Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Thelastleg]

Listening to latest episode of the “Down the Hill” podcast.

There’s a LOT going on in this episode, but it’s very late here, so I’m going to wait until the sun is up to attempt to make any sense of it.

All I gotta say now is holy moly...

Just started listening to the podcasts. At the end of episode 2 kelsie states that she told Libby to make sure she had a ride home and Libby called her dad. In a previous interview it was said Libby rang her Dad at the trailhead while Kelsie was on the phone. She said if Libby didn't have a ride she would have brought them Jhome again. Discussed post #668. Tresir2019. May be insignificant but there are a lot of discrepancies in these online interviews. Not accusing of anyone being deliberately misleading but it leaves me questioning how reliable the information is. Just an observation.

 

[Gumbeaux]

I listed to episode 5 of Down the Hill podcast, and like all of you was a bit floored at the discussion of 2 or 3 signatures at the crime scene.

I still feel this was a local, and that this crime was personal to at least one of the victims (perhaps as retribution against family, not the girls). Could it be that this would have been a more “ordinary” murder (how sad to say that) — but the perpetrator added in some, ah, flourishes to make it appear as though it were a random serial killer? In other words, to cast suspicion far further than the surrounds of Carroll County?

 

[Brazenkane]

I think signatures suggest intelligence, and obsession. I personally think it wasn’t drug revenge related or anger induced. I also think small town drug dealers would think targeting kids for revenge is going too far.

I keep changing my mind on whether it was targeted or not. How would he know they would be there? Why increase the risk of targeting two? Why not give up if he lost control quickly if they made a break for it across the creek?

When did Ives leave the case? He may not have been involved in the dramatic change in direction of the investigation last year with the younger sketch

 

[BNA]

Just started listening to the podcasts. At the end of episode 2 kelsie states that she told Libby to make sure she had a ride home and Libby called her dad. In a previous interview it was said Libby rang her Dad at the trailhead while Kelsie was on the phone. She said if Libby didn't have a ride she would have brought them Jhome again. Discussed post #668. Tresir2019. May be insignificant but there are a lot of discrepancies in these online interviews. Not accusing of anyone being deliberately misleading but it leaves me questioning how reliable the information is. Just an observation.

Does not seem insignificant to me.

 

[Heaven Leigh]

This case just continues to baffle my mind. How in the world is this guy not caught yet?

I so agree.
The same for Lyric and Lizzie. With both of these being rare crimes, it's hard to believe.

 

[Laura60]

I too wonder what the signatures could be? It must be something that was found or done to the victim that would be unusual to be found in a normal killing?
Here are some I was thinking of -

Type of rope or tied knot?
A symbol that he left on a tree or their bodies?
A cut off locket of hair?
An earring or ear cut off?
Certain type or color of zip ties?
A missing article of clothing (like a sock, shoelace or bra)?
A bullet in the forehead?
A "letter" carved on the body?
A certain object used to desecrate their bodies?
Maybe a red or black rose lying across their chests?

Maybe a ritual cleansing from creek, or posed

 

[Charlot123]

True, he was on foot but he may have been in a car when he saw the girls being dropped off. If this is the case, he would have been on foot to follow them out of necessity.

If both cases were crimes of opportunity, then he would have to adapt. In Evansdale, the girls' bikes were found at the place where he took them. In this case, it would have been more difficult to take them without drawing attention.

Also, the fact that both cases involve a "pair", I think is significant considering the proximity and the rarity of a double murder like both of these cases. I also can't discount the billboards.

I read a VERY detailed blog about the Evansdale murders and I now lean more toward there being a connection than not.

I still believe that logically, there is a higher chance for the matching Delphi and Evansdale murders to be a coincidence. Maybe, there are more predators and perverts than we think. Unless these is some similarity in the details of the cases, but we don’t know it.

Imagine this. Evansdale case happening in NY. Same story, but no geographic proximity. Would we even consider the same killer?

 

[Charlot123]

I listed to episode 5 of Down the Hill podcast, and like all of you was a bit floored at the discussion of 2 or 3 signatures at the crime scene.

