TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5

[Ozoner]

I've been following this fascinating case for quite a while. It's difficult to get a real handle on what is fact, what is conjecture and what is theory. Even dated articles from newspapers have conflicting information. Information that should be concrete and verified.

I have some questions.

Did Rachel look a lot like her sister?

The Arnold's owned a transmission shop. Who were the mechanics that worked there? Did they deal in motorcycle parts? Did they have business dealings with other vehicle repair shops?

Why is it thought that the 3 girls drove to the top level of the parking garage? If art imitates life, suspects in crime usually park a car as far away from the entrance they can.

Bikers have been mentioned. What clubs? Bandidos, Ghost Riders, Banshees? There was lots of criminal activity in the early 70s in Fort Worth regarding bikers; rival gangs, strip clubs, shootings, theft of property. Retaliation.

This question is for the insiders here. The car they were driving was a really big, flashy car. Was it a two door or four? Would you say the car stood out? That people familiar with your family would recognize it as yours?

I can answer one of your questions. There is no "parking garage," just a network of parking lots around the mall. The car was parked in a fairly remote lot referred to as the "Sears upper lot." No one saw who parked the car there. I personally doubt whether it was the girls.

 

[Valiant]

This question is for the insiders here. The car they were driving was a really big, flashy car. Was it a two door or four? Would you say the car stood out? That people familiar with your family would recognize it as yours?

I would not consider a 1972 Oldsmobile 98 a "flashy" car. Oldsmobile was known as a slightly upscale car and the intended market was older, upper-middle class people. Maybe a bit plusher than a Chevy or a Ford, but flashy was not Oldsmobile's style. It makes perfect sense as a car that Tommy's elderly parents would have owned. I believe, though I can't confirm, that it was a 4 door.

Nor was the Oldsmobile that large by the standards back then. Full size cars from Chevrolet, Ford, Buick, Chrysler, etc. were all similar in size.

In my opinion, the only thing odd is young people driving an "old person's" car.

 

[branmuffin]

I would not consider a 1972 Oldsmobile 98 a "flashy" car. Oldsmobile was known as a slightly upscale car and the intended market was older, upper-middle class people. Maybe a bit plusher than a Chevy or a Ford, but flashy was not Oldsmobile's style. It makes perfect sense as a car that Tommy's elderly parents would have owned. I believe, though I can't confirm, that it was a 4 door.

Nor was the Oldsmobile that large by the standards back then. Full size cars from Chevrolet, Ford, Buick, Chrysler, etc. were all similar in size.

In my opinion, the only thing odd is young people driving an "old person's" car.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:
Oldsmobile built its biggest full-size car in 1971 although wheelbase was unchanged from 1970. The Ninety-Eights were the roomiest Oldsmobiles ever built thanks to the new GM full-size bodies which, at 64.3" front shoulder room and 63.4" rear shoulder room, set a record for interior width that would not be matched by any car until the full-size GM rear-wheel drive models of the early to mid-1990s.

Edited to add: The 98 shared its General Motors C-body platform with Buick and Cadillac.

 

[branmuffin]

I can answer one of your questions. There is no "parking garage," just a network of parking lots around the mall. The car was parked in a fairly remote lot referred to as the "Sears upper lot." No one saw who parked the car there. I personally doubt whether it was the girls.

I don't think it was the girls, either.

 

[Valiant]

Oldsmobile built its biggest full-size car in 1971 although wheelbase was unchanged from 1970. The Ninety-Eights were the roomiest Oldsmobiles ever built thanks to the new GM full-size bodies which, at 64.3" front shoulder room and 63.4" rear shoulder room, set a record for interior width that would not be matched by any car until the full-size GM rear-wheel drive models of the early to mid-1990s.

Yes, but comparing to another contemporary "old person's" car, the dimensions are very similar.
Length: 1972 Olds 98: 223", 1972 Chrysler New Yorker 225"
Width: Old 80", Chrysler 79.5"
The Oldsmobile was a big car, but there were lots of big cars around back then.

 

[branmuffin]

Yes, but comparing to another contemporary "old person's" car, the dimensions are very similar.
Length: 1972 Olds 98: 223", 1972 Chrysler New Yorker 225"
Width: Old 80", Chrysler 79.5"
The Oldsmobile was a big car, but there were lots of big cars around back then.

I'm in complete agreement with you. And everyone of those cars that you just mentioned maybe have been an "old person's" car but it's a fact that there is a cliche of old people driving huge boat-sized cars that are in the upper level of comfort, luxury, and class. So I guess I answered my own question. That classic car catalogs identify the 1972 Olds 98 as a luxury vehicle.

 

[Valiant]

I'm in complete agreement with you. And everyone of those cars that you just mentioned maybe have been an "old person's" car but it's a fact that there is a cliche of old people driving huge boat-sized cars that are in the upper level of comfort, luxury, and class. So I guess I answered my own question. That classic car catalogs identify the 1972 Olds 98 as a luxury vehicle.

