Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[curiousgene]

BBM. Yeah. Not a good look for Indiana LE.

I am certain the Flora case doesn’t get much press because of the race of the victims. Very sad. If they had been white, it would have been MAJOR news. What a world we live in.

It is sad indeed. Let's hope and pray there will be justice in the Flora case too.

 

[BNA]

Superintendent Carter hasn’t interviewed anyone. He is the Chief of Police (title is superintendent) of the Indiana State Police. There are 92 counties, 14 detachments, and many other sub-detachments that he is responsible for. He doesn’t work in Delphi although it might seem like it. . His office is in Indianapolis and very little of his time involves the Delphi murders.

I’ve wondered how he finds time to appear on every podcast that Joe Shmoe chooses to produce.

Based on your experience, might the term "interview" include conversation(s) with individuals who have offered any form of assistance with a case?

Might it include follow up discussions with individuals associated with the case?

 

[pearl]

I have followed this case from the start but haven't posted in this thread before. I have a question, if the Perp was to follow this case on websleuths, would there be a way to see who has been watching the threads the whole time and trace them through their IP address. Also. may be a member who only joined after the fact? Just a thought but probably a crazy one.

I think only LE might be able to get some type of information if they presented Websleuths with a search warrant for a specific IP address. WS is anonymous. The only time a member has to provide a legal name is to be considered to be a verified contributor for some reason. I haven't read any posts that I personally think might be attributed to this particular killer. I read two posts on another forum years ago that I have questions about. I had something odd happen to me many years ago. I got visited by the trash police in my county because he found a bag of trash on the side of a road 15 miles from my house. Diligent worker that he was (sarcasm here), he pawed through the bag of trash and found a public library book return receipt with a library number on it. He went to the library and raised hell to find out whose number it was. They made him get a warrant. Needless to say, he was irate when he got out to my property. He just refused to provide me with a reason why I would drive 15 miles to throw out a bag of trash when there was a large green dumpster within sight of my house. I finally just told him the name of my lawyer and shut the door in his face. Never heard another thing about it.

 

[Charlot123]

I find myself wondering that very same thing and not just on this case. (I know of at least 2 other cases on here right off where a POI or the father of a POI was posting and we all knew it.) However, for quite some time I followed cases on here without signing up. That is, I came on as a guest. IOW, a 'lurker'. There may a way to trace someone through their IP address IF they are signed up. I suspect that might not be possible if they come on here as a guest.

That said, I'm far from an expert on computers and IT. MAYBE the guests can be traced. This might one of those things the killer would like to know. And, one day he will.

Oh, I think the killer knows how forums work. The guy who was so smart as to not leave any mobile/GPS trace, no viable DNA trace, and, I am positive, no cameras trace either.

He is somewhat a pro in this business, is he not? Chris Watts got into his neighbor’s camera. Patrick Frazee left all possible GPS, DNA, matter traces, witnesses, whatnot. BG emerged from nowhere and vanished into thin air. All LE has was from Libby.

So I am sure he knows how forums work. I don’t, but I cynically assume that everything can be traceable, because even as lurkers, we leave cookies (I think).

I am not surprised that he hides behind someone else, or uses Tor, if he lives alone. Or, if he posts, he can mimic the style of a woman, or make some typos, pretending to be an uneducated dude, you know.

But either way, no one can accuse him based on pattern of frequenting criminal forums, YouTube videos, facebooks, twitters, podcasts, msm or non-msm media, or whatever, because think of what it could do to the reputation of the said places. Discussing it is one thing, maybe the LE could use some ideas. But tracing participants will end up killing these medias, this is all.

Too bad he went the criminal way, he’d make a perfect, logical, systematic LE.

 

[Charlot123]

Interviews can also be consultations.

This interview may not have been in the capacity that most people are thinking of.

From what you are saying, it sounds like he is only involved in this case at a 'high level' then. Fair enough and I respect your professional knowledge and all I am giving is my opinion here.

That is NOT my interpretation from listening to his countless interviews and reading many articles.

He encourages the public to e-mail tips to him directly in this link at around the 12 minute mark. Why give his own e-mail address if he is spending very little time on the Delphi case?

He has the girls names etched into his desk and carries a piece of the bridge with him.

