Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Falling Down]

I'm only 7 minutes into part 5 of the podcast, so maybe more will be addressed on this, but one thing stood out. Ives said (paraphrasing) that his hope was that if this person commits another crime and gets caught, he'd admit to the Delphi murders because there were odd things at the crimes scene and these people generally liked to talk about the horrible things they'd done.

Which is how I figured he would be caught, and I thought so going back 2+ years ago.

This tells me LE is not close at all to solving this crime, they have no idea who did it and likely don't even know where to start to figure out who did it.

Which explains the multiple "one piece of information" comments from LE within the last year, that piece of information in my mind will be either intel from the public, or another attack or possibly another murder. That's been my fear for over two years, that most likely another crime will have to be committed before these murders are solved.

JMO

 

[TTF14]

Listening to latest episode of the “Down the Hill” podcast.

There’s a LOT going on in this episode, but it’s very late here, so I’m going to wait until the sun is up to attempt to make any sense of it.

All I gotta say now is holy moly...

It was a really great episode (episode 5). The best so far for those who have followed this case closely from the beginning. Some of my (highly paraphrased) takeaways from the interview with Mr. Ives:

- Lots of physical evidence, but not what most people are probably thinking. So does this mean no SA/no semen? The photos, video, voice obviously counts as physical evidence. What else?
- "At least" 3 "signatures" at the scene. There also was a good interview with an expert about what signatures are. Basically, signatures usually provide an emotional or sexual payoff.
- The closest cell tower - I can't tell from what he said whether or not a search warrant WAS obtained and if those records HAVE been gone through. He said there was no probable cause for a search warrant (search warrants aren't easy to get), so does that mean they were never able to get one?
- Ives would be surprised if they end up finding out they were lured there. He thinks it was just a coincidence.
- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.
- He's seen/heard all the video, but thinks the public probably thinks there's more there than actually is (I took this to mean the actual murder is not on video/audio).
- I still have no inkling about whether or not there is DNA or what type it might be if there is. He spent a couple of minutes talking about touch DNA and how difficult that is. Just the fact that they were school students would mean they'd have a lot of touch DNA on their clothing.
- No clear suspect for him. There are a handful that "could have" done it, and he talked about someone blathering on social media after the crime and said something like, "but it's not him....he's a minor anyway..." Sounds like Ives has ruled out the killer being a minor.

I'm sure some more will come to me.

 

[Falling Down]

It was a really great episode (episode 5). The best so far for those who have followed this case closely from the beginning. Some of my (highly paraphrased) takeaways from the interview with Mr. Ives:

- Lots of physical evidence, but not what most people are probably thinking. So does this mean no SA/no semen? The photos, video, voice obviously counts as physical evidence. What else?
- "At least" 3 "signatures" at the scene. There also was a good interview with an expert about what signatures are. Basically, signatures usually )an emotional or sexual payoff.
- The closest cell tower - I can't tell from what he said whether or not a search warrant WAS obtained and if those records HAVE been gone through. He said there was no probable cause for a search warrant (search warrants aren't easy to get), so does that mean they were never able to get one?
- Ives would be surprised if they end up finding out they were lured there. He thinks it was just a coincidence.
- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.
- He's seen/heard all the video, but thinks the public probably thinks there's more there than actually is (I took this to mean the actual murder is not on video/audio).
- I still have no inkling about whether or not there is DNA or what type it might be if there is. He spent a couple of minutes talking about touch DNA and how difficult that is. Just the fact that they were school students would mean they'd have a lot of touch DNA on their clothing.
- No clear suspect for him. There are a handful that "could have" done it, and he talked about someone blathering on social media after the crime and said something like, "but it's not him....he's a minor anyway..." Sounds like Ives has ruled out the killer being a minor.

I'm sure some more will come to me.

Key quote for me:

- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.

Since the beginning on my end I've ruled out a random person stumbling upon an old bridge way back in the woods. This just doesn't happen. BG knows the bridge, knows the area around it, and probably knows a lot about it.

That said, the highway went through there only in 2014.

Those changes and the fact that it simply is not a well-traveled area with consistently-updated GPS info made my GPS go flaky in 2017 when I was out there, when trying to find C.R. 300 and the turnoff from the highway. I bring this up again because I think BG is familiar enough with the bridge area to know how to get there on his own, with no assistance from asking locals or a guidance deal like GPS. Which tells me he had been there, possibly many times.