I still feel this was a local, and that this crime was personal to at least one of the victims (perhaps as retribution against family, not the girls). Could it be that this would have been a more “ordinary” murder (how sad to say that) — but the perpetrator added in some, ah, flourishes to make it appear as though it were a random serial killer? In other words, to cast suspicion far further than the surrounds of Carroll County?

I agree. I think the motive was not sexual. The murders are too...businesslike. Saw the girls. In 20 minutes, everything was done. No DNA. Left three business cards.

Clearly a very smart, logical, systematic-thinking, predator.

The rest of the story resembles Murders on Rue Morgue. You remember, horrible, senseless, murders committed by a monkey?

I wonder if the guy had a monkey, or someone else, maybe low-IQ or high as a kite, whom he allowed to finish the rest?

 

[Falling Down]

I totally agree. It all could have happened too quickly for the girls to react, especially with no real options on where to go and/or if he immediately pulled a gun. That said, the family has commented that the girls were discussing where they could go during the bridge video. They clearly didn't want to interact with him. That's why I can't completely dismiss the idea of them going below the bridge to avoid him. 60 feet is not right on top of them, it might have given them a short time to walk away from the end of the bridge before he got there. Either way, he had them pinned and they really didn't have a way out.

They were pinned. Just makes me sad that they literally could have walked down the hill/embankment, and then quickly over to where Abby lived. They didn't know where the road under the bridge led to going the other way from the private property at the end of it.

 

[Falling Down]

Maybe a ritual cleansing from creek, or posed

I've sleuthed hundreds of unsolved cases in rural areas from this region of the country, since these murders. Not one involved a creek, none that I'm aware of. All of them involving trails and parks. It really is an odd case, and I can kind of see why LE are insistent on the guy being local. I'm torn on that issue, local to the general area, or he's done work in the area before or maybe even continues to work there periodically.

This guy went through a lot of trouble to do what he did, I know I keep stating such but that's where I'm at right now. The creek part is yet another twist in the case that makes it special.

JMO

 

[Brazenkane]

the fact that there were two victims suggests to me he has a very low opinion of females. To take on both, he had to be confident and smug

So its someone sure of himself, probably someone in good shape to have that level of confidence. Someone with a grudge against females or a low opinion of them. Probably charming and manipulative if you couple that confidence with the very little audio we have.

After listening to the latest podcast I’m starting to think the girls made a break for it across the freezing creek (which is incredibly brave and clever). He didn’t lead them to there, as the crime scene was in view of a house

Any other skittish criminal would of hightailed it out of there as soon as the girls crossed the freezing water, but no way BG was going to let two young girls win.

 

[Falling Down]

the fact that there were two victims suggests to me he has a very low opinion of females. To take on both, he had to be confident and smug

So its someone sure of himself, probably someone in good shape to have that level of confidence. Someone with a grudge against females or a low opinion of them. Probably charming and manipulative if you couple that confidence with the very little audio we have.

After listening to the latest podcast I’m starting to think the girls made a break for it across the freezing creek (which is incredibly brave and clever). He didn’t lead them to there, as the crime scene was in view of a house

Any other skittish criminal would of hightailed it out of there as soon as the girls crossed the freezing water, but no way BG was going to let two young girls win.

Good post, well thought out, and thought-provoking.

 

[Ozoner]

the fact that there were two victims suggests to me he has a very low opinion of females. To take on both, he had to be confident and smug

So its someone sure of himself, probably someone in good shape to have that level of confidence. Someone with a grudge against females or a low opinion of them. Probably charming and manipulative if you couple that confidence with the very little audio we have.

After listening to the latest podcast I’m starting to think the girls made a break for it across the freezing creek (which is incredibly brave and clever). He didn’t lead them to there, as the crime scene was in view of a house

Any other skittish criminal would of hightailed it out of there as soon as the girls crossed the freezing water, but no way BG was going to let two young girls win.

Very possible. The assumption that BG is a local is based in no small part on the idea that he led the girls to the spot where they were killed. If he chased them there, then the assumption that he must be a local goes out the window.

