. Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a bunch of BS ?

@neesaki This may help explain Alford plea - Wikipedia.

I don't know whether technically it is an Alford plea. IIUC, judge has to accept the his changed plea.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Just wondering if this plea would impact an insurance payout? If the family had in fact had traveler's insurance on Chloe before the cruise? Also wondering if the divorces are going to begin? I hope WHOEVER was involved in Chloe's death never has a moment's peace or a night's sleep again. Baby murderers go straight to the HOT PLACE.

BBM - I had that exact same thought when this news broke today. I just don’t have a clue what to expect next.

 

[katydid23]

Grandpa is getting a very sweet deal.
No jail time, NO ADMISSION OF GUILT, and he serves some kind of Nothing Burger Probation in Indiana.

The only good thing is they will be able to say he pled GUILTY when the Civil Case proceeds.

 

[neesaki]

Grandpa is getting a very sweet deal.
No jail time, NO ADMISSION OF GUILT, and he serves some kind of Nothing Burger Probation in Indiana.

The only good thing is they will be able to say he pled GUILTY when the Civil Case proceeds.

I truly am having a hard time accepting that PR is letting him off so easy, after all the denial and the lies, and still blaming the ship. If this is justice I honestly don’t know what to think of our legal system anymore.

 

[oviedo]

Grandfather of toddler who died falling from cruise ship to plead guilty to her death

An attorney for Salvatore Anello, grandfather of Chloe Wiegand, told NBC News paperwork was filed to change his plea in a deal to avoid jail time.

Here’s the thing / there was no way they could continue the negligence lawsuit with this hanging over it - IMO this plea may allow them to proceed but it’s tricky
JMO
Chloe gets no justice and this family may profit from this killing
JMO

 

[tara83]

It's nice to know you can get more time being caught with pot than tossing a baby out a window.Some justice.

 

[oviedo]

Not to mention that the video shows him with his head out the window... so there is that.

Exactly they do not want that real video which is super clear released to the public- imo the plea avoids that

 

[katydid23]

Exactly they do not want that real video which is super clear released to the public- imo the plea avoids that

It will come out in the civil case, won't it?

 

[oviedo]

Civil is different than criminal IMO -they can file a motion to seal - they do not want that authentic video played on their proprietary software released as it will be unmistakable that he threw her off jMO

 

[al66pine]

From Daily Mail: "The IT worker has consistently protested his innocence over 18-month-old Chloe's fatal plunge..." bbm Did reporter intend to convey that SA professed his innocence?* Not sure it that sentence conveyed reporter' intent.
Numerous ppl posting on this thread & MSM have protested his innocence. I think they're right.

* Yes, I know about "protesting-innocence" usage, probably in the OED, but still a pet peeve for me. Goodnight, from part-time grammar/usage police.

 

[BeachSky]

As to the bolded, why should RCCL make a payout? What did they do wrong in this case?

No blenders allowed at the juice bar just in case a toddler gets lifted up and puts her hand to the blade.
RCCL shame on you.

Insane!
MOO

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Here’s the thing / there was no way they could continue the negligence lawsuit with this hanging over it - IMO this plea may allow them to proceed but it’s tricky
JMO
Chloe gets no justice and this family may profit from this killing
JMO

Isn't that the American way though?

 

[Wehwalt]

Damn, the same day I say that Winkleman doesn't have anything to cause trouble/drama he sure as hell proves me wrong

Sam and the prosecutor may have come to an agreement, but that doesn't mean that the judge has to accept it. The judge could accept the guilty part and sentence him to jail time, or insist that he has to stand before the bench and tell them exactly what happened at that window before they agree to it. That's why there needs to be a hearing. This case won't be over till the judge says it is.
[snip]

I went to bed early last night and am still catching up on this. The above is likely correct, though again, Puerto Rico is its own thing. The following assumes that Puerto Rican authorities have agreed to probation. I haven't seen that stated by them.

If it's anything like standard US practice, SA will have to plead in open court. The judge can, and most likely will in such a prominent case, question him, on the subjects of whether the plea is knowing, voluntary, and intelligent. It is really up to the judge how far to go on this. It can be very pro forma, in, out, rubber stamp plea deal. But this circumstance of pleading guilty while not admitting to the allegations, I'm hoping will cause the judge to ask a few more searching questions like "What did you do to cause you to plead guilty?" and so forth. Very much depends on the judge, at least in the US. Puerto Rico may have its own ways.

The reason why he's not admitting to the allegations is almost certainly civil liability. RCCI could sue him or else join him in the current lawsuit as a third-party defendant, liable for anything they are liable for. That does not mean that successful plaintiffs would be out of luck, it just means that RCCI could try to recover any payout from him. If he's admitted to the allegations, that would make a civil defense very difficult.

As to whether the judge can put him in jail anyway, the papers say this is a "plea deal". The judge can accept or reject it, but if rejected the case would continue, possibly before a different judge. A "plea with a recommendation" doesn't bind the judge in any way.

 

[Seattle1]

Here’s the thing / there was no way they could continue the negligence lawsuit with this hanging over it - IMO this plea may allow them to proceed but it’s tricky
JMO
Chloe gets no justice and this family may profit from this killing
JMO

The parents of Chloe were under a calendar statute to file their WDLS but I expected that their trial would be delayed until after SA's criminal trial which was set to begin soon.

The primary reason to delay a WDLS until after a criminal trial is to subpoena the testimony of the party(s) in the criminal procedure who would clearly invoke their Fifth Amendment to remain silent for both depositions and trial if their criminal case was not over.

(We saw this with MT deposition on Dulos case).
(Also, Vanessa Bryant filed WDLS yesterday pursuant to same calendar statute).

MOO