ISP: We're 'one tip away' from solving Delphi murders

“I’ve walked across the high bridge myself. It’s 65-70 feet off the river deck. It hasn’t had a train on it since 1929," Carter said. "The ties are starting to rot. It sways back and forth and it’s not something you can just jump on and walk straight across if you’ve never done it before. I decided I was going to take the riverbank going back, I didn’t. That wasn’t the first time he’s been on that high bridge, my opinion, again that’s my opinion. I experienced it and I kept a piece of the high bridge and I’ll carry it with me til we find out who this is."

“This is very personal to me. And maybe it’s because I’m in the sunset of my career, but it’s the epitome of evil," Carter said. "Those two girls, once we tell you all we know about them you might understand a little bit more about why it’s so emotional, but I think of Abby and Libby all the time. I have their names etched in my desk. I think about them all the time, I think about their families and the community and what I saw in that community. "

I know DC must be a very busy man with the huge network of responsibilies he has, but I think he spends at least a small portion of every single day on the Delphi case for him to be thinking about them all the time....not to mention the time it takes to do all these interviews and podcasts.

JMO

He looks sincere and honest, and I am positive that he feels very sorry for the girls, he’s the father, too (totally public information). But he is somewhat theatrical, too. Really, carving the girls’ initials, keeping part of the bridge...the bridge is not a relic, it is a decrepit monster and the place of a heinous crime.

When emotions substitute logic...

 

[Cutiekitty]

Oh, I think the killer knows how forums work. The guy who was so smart as to not leave any mobile/GPS trace, no viable DNA trace, and, I am positive, no cameras trace either.

He is somewhat a pro in this business, is he not? Chris Watts got into his neighbor’s camera. Patrick Frazee left all possible GPS, DNA, matter traces, witnesses, whatnot. BG emerged from nowhere and vanished into thin air. All LE has was from Libby.

So I am sure he knows how forums work. I don’t, but I cynically assume that everything can be traceable, because even as lurkers, we leave cookies (I think).

I am not surprised that he hides behind someone else, or uses Tor, if he lives alone. Or, if he posts, he can mimic the style of a woman, or make some typos, pretending to be an uneducated dude, you know.

But either way, no one can accuse him based on pattern of frequenting criminal forums, YouTube videos, facebooks, twitters, podcasts, msm or non-msm media, or whatever, because think of what it could do to the reputation of the said places. Discussing it is one thing, maybe the LE could use some ideas. But tracing participants will end up killing these medias, this is all.

Too bad he went the criminal way, he’d make a perfect, logical, systematic LE.

BBM - Actually, he wouldn’t. He wasn’t perfect and what he did is not logical. He’s lucky and just an ordinary criminal that hasn’t been caught. Yet.

 

[Charlot123]

Unfortunately, it's likely because the victims are black.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/black-homicides-arrests/

You know, that (as we all culturally are more moved by the cases we can identify with; human nature), and plus, it was a poorer neighborhood.

(However, at least one white man, a policeman, obviously, felt different. He tried to save the girls, he was injured. Why doesn’t anyone pay attention to it?)

In the beginning, Delphi case was destined to go the same way, drugs, meth, but the video, the audio, and finally, the incompetence of LE somewhat sensationalized it.

 

[Charlot123]

BBM - Actually, he wouldn’t. He wasn’t perfect and what he did is not logical. He’s lucky and just an ordinary criminal that hasn’t been caught. Yet.

Well...so far, he is better than Indiana police, that simple.

 

[Charlot123]

It's often frustrating when suspects are captured on video but can't be identified. It happens all the time with B&Es/robberies. Many businesses have security cameras that produce grainy, black and white videos that are better than nothing but not by much. Unfortunately, the video of BG is too grainy to be useful for identifying a suspect. Cell phone cameras are improving, though. If this crime were to occur today, there's a much better chance that BG would be identifiable.

I have a question. I wonder if the hat BG is wearing is an old “pilot”, “fourage”, or “overseas” cap.

This...I swear, I see a wedge in the midst of it


And this is an old vintage Bunderswehr pilot cap. I assume discontinued in 1988.