Just as a hypothetical, imagine this guy tells someone they're going somewhere for the day, or part of a day, but instead they would go to the MHB and not tell anyone about it, ever. I don't know what that could have been on a Monday in February in northern IN, but I kind of picture someone with a double life who lies to family members or intimate partners or even employers as to his whereabouts. Someone who knows the MHB and perhaps many other outdoors-type places in the region, but isn't up front with people in his life about going to those places.

JMO

nobody would really know it's there.

You have to know it's back in those woods. No official highway and road signs are nearby indicating anything is there.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

It was a really great episode (episode 5). The best so far for those who have followed this case closely from the beginning. Some of my (highly paraphrased) takeaways from the interview with Mr. Ives:

- Lots of physical evidence, but not what most people are probably thinking. So does this mean no SA/no semen? The photos, video, voice obviously counts as physical evidence. What else?
- "At least" 3 "signatures" at the scene. There also was a good interview with an expert about what signatures are. Basically, signatures usually provide an emotional or sexual payoff.
- The closest cell tower - I can't tell from what he said whether or not a search warrant WAS obtained and if those records HAVE been gone through. He said there was no probable cause for a search warrant (search warrants aren't easy to get), so does that mean they were never able to get one?
- Ives would be surprised if they end up finding out they were lured there. He thinks it was just a coincidence.
- Ives thinks it's someone local since the bridge isn't a famous landmark and nobody would really know it's there.
- He's seen/heard all the video, but thinks the public probably thinks there's more there than actually is (I took this to mean the actual murder is not on video/audio).
- I still have no inkling about whether or not there is DNA or what type it might be if there is. He spent a couple of minutes talking about touch DNA and how difficult that is. Just the fact that they were school students would mean they'd have a lot of touch DNA on their clothing.
- No clear suspect for him. There are a handful that "could have" done it, and he talked about someone blathering on social media after the crime and said something like, "but it's not him....he's a minor anyway..." Sounds like Ives has ruled out the killer being a minor.

I'm sure some more will come to me.

Excellent summary. I would include:

• There were lots and lots of FBI out there. More than any other case he'd worked.
• He doesn't think it was planned.
  
• He can't remember another "stranger" murder, as in committed by somebody who didn't know the victims.
  
• There were at least a couple signatures he'd predict might be seen again should BG kill in the future.
• Signatures are things done that are unnecessary for the crime itself.

 

[TL4S]

The idea that there were at least 3 signatures at the crime scene is very interesting because a "signature," as far as I understand it, is not just a clue left behind. It is indicative of something the killer does in order to fulfil a psychological or an emotional need. So something like "he shot them with a gun" would not be a signature (not that I think that's what happened in this case) but something like "after he killed them he covered their faces" might be. IMO this information moves all the theories that deal with a motivation for gain (that girls were killed for revenge, to silence them because they witnessed or knew about a crime, etc) way, way, WAY down the list of possibilities.

I've said this from the beginning but I believe this is a BTK type killer. Not sure if he a serial killer or ever will be but I think the fantasy of the crime is extremely important to him. The killing itself provided the sexual release for him and the memory of it probably continues to.

I had the same thought about moving revenge (etc.) killings to the bottom of the list. They were never that high to begin with, but this confirms it for me. Same with the catfishing idea. I think those things make us more "comfortable" with this murder, but the fact is, sometimes innocent people cross paths with evil, plain and simple.

 

[NameUser]

I understand the idea that only a local would really know the area to find this bridge

I also consider that if it was someone passing through, without a car, there are not a lot of means to cross the highway around the area with out using the freedom bridge, which leads directly to the Monan High trail that goes directly past the bridge. According to trail link the actual trail is much longer than just the area around the bridge.

JMO

 

[NameUser]

So I listened to the podcast. My understanding is that to solve the case all they need is for someone to get arrested for murdering someone else and then confess to these killings?

 

[watcher9]

I too wonder what the signatures could be? It must be something that was found or done to the victim that would be unusual to be found in a normal killing?
Here are some I was thinking of -

Type of rope or tied knot?
A symbol that he left on a tree or their bodies?
A cut off locket of hair?
An earring or ear cut off?
Certain type or color of zip ties?
A missing article of clothing (like a sock, shoelace or bra)?
A bullet in the forehead?
A "letter" carved on the body?
A certain object used to desecrate their bodies?
Maybe a red or black rose lying across their chests?