Yes, sort of an "entry level" luxury. GM wanted its customers to move up the chain as they got more money, from the more basic Chevrolet/Pontiac to the nicer Oldsmobile/Buick to the top of the Cadillac.
Someone who owned a new car like this Old 98 back then had "made it".
To go back and clarify my comment to your first comment on the car, I'd call this Oldsmobile 98 "flashy" on the inside, but conservatively styled outside.

 

[SAMS]

I would not consider a 1972 Oldsmobile 98 a "flashy" car. Oldsmobile was known as a slightly upscale car and the intended market was older, upper-middle class people. Maybe a bit plusher than a Chevy or a Ford, but flashy was not Oldsmobile's style. It makes perfect sense as a car that Tommy's elderly parents would have owned. I believe, though I can't confirm, that it was a 4 door.

Nor was the Oldsmobile that large by the standards back then. Full size cars from Chevrolet, Ford, Buick, Chrysler, etc. were all similar in size.

In my opinion, the only thing odd is young people driving an "old person's" car.

Back then driving a late model car was not odd IMO. MOO

 

[johnbelt]

I've been following this fascinating case for quite a while. It's difficult to get a real handle on what is fact, what is conjecture and what is theory. Even dated articles from newspapers have conflicting information. Information that should be concrete and verified.

I have some questions.

Did Rachel look a lot like her sister?

The Arnold's owned a transmission shop. Who were the mechanics that worked there? Did they deal in motorcycle parts? Did they have business dealings with other vehicle repair shops?

Why is it thought that the 3 girls drove to the top level of the parking garage? If art imitates life, suspects in crime usually park a car as far away from the entrance they can.

Bikers have been mentioned. What clubs? Bandidos, Ghost Riders, Banshees? There was lots of criminal activity in the early 70s in Fort Worth regarding bikers; rival gangs, strip clubs, shootings, theft of property. Retaliation.

This question is for the insiders here. The car they were driving was a really big, flashy car. Was it a two door or four? Would you say the car stood out? That people familiar with your family would recognize it as yours?

I posted a picture of Rachel at the time she went missing.I haven't seen a picture of her sister at that time.Cotton Arnold actually owned two transmission shops.I'm not sure if both were in business at the time the girls disappeared.Surely there was other employees other than Tommy and the secretary.I haven't heard anything about motorcycle parts but Cotton,Tommy and several friends of Cottons raced cars.I posted the view from where the girls car was parked it seemed a good distance from any entrance.I'm not sure if there was a parking garage it looks like an open parking lot.Bikers is something we have really dug deep into and something I wouldn't rule out but as for the initial abduction they went with someone they trusted IMO.I wouldn't think the car stood out.

 

[johnbelt]

Here is the car.

 

[branmuffin]

I posted a picture of Rachel at the time she went missing.I haven't seen a picture of her sister at that time.Cotton Arnold actually owned two transmission shops.I'm not sure if both were in business at the time the girls disappeared.Surely there was other employees other than Tommy and the secretary.I haven't heard anything about motorcycle parts but Cotton,Tommy and several friends of Cottons raced cars.I posted the view from where the girls car was parked it seemed a good distance from any entrance.I'm not sure if there was a parking garage it looks like an open parking lot.Bikers is something we have really dug deep into and something I wouldn't rule out but as for the initial abduction they went with someone they trusted IMO.I wouldn't think the car stood out.

I think I was mislead by the description of the location the car was found as the upper lot.

I've always wondered whether there were striking similarities between Rachel and Debra physical appearance. I've found no photos of Debra. I haven't seen any yearbooks uploaded onto the internet from the schools they attended which is odd in this day and age what with FB and Classmates.com. I know Rachel attended Southwest High School but not where DA went.

I've been meaning to ask you about your suggestion that one of the presents found in the back of the car was brought from home. Why do you think that? Have the items left in the car been logged?

I think the first story after the girls first went missing is probably the closest to the truth as certain people have told many different versions through the years.This article is accurate because I know the cashier at the retail store did speak to the girls that day and 8:30 sounds about right for the time Mr.Wilson went to the mall to look for them.Rachel was reported missing at 12:30AM by her sister.Neither of her parents made an appearance at the mall that night.View attachment 229916

Is that a clerk from the Army Navy Store?

No i didn't request them at all.I did some sleuthing like I said with others and started questioning all the inconsistencies in all the articles.I got enough info to make people think and joined that FB group for a few hours until I was booted out but I ended up with 33 new friends including family members I've talked to a lot of people about the case.I don't think FWPD is real cooperative with people asking for info on the case.

Is the FB page overseen by relatives of the missing girls?

 

[johnbelt]

I think I was mislead by the description of the location the car was found as the upper lot.

I've always wondered whether there were striking similarities between Rachel and Debra physical appearance. I've found no photos of Debra. I haven't seen any yearbooks uploaded onto the internet from the schools they attended which is odd in this day and age what with FB and Classmates.com. I know Rachel attended Southwest High School but not where DA went.

