Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Cutiekitty]

Dbm

 

[Cutiekitty]

The video would have a timestamp so they would have that detail though. Unless they then had a witness come forward later, after the billboards went up, who saw (or said they saw) BG leaving the cemetery or near Freedom Bridge or the CPS building. MOO.

The video definitely has a timestamp and a witness definitely could’ve come forward later. Could they have come earlier? Idk. The times are just funky. Ive got to think about it some more.

Quoted bbm

I agree.

Several months after the 2nd sketch came into play, my mind changed about trusting the reported witness timeline sightings.

With the change in sketch and with the extreme differences between the two (JMO), I started to question who those witnesses actually saw.

I now only trust the following times:

• The time that they were dropped off (reported as approx 1:38/1:39 p.m.) and when Libby called D.G. to arrange their pick-up time.
• 2:07 snapchat photo upload time (even this has been a hot topic!)
• 3:11 p.m. when D.G. called Libby's phone the 1st time and she didn't answer.

JMO

Im not even getting started on SC. Nope.

I’m too data driven for this I think. It’s hard for me to just go with what has been said - I want to see the supporting documents (call records, data logs, etc...). I’m not entitled to see them nor do I actually need to see them and I’m aware of that. Thanks to all for dealing with me and my skepticism which results in occasional outbursts.

 

[minazoe]

more and more I believe the girls were followed there.

I feel this killer was focused on one or both of the girls.

he followed them from their home or he knew from SM and came earlier to scope the park .He watched the parking lot and saw the park was relatively quiet.

he planned to entrap them at the bridge and was counting on them crossing it. and positioned himself to make his entry.

I don't think he was waiting there for a random person.

his approach is not that of a deranged person or person in psychosis..its very controlled and deliberate.

wonder if one of the girls could have rebuffed and older boy or someone in the community who may have seen them often, a grocery store, another school, a delivery person or repairman.. Did the girls ever go to the bar to eat and play pinball games and pool on Saturday afternoons with family members? places where they could be observed or approached ...

someone who could harbor an obsession.

another thought I had was someone who was obsessed with the bridge and had a fantasy where he traps someone at the end of the bridge and then takes them prisoner. One of those fantasies that plays over and over on a loop and has to be realized. a fantasy that must be acted out eventually.

I also feel like we don't have a satisfactory answer for why these girls went there to begin with..I question it because without boys around or a larger group hanging out..most girls their age would go shopping and a movie.

this has always nagged at me. and I often wonder if there was an unknown lure that brought
them there.

mOO

 

[Charlot123]

He looks older and a bit heavy set. His jacket is distinctive for someone who knows him to identify him from it. The sketch portrays a younger person than the photo but I think that was drawn from potential eyewitness accounts?

We have been looking at the film for such a long time, it is impossible to say. Depends on the frame one is viewing. I’d still think he has an odd gait, but about “heavy set”, not sure. The jacket looks generic to me.

It still has yet to be confirmed by the FBI if the murderer was wearing a hat. They still have yet to mention the suspect wearing a "hat" They do continue to mention a hoodie.
It is difficult to tell with such a short clip where the suspect is only taking 2 full steps and not completing a third step.. Very short loop. In certain paused frames, it can appear that he has no hat and that the hoodie is creating an illusion. His hair can appear to be combed downward.

"Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams."

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI

Interestingly, in the clearest shot, N47 I think, where some of our posters see hair, I see a hat. I agree that there may be some hair on the forehead, and maybe ears, and since the hat is sandy- to khaki-colored, it seems that hair is darker, light brown or so. But that hat I always saw. I used to think it was sandy shearling; once, when we were traveling in Europe, I almost ran into a store that, I thought, was selling such hats.

Recently, I stopped looking at lines (they are blurry) and started look at colors; it works better for me.

Subjective, all is subjective.

 

[Charlot123]

Nope. State police have often stated they will keep information from the public because they believe that this is a control thing for the murderer and they do not want him to have satisfaction of letting him know what they know about the case. It is just a matter of time. 3 years is frustrating. BG will slip up at some point. Perhaps get drunk and hint what he did to someone close to him.

i have a feeling that he is very scared. Also, I think he is checking and watching everything, to know where the LE is, but he is not a happy guy, proud of overplaying the ISP. I think his life is not to be envied, either. He is sitting under that sword of Damocles, waiting for it to fall. MOO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Just found:
Google’s Sensorvault Is a Boon for Law Enforcement. This Is How It Works.
For years, police detectives have given Google warrants seeking location data tied to specific users’ accounts.

But the new warrants, often called “geofence” requests, instead specify an area near a crime. Google looks in Sensorvault for any devices that were there at the right time and provides that information to the police.