 

[Marzipan]

Who besides locals might know Delphi? Truckers of course. I also just randomly googled “best motorcycling roads Indiana Delphi“ and found several mentions of the area, not the bridges so much of course, but Bicycle Bridge Road. Some motorcycling aficionados seem to know and like the town.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I was able to listen to the first half of Episode 5 of the “Down the Hill” podcast and pull some of what I thought to be the main points. I will add a *** to any of the points I feel have added importance/reveal something potentially. Obviously JMO.

Robert Ives, prosecuting attorney for Carroll County until 2017 when he retired, was interviewed—

When asked what was “odd” about the crime scene, he describes it as “not your normal a ‘person was killed here’ crime scene.”

Ives also said there was a lot of physical evidence at the crime scene, but not what you would imagine.

There were at least 3 signatures at the crime scene.

Ives suspects someone local based on the fact that the bridge and trails are an unlikely place to be.
He also believes the murder is random, and SK not ruled out.

He believes it will be solved because the scene was so odd and unusual that he suspects the killer will be compelled to speak about it OR will commit another crime and confess to get fame or make some kind of deal.

Ives says he is not an expert on the investigation of serial killers.

He says there is a chance 1 or 2 things might pop up in another murder.

Explains there is only so much you can do with the still image, given that it was taken from a cell phone recording.

He says there is less additional information than people may think.***

The next interview is with Mary Ellen O’Toole, who has 20 years experience in the BAU—

Defines signature behavior at a crime scene as going over and beyond what is necessary to complete the crime. Generally it is behavior that is satisfying to the offender, and the offender will generally attempt to repeat the signature behavior, not the MO, because the signature behavior is why he is committing the crime in the first place.***

She says multiple signatures generally indicate a series of crimes. In this case, we have a double homicide—whether or not he committed other crimes unclear.

Signature can happen before, during, or after crime. An example of signature behavior before the crime would be predatory behavior.***

Hosts ask about what an “odd” crime scene might mean. MEO says that she doesn’t know what Ives definition of “odd” is, but she lists aspects of the scene that might be considered odd, such as redressing, placement of bodies, etc.

MEO explains the difference between staging and postmortem activity. Staging is when the offender makes the crime look like something it’s not in order to point investigators in a different direction. Staging tends to be done most often with a person who knows the victims. Postmortem activity is when the killer conducts postmortem activities for his own gratification.
The hosts make clear that MEO is speaking in general, not using examples from the Delphi case.***

The hosts reach out to ISP regarding the signatures, and ISP says they will not make comments about what was/was not found at crime scene.



I’ll post what I took from the last part of the episode later.

ETA: Just saw that other people have covered the rest of this episode well, so I won’t bother posting the rest of my observations.

 

[zencompass]

So I listened to the podcast. My understanding is that to solve the case all they need is for someone to get arrested for murdering someone else and then confess to these killings?

Or perhaps for the F.B.I. to discover a previous murder(s) where the same 3 signatures were left by the perpetrator?

ETA: But then, there could be dozens with the same 3 - but maybe not.

JMO

 

[NameUser]

Or perhaps for the F.B.I. to discover a previous murder(s) where the same 3 signatures were left by the perpetrator?

JMO

I would be interested to know how much they(LE) are sharing with law enforcement around the country. Is it even an option that another crime in another state can be linked to this case by "signature" items or things.

I think there could already to connections out there and that there is a needle in a haystack chance of actually connecting them due to lack of communication. I hope this is not the case and that it can be solved quickly, but have read it in cases before that working between departments can be tricky.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Hey all. I wondered if I could ask a favor. There are sooo many posts and threads in the case, it's hard to navigate. We are working on one as well, the cold case Asenath Dukat who was killed in Upper Arlington, Ohio in 1980 (www.longwalkhomeua.com), there is also a thread for it on WS. So the favor, is there anyway to get a quick summary of what's known beyond the sketch, photo and voice? We know the bodies were in a culvert and a black Nike shoe was found first, is there anything else that can be shared? Thank you all!

I am not sure if this will help you at all, but starting at around 18 minutes into this video, you get a really good indication of the terrain and area where they were found if you wish to compare this aspect between the two crimes.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

 

[zencompass]

I would be interested to know how much they(LE) are sharing with law enforcement around the country. Is it even an option that another crime in another state can be linked to this case by "signature" items or things.