Vintage military hat German air force cap German flight cap Luftwaffe side cap Bunderswehr Luftwaffe 1988 Size 61 Air Force Germany

So the color of the hat looks military khaki to me. The shape is like a pilot cap. The back flap is something the hat on my photo has. I think I see some logo, could it be the old round one from Bundesrepublik?

It that possible that the guy is a navy brat whose parents served in US army stationed in West Germany? Or, if he is older, could he himself have been stationed there in his youth? Or can the guy merely collect old vintage military items?

I can’t unsee a pilot hat.

 

[almagata]

Whether that is the reason or not, the appearance of it being because of the victims' race is not a good sign. Evidently there are very few deaths in this community due to foul play and we have one case with black victims with almost zero publicity. And another involving white victims and LE went to general quarters over it.

I did some reading about the Flora fire and there is definitely some odd behavior by investigators on that case. I'm still not convinced it was an arson and not due to poor wiring in the home that did not have a smoke detector.

When the case was ruled an arson, it took all the responsibility for the property maintenance off of the property owner and put it on some faceless arsonist.

I agree there still is huge racism in this country but you just don't see people target kids like that in crimes unless it is a family member.

 

[Charlot123]

I did some reading about the Flora fire and there is definitely some odd behavior by investigators on that case. I'm still not convinced it was an arson and not due to poor wiring in the home that did not have a smoke detector.

When the case was ruled an arson, it took all the responsibility for the property maintenance off of the property owner and put it on some faceless arsonist.

I agree there still is huge racism in this country but you just don't see people target kids like that in crimes unless it is a family member.

Do we have a thread about that case here? I can't find it.

But here is what I found... Another arson? Or a fire, but again, 4 children killed.

IN - Logansport Fire Killed 4 children & 2 adults May Have Been Intentionally Set, 28 Nov 2018

BTW, no one paid attention to it, either. I think the Delphi case became high-profile only because there is so much of BG, video, audio, and no results in 3 years whatsoever, plus odd PCs. It basically invites people to try "solving" it.

P.S. there is some strange connection in months. November 16, 2016 - Flora fire, 4 kids killed. November 28, 2018 - Logansport fire, 6 killed.

If it is a serial arsonist, and we don't know, of course, there is something about "even" numbers.

 

[Charlot123]

deleted

Basically, double post

 

[Thelastleg]

I have a question. I wonder if the hat BG is wearing is an old “pilot”, “fourage”, or “overseas” cap.

This...I swear, I see a wedge in the midst of it


And this is an old vintage Bunderswehr pilot cap. I assume discontinued in 1988.

Vintage military hat German air force cap German flight cap Luftwaffe side cap Bunderswehr Luftwaffe 1988 Size 61 Air Force Germany

So the color of the hat looks military khaki to me. The shape is like a pilot cap. The back flap is something the hat on my photo has. I think I see some logo, could it be the old round one from Bundesrepublik?

It that possible that the guy is a navy brat whose parents served in US army stationed in West Germany? Or, if he is older, could he himself have been stationed there in his youth? Or can the guy merely collect old vintage military items?

I can’t unsee a pilot hat.

In some photos I thought I saw a hat but not in this one. I do see a dent in his head. Perhaps distinctive hair parting. That type of hat wouldn't be very secure. I imagine it would be quite breezy on the bridge at that height. Even on a calm day. What if it had blown off. Plenty of DNA. Or maybe it did. Who knows. Jmo

 

[Charlot123]

Interviews can also be consultations.

This interview may not have been in the capacity that most people are thinking of.

From what you are saying, it sounds like he is only involved in this case at a 'high level' then. Fair enough and I respect your professional knowledge and all I am giving is my opinion here.

That is NOT my interpretation from listening to his countless interviews and reading many articles.

He encourages the public to e-mail tips to him directly in this link at around the 12 minute mark. Why give his own e-mail address if he is spending very little time on the Delphi case?


JMO

Snipped by me.

And this is interesting. Either DC wants to solve the case himself, or does not trust other investigators to pick up on the right tip, or simply, there might be difference of opinions between him and other investigators about the course of action, and maybe, even about the POIs?

When you give your personal email address, to me, it means that you want to control everything about the case, that you think your employees are not as good as you are, that for some reason, you are unwilling to delegate the responsibilities.

However, he is one, and a very busy, man. He can not oversee everything in that case. He might be simply tired. And then, it is always a team effort.