Google first labels the devices with anonymous ID numbers, and detectives look at locations and movement patterns to see if any appear relevant to the crime. Once they narrow the field to a few devices, Google reveals information such as names and email addresses.

 

[hardknocklife]

more and more I believe the girls were followed there.

I feel this killer was focused on one or both of the girls.

he followed them from their home or he knew from SM and came earlier to scope the park .He watched the parking lot and saw the park was relatively quiet.

he planned to entrap them at the bridge and was counting on them crossing it. and positioned himself to make his entry.

I don't think he was waiting there for a random person.

his approach is not that of a deranged person or person in psychosis..its very controlled and deliberate.

wonder if one of the girls could have rebuffed and older boy or someone in the community who may have seen them often, a grocery store, another school, a delivery person or repairman.. Did the girls ever go to the bar to eat and play pinball games and pool on Saturday afternoons with family members? places where they could be observed or approached ...

someone who could harbor an obsession.

another thought I had was someone who was obsessed with the bridge and had a fantasy where he traps someone at the end of the bridge and then takes them prisoner. One of those fantasies that plays over and over on a loop and has to be realized. a fantasy that must be acted out eventually.

I also feel like we don't have a satisfactory answer for why these girls went there to begin with..I question it because without boys around or a larger group hanging out..most girls their age would go shopping and a movie.

this has always nagged at me. and I often wonder if there was an unknown lure that brought
them there.

mOO

You make some great points, and I.m definitely with you on many of them.

At first I thought this was a totally random encounter, but now I think you are right, he was tracking them. In a small town it isn’t hard to run across people often, and if he got obsessed, these girls were all over social media posting, it would be easy to follow them. I’m also not ruling out geocaching sites as a tie as well.

Even if the girls didn’t know him, he may have known one or both of them, been stalking them on various platforms (so so easy to find people when they post in real time on Instagram and Snapchat).

I think depending on his obsession, he could have been cat fishing them to get them to meet him there, with them thinking they are going to meet a cute teen boy. I remember being 13 or 14 and purposely going to places with my girls where we could awkwardly meet up with boys (like the mall). Not a date, but it would be easy to Tweet/comment on SM like ‘hey, going to the bridge’ and the girls deciding to go to see if they ran into him.

I think they realized after seeing BG on the bridge, likely after an initial encounter elsewhere on the trail (passing by) that maybe they were catfished or followed by this is the creep from SM, let’s record the perv.

i don’t think it is 100% random anymore.

 

[JudgeJudi]

It still has yet to be confirmed by the FBI if the murderer was wearing a hat. They still have yet to mention the suspect wearing a "hat" They do continue to mention a hoodie.

Agreed. The FBI don't appear to have updated their original poster. However there are numerous MSM articles referring to a hat.

“Detectives say the man's hat was not drawn as described in order to make his facial features more easily recognizable.”

One Year Later: Why the Delphi case isn't cold

 

[Marzipan]

IN - Mark J Sandifur, charged with child molesting, Flora, 28 Aug 2019

Back to Flora fires connection potential and targeting potential...has this already been discussed? I’ve read all the threads but could have missed. The above WS thread is a mix of news and speculation. There are some interesting comments.

 

[Falling Down]

I wonder if the 'last seen at 2:30pm" was a sighting by a witness (perhaps BG entering or exiting the area) or would there have been a timestamp on Libby's video--perhaps she recorded him at 2:30pm?

Either way I tend to think that the murders were done and BG was out of the woods long before DG tried texting/calling. If the girls were on the bridge heading SE at 2:07pm as per the snapchat photo, and we know it only takes <10 minutes to fully cross the bridge they should have reached the SE end well before 2:30pm. It appears BG approached them at the SE end, so I assume it was sometime around 2:15-2:20pm. I don't think it would take more that 15 minutes to get to their final resting place, which means they could have been killed by 2:30-2:45pm. Which witnesses were on the trails or under the bridge at this time?

For reference, from the SE end of the bridge to the CS is around 650 feet. I can see BG getting the girls there within 5-6 minutes.

Good post.

JMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

I also feel like we don't have a satisfactory answer for why these girls went there to begin with..I question it because without boys around or a larger group hanging out..most girls their age would go shopping and a movie.

IMO they were basically going to High Bridge to fill in a bit of time. Libby had been there many times and loved taking photos.

Becky said in her interview with GH:

"Libby always wants to be on the go and she was wanting to do something but Kelsi had to work that day. ... She enjoyed shopping which was new for her because I used to have to drag her with me to buy her school clothes. Because Libby has started enjoying shopping, I told her that 'I have some filing to do and if you girls want to do some filing for me, I’ll pay you and maybe later on today or tonight when I’m done, we could go”."