I think there could already to connections out there and that there is a needle in a haystack chance of actually connecting them due to lack of communication. I hope this is not the case and that it can be solved quickly, but have read it in cases before that working between departments can be tricky.

Dear @NameUser,

Great post!

I absolutely agree with your post because I feel that there is always quite a bit of police work involved that doesn't involve computers.

Not every murder nor the details of them are on a main computer, especially as F.B.I. would not have necessarily been involved in a lot of them.

Lack of communication must be a major hindrance in many cases.


JMO

 

[dotr]

2013
Serial Killer Signatures
''Signatures can be the result of a psychological deviance, but some are just for effect. Some offenders have posed a corpse in a provocative sexual position, carved something on a body, inserted items, or taken a souvenir. It’s thought that signatures originate with personality factors rather than arising from what’s needed to complete a murder.

Signature analysis has not been subjected to many systematic studies, and so a myth has arisen that signatures always present in the same way. In fact, as many as fifty percent of offenders have admitted that they experiment with their rituals. A primal compulsion might drive them, but different victims and different situations present new opportunities to tinker.

An offender might position a body for humiliating exposure, bite a victim in a specific manner, cover the face, wash the victim’s hair, or tie ligatures with an unusual knot. A serial killer in India left beer cans next to victims, while in Greece, another killer stabbed each of four elderly prostitutes exactly four times in the neck. A German killer usually left slanted parallel stab wounds, which helped to link his victims.

Here are some series with glaringly obvious signatures:

Between 1990 and 1991, three prostitutes were murdered in Texas. At autopsy, it became clear that their eyes had been skillfully removed. A tip from a woman who’d gotten away from a brutal john led to 57-year-old Charles Albright.''

In Poland, young blond women were being disemboweled, mostly during public holidays, and the “Red Spider” wrote cryptic letters to police in spidery red ink, revealing where bodies could be found. He challenged them to catch him.

They did, thanks to an analysis of the ink that showed it was artist’s paint. Two victims (sisters) had been members of an art club. This lead implicated Lucien Staniak, 26, a government translator and an artist who’d once depicted a mutilated woman.''

 

[tresir2012]

I remember, that within the first days it was said, they had found "biological" evidence and because of the terrain/conditions I immediately thought of human feces. The link (to this one sentence) doesn't exist any more since 2017. Why do we have never heard of the term "biological evidence" again, I wonder .....

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uspect_with_a_Crime_Scene_Report_of_Two_Cases

Could there have been animal remains also in the area? Did RL or anyone hunt or shoot over that land.

 

[sunshineray]

You do seem to be criticizing the team's decisions as not being enough, jmo...

It stayed above freezing that night. Without evidence of foul play or injury, LE simply is not going to act immediately as if it is a factor. There is a process of escalating search efforts, just as with any group of law enforcement, e.g. you don't call out the whole fire station for every initial report of a fire.

I'll tell you one thing I strongly feel. I can't see criticizing the families at all for organizing their own continued searching through the night. I personally would have felt abandoned by my local law enforcement if it was my child missing, in the dark, in the cold, possibly hurt and in need of help. It was enough "evidence", just the fact they were gone. LE not being out there in force at the crack of dawn also would have made me feel quite abandoned by them. AJMO and I'm by no means a critic of LE in general.

 

[tresir2012]

I would be interested to know how much they(LE) are sharing with law enforcement around the country. Is it even an option that another crime in another state can be linked to this case by "signature" items or things.

I think there could already to connections out there and that there is a needle in a haystack chance of actually connecting them due to lack of communication. I hope this is not the case and that it can be solved quickly, but have read it in cases before that working between departments can be tricky.

Going by the case in Colorado that had similarities, I believe they must have shared some of the specifics eg. weapon, how the bodies were left or hidden, time of day of attack, near a creek and trail system etc.

 

[NameUser]

Just saw this company in the news for getting hacked. They use facial recognition to solve crimes. I hope LE has run that grainy photo through this system

Clearview

 

[tresir2012]

So I listened to the podcast. My understanding is that to solve the case all they need is for someone to get arrested for murdering someone else and then confess to these killings?

It would be good if he could be caught before that happens though. What if he has killed before or after these murders already and they just haven't matched it yet? If there is DNA, why do they even need a confession?