I've been meaning to ask you about your suggestion that one of the presents found in the back of the car was brought from home. Why do you think that? Have the items left in the car been logged?



Is that a clerk from the Army Navy Store?



Is the FB page overseen by relatives of the missing girls?

I thought the same at first with the term upper lot.Yes the only present was a gift Rachel was taking to the party that evening at her parent's neighbor's house.I think it was for Shawn.This has been verified numerous times by the person who found the car but somehow it seems every new story or podcast goes back to the false narrative they had done a bunch of shopping.Yes the Army/Navy clerk is the most solid witness.We know the lay away was picked up.The facebook was ran from a lady in the Northeast but Rachel's brother controlled what could be posted there and any media on the case.That page was shut down due to skepticism in fund-raising.The brother then started a new page.The thing that really bothered me about Nancy Grace's podcast Is Mr.Wilson doesn't get a chance like that ever and he has a lot to say also Julie's mom's sister a lady who I have talked with on the phone with a couple times was there and she lived it and has talked to the detectives numerous times.Unlike a woman who has changed her story numerous times and a guy who was a 11 years old at the time but tries to block anybody from the other families talking anywhere.

 

[branmuffin]

Rachel's family has always controlled the narrative of this story.

 

[Valiant]

I can think of three reasons the car was parked a good distance from the entrance. I guess it could be any of these theories:
1) The mall was busy as it was the the pre-Christmas shopping rush. by the time they arrived, they may not have been able to get any closer.
2) Rachel was uncomfortable driving and especially parking such a large car and chose to park where there were fewer other cars to make parking easier.
3) Someone else parked the car and wanted to reduce their chances of being seen parking the car.

 

[snakefinger]

I can think of three reasons the car was parked a good distance from the entrance. I guess it could be any of these theories:
1) The mall was busy as it was the the pre-Christmas shopping rush. by the time they arrived, they may not have been able to get any closer.
2) Rachel was uncomfortable driving and especially parking such a large car and chose to park where there were fewer other cars to make parking easier.
3) Someone else parked the car and wanted to reduce their chances of being seen parking the car.

I think 2) makes sense, and that it also makes locating the car later simpler, particularly if the main lots were packed.
Occam's razor may apply here and elsewhere.

 

[Ozoner]

I can think of three reasons the car was parked a good distance from the entrance. I guess it could be any of these theories:
1) The mall was busy as it was the the pre-Christmas shopping rush. by the time they arrived, they may not have been able to get any closer.
2) Rachel was uncomfortable driving and especially parking such a large car and chose to park where there were fewer other cars to make parking easier.
3) Someone else parked the car and wanted to reduce their chances of being seen parking the car.

I think 2) makes sense, and that it also makes locating the car later simpler, particularly if the main lots were packed.
Occam's razor may apply here and elsewhere.

Fort Worth wasn't THAT big of a city in 1974. (The 1970 census showed 393,455 people.) On one of the biggest shopping days of the year, the girls should have bumped into several people whom they knew. (I know I do any time I go to the mall for Christmas shopping in late December.)
However, sightings of them at the mall were few and far between; none can really be confirmed. If they made it to the mall parking lot under their own power, it seems unlikely that they ever made it inside the mall.
-
It's possible that they were abducted from the parking lot, but it seems more likely that they never made it there.

 

[johnbelt]

Fort Worth wasn't THAT big of a city in 1974. (The 1970 census showed 393,455 people.) On one of the biggest shopping days of the year, the girls should have bumped into several people whom they knew. (I know I do any time I go to the mall for Christmas shopping in late December.)
However, sightings of them at the mall were few and far between; none can really be confirmed. If they made it to the mall parking lot under their own power, it seems unlikely that they ever made it inside the mall.
-
It's possible that they were abducted from the parking lot, but it seems more likely that they never made it there.

I agree with this so much but there is articles through the years saying people remember Rachel's shirt and all of these witness have came forward but they fail to mention these witnesses never actually went to police.The local paper has printed whatever the Arnold family has told them through the years.I posted a couple articles from early one talking to police which said the couldn't confirm anyone seen them.The earliest articles said they were last seen shopping at an outlet store not even the mall.Somebody really wanted people to think they disappeared from the mall.Just like the story about a bunch of presents in the car that was added later on.I can't imagine why Richard Wilson didn't expose their nonsense back then.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Can we find out?

If the person is verified as friend or family, it doesn't violate TOS.

 

[johnbelt]

Here is an Arnold's Transmission ad.Tommy claims to have to never known of the Fort Worth location and only invested and worked in the Arlington garage.

 

[Ozoner]

Here is an Arnold's Transmission ad.Tommy claims to have to never known of the Fort Worth location and only invested and worked in the Arlington garage.

How could he have not known about the Fort Worth location? Do you know the dates that the Fort Worth location opened and closed? Tommy's claim seems implausible unless the Fort Worth location had closed before Tommy started working for Cotton.