 

[chaz]

Off topic, I've just created a thread for the Flora house fire victims.
IN Keyana Davis,11, Keyara Phillips,9, Kerriele McDonald,7, and Kionnie Welch,5.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I suddenly thought, everyone is looking at Evansdale murders, but what if Flora fire was more connected? Maybe the MO - killing several kids - is meant to distract from the fact that in each case, only one needed to die? Maybe it is not a SK, but rather, serial child molester? And as soon as there is the chance that the child would talk, several are killed, to make it look like an accident, or a SK's act? We constantly wonder, who did he target, Libby or Abby? As to the Flora case, it is all but forgotten, and yet, it was initially called arson. And the older girl was 11 and a cheerleader. Maybe, instead of looking at Evansdale, one could see where the paths of the Flora and the Delphi girls could have crossed? I think it could be some sport activity, but maybe, something else? Was there a predator that could have abused one of Flora girls, and then wiped it off, so to say, by the fire? And then did the same to one of Delphi girls and killed two, to look as a SK?

ETA. We are looking at physical similarities between Delphi and Evansdale girls, but maybe we should look at the Flora and Delphi girls. They are of a different race, but maybe two of them had similar built, height, or other characteristics that he is attracted to? Besides young age?

What is happening with the Flora case?

Agreed on the Flora Fire!
I have always thought there is a strong possibility of a connection between the cases.

 

[8771]

... Add those statements to Holeman's statement about the reenactments being wrong, and my thoughts continue to move away from the simple scenario of "down the hill" at the end of the bridge, march them across the creek to a predetermined location, then kill them, all while L has her phone recording.

At 32:07 on Episode 5, Robert Ives says, "this was a daylight crime - it appears - almost certainly a crime during daylight ..."

Idk why I got hung up on that comment, but I suppose it may also add to the very sure way so many others are stating how complicated the whole thing is. I used to eye-roll so hard at the thought of an abduction, hostage situation, 'The Shack' allusion, etc ... but I'm starting to wonder if LE has also explored those possibilities.

More than likely, Ives' comment is probably not to give away too much information, but I would have thought the time and place would be one of the few things they are sure of, so I'm not sure why he'd play so coy as to those details (especially when I felt he was almost a little too forthcoming with pertinent info in his podcast interviews).

 

[Cutiekitty]

For reference, from the SE end of the bridge to the CS is around 650 feet. I can see BG getting the girls there within 5-6 minutes.

Good post.

JMO

In a straight line is about 165 meters or less than 1/2 a lap around a track. That could easily be done in 5 minutes, on a track. The terrain and the fact that he’s got to control two other people would factor into how long it would take too though.

 

[sunsetbeach]

Id like to know when she said that. I didn’t hear it in any of the podcasts. I didn’t watch all the other news and other TV shows though. If she said and meant it, then they think it’s someone dead or in jail or otherwise incapacitated, right? I can’t think of another reason not to be worried.

Jump to 51:15 in this video to hear her comment.

 

[Thelastleg]

Jump to 51:15 in this video to hear her comment.

Interesting "My boyfriends not a scared of him" makes it sound like they know who it is. Moo

 

[Cutiekitty]

I am totally confused about the SC pic taken at the south end of the bridge at 2:59/3:00 that shows a post time of 3:59. For the longest time I’ve read about this and tbh I had no clue what it was all about.

My current SC does not work that way. I took a snap the other day, had no WiFi (my data is turned off for SC - it’s a data hog) and when I posted it to my story it said posted 5 hours ago which was when I took the pic.

Actually, I could just take a SC pic of any previously taken pic and post it. The SC post time will reflect that the pic was just taken and it would appear as though it was taken with SC. This requires 2 phones and one can’t have a cracked screen. Not sure why you’d do that in this instance though.

This is for anybody that used SC in 2017 (I did not) ... was it possible to take a pic and post it later with the time displayed as the post time Not the actual snap time (without taking a pic of a pic)?

 

[MeadowMuffin]

We have been looking at the film for such a long time, it is impossible to say. Depends on the frame one is viewing. I’d still think he has an odd gait, but about “heavy set”, not sure. The jacket looks generic to me.

Maybe he's had surgery on his right knee. That's why he appears to be limping.

 

[HockeyMom330]

IN - Mark J Sandifur, charged with child molesting, Flora, 28 Aug 2019

Back to Flora fires connection potential and targeting potential...has this already been discussed? I’ve read all the threads but could have missed. The above WS thread is a mix of news and speculation. There are some interesting comments.

Wasn't Abby friends with someone (a boy) with the same last name as above?