 

[Barbieshell]

Still don't think he's a local - they would have had him by now IMHO. What really bothers me most about this case is that the evil *advertiser censored* got right up to the girls, will have realised they were children and still went ahead with his murderous act. That to me makes me think he must have done something really bad prior to this.
I've read about all I can on the Delphi Murders of Abby and Libby, my heart breaks for their families and I just hope there will be justice soon. 3 years is a long time for this piece of *advertiser censored* to be still living his life, he doesn't deserve to . If he's not in jail or dead he can do this again, and he probably will.
I just wish they'd ran straight ahead past that cordon / red metal gate thing onto private property, but the girls obviously froze in fear when he whipped the weapon out. I think they did try and make a break for it across the creek (after going "down the hill") but he probably caught up to 1 (when she lost her shoe) and shouted the other back whilst having a gun pointing at the accosted ones head (she wouldn't leave her friend bless her). There will have been shouting / screaming, it's just a shame there were no witnesses near enough to hear anything or help the girls (apparently you could see the area they were killed from the bridge itself).
They were certainly in the wrong place at the wrong time, fate dealt the girls the very worst possible hand that day . Please let this fella be caught soon, let today be THE DAY.

 

[tresir2012]

Interesting! Was this in the movie The Shack?

No I don't think so but it is just a thought. A father would likely protect a son and it could explain the two sketches and the "participated in" comment.
AJMO.

 

[tresir2012]

It is possible that they got a tower dump and narrowed it down to 25 phones. It may now be difficult to get search warrants for all 25 phones to check their location history. It is also highly possible like you said that there may be some high profile phone number in it too.
Privacy laws are still evolving so it could be Judges are very cautious on granting search warrants for such information as they might violate fourth amendment protections.
I was reading this case it is interesting.
Supreme Court Rules Police Need a Warrant to Track Cellphones

That case looks like it was because LE did not get a warrant to get the data. Getting a probable cause warrant for a tower dump in a brutal double murder of two children would have been no problem surely? They must have done that didn't they?
Then to get the individual warrants after first checking off those phones of the people known to be at the trails that day. I cannot see a judge refusing this, I hope.

IMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Perhaps he carried some items with him that day - bulky jacket - and then left some at the CS..For some reason the image of a prosthetic leg keeps popping up in my head...wild imagination than anything of course. Oh boy..

ALL IMO

-Nin

Stranger things have possibly happened, yet I don't know when. LOL.

 

[tresir2012]

Call me confused but I was just listening to the Megphone podcast. Part5 Delphi Evidence.

https://cms.megaphone.fm/channel/sceneofthecrime?selected=HIM3571104404
At 12:50 minutes it says:

"Robert Ives told us that he personally submitted multiple subpoenas seeking to obtain all celphone records within a five mile radius that day to determine who was in the area on the 13th. All owners of celphone that pinged in the area of the bridge that day were contacted regarding their activities and wther they'd seen anything. Investigators looked particularly closely at anyone who's phone records showed that they were newly in the area or spend several hours there during the time in question."

Well that's great news. Did they get their DNA?

 

[tresir2012]

One similarity that bothers me between the Delphi and Evansdale cases is crime scene proximity to a major highway system.

There's Interstate 380/hwy 20 directly south of Meyer's Lake in Evansdale, and the Hoosier Heartland Highway just west of the Monon High Bridge Trail. I know the Evansdale girls were moved to another location, but if it's a SK, and that was his first murder, maybe by the time he got to Delphi he didn't want the hassle or risk of transporting.

Anyway, it's probably not significant, but when I look at the maps, that's the first thing that stands out. It makes me wonder about the side roads around and under those major highways, too. Someone traveling a regular route, for whatever reason, and it involves taking exits on and off those highways routinely, and he happens to see girls alone in wooded areas...

Also of note, there's a waterway (Cedar River - IA, Deer Creek - IN) nearby in both cases, along with park grounds, bridges that cross the waterway, and nature trails.

Truck drivers. I cannot believe there were only 25 phone numbers in the area if the truck drivers at Packers and Andersons and Dairy Queen plus other companies were also in the mix. Something doesn't seem right here if the population of Delphi is 3,000 alone.

 

[tresir2012]

I don't believe that is legal. I think you have to have a search warrant for AN INDIVIDUAL to get data on what towers that person pinged. At least, that is the way the law was years ago.

Have you got a link whether a tower dump is legal? It does now sound like maybe Ives (or FBI) did that. MOO