His own email means, that there is no team effort, or he is desperate.

 

[Specialk72]

Hi, I have a few questions hope you can help me. I haven't read all of the threads so apologies if these questions have been asked and answered before...

1. Was the area where the girls were found searched the night before? Or was it searched, they weren't there and then placed there overnight?
2. Why aren't the police worried about this happening again? In my mind, a child killer on the loose would put the fear of god in the community right? What do they know that gives me courage to say no one else is in danger?

I've just been listening to the podcast and a few questions have come up.


Thank you

 

[Charlot123]

In some photos I thought I saw a hat but not in this one. I do see a dent in his head. Perhaps distinctive hair parting. That type of hat wouldn't be very secure. I imagine it would be quite breezy on the bridge at that height. Even on a calm day. What if it had blown off. Plenty of DNA. Or maybe it did. Who knows. Jmo

interesting. I don't see hair, I see a wedge in a dark-green/brown hat. I googled different "overseas hats", some sit very tightly on the head, and are deep. Well, just an idea. I think there is sort of a logo, too.

 

[JudgeJudi]

"I think a cold case is like a sketch. A sketch is not a photograph — it's an idea, it's a rendering," Doug Carter, ISP Superintendent, said. "I think a cold case is when there's absolutely nothing, and that's not the case here."

"I've heard those detectives tell me, 'when we get done, superintendent, we're gonna start all over.' And that's what they've done, and they'll continue to do that".

These words will resonate with everyone here, but this is DC talking about the Flora fire where four children aged 5, 7, 9 and 11 perished. It happened 12 weeks before Abby and Libby, and coincidentally also happened on a Monday.

Neither case has progressed in 3 years and DC still says they’re not cold. It seems as though there may be one or more persons who lives in or frequents Carroll County who has a depraved indifference to human life.

There doesn't appear to be a thread for the Flora fire which is disappointing, but here are links for the first, second and third anniversaries.

One year later: Remembering four sisters killed in Flora house fire

On 2-year anniversary of deadly Flora fire, family honors 4 sisters killed

Three years later: Investigation of Flora Fire that killed four sisters continues

 

[BNA]

When the case was ruled an arson, it took all the responsibility for the property maintenance off of the property owner and put it on some faceless arsonist.

Disagree. There's a good reason insurance companies resist/delay payment for property damage from fires where arson is suspected.

That is just a general quibble.....not a comment on the instant case.

 

[Ozoner]

I did some reading about the Flora fire and there is definitely some odd behavior by investigators on that case. I'm still not convinced it was an arson and not due to poor wiring in the home that did not have a smoke detector.

Snipped
The origin and cause report was peer reviewed by the Indianapolis Fire Department, and they confirmed that it was arson.
Flora house fire that killed 4 sisters confirmed to be arson after IFD peer review
-
A few possibilities come to mind.
1) The house was divided into two apartments. The tenant of the other apartment might have been the target.
2) The girls had just participated in a cheerleading compdtition. That could have led to a grudge, especially if one of the girls outperformed a white girl whose parents were racists.
-
3) The four girls had four different fathers. Any one of those fathers might have wanted to avoid child support.
-
Is there a websleuths thread for the Flora fire?
-
At any rate, there's no evidence of a connection to this case aside from the fact that DC wants to solve both cases.

 

[TL4S]

Snipped
The origin and cause report was peer reviewed by the Indianapolis Fire Department, and they confirmed that it was arson.
Flora house fire that killed 4 sisters confirmed to be arson after IFD peer review
-
A few possibilities come to mind.
1) The house was divided into two apartments. The tenant of the other apartment might have been the target.
2) The girls had just participated in a cheerleading compdtition. That could have led to a grudge, especially if one of the girls outperformed a white girl whose parents were racists.
-
3) The four girls had four different fathers. Any one of those fathers might have wanted to avoid child support.
-
Is there a websleuths thread for the Flora fire?
-
At any rate, there's no evidence of a connection to this case aside from the fact that DC wants to solve both cases.

In one interview, maybe in the video linked a page or so back, DC also says he doesn't think the four girls who died in the Flora fire were killed intentionally. The fire may have been arson, but LE must have reason to think it wasn't set with murder in mind. JMO