Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #28

[Whaddayano]

BBM No one can make that claim. No one can take that away from her. She was born into it, she grew up with it and she seems to think that she practices it, albeit in a CRAZY (to most) way. Only Lori can determine if Lori is Mormon or not. She has a First Amendment right to practice what she wants. And at this point, there is no separating "her" religion from what has happened here. (Not sticking up for her - she's the vilest of vile in my book! She is, indeed, a BAD SEED or apple or whatever you want to call her!)

I usually stir clear of poster's disagreements (I know I'm going to regret posting this) but I have to insert my thoughts here and strongly disagree with what you posted (my pink font) to reluctant_anthropologist . His post was a well-written, intellectual piece with no emotion attached to it. I saw nothing that indicates anything "personal" in his post. Your response is full of emotions and very personal (certainly nothing wrong with that!), and yet you perceived his state of mind and intent based on your own personalization while telling him to not take it personally.

The only reason I speak out is because I really appreciate posters who can educate those of us that know little to nothing about Mormonism. There is another poster here (or was - she may have gotten discouraged with posts that attacked her differing insight/experience) who had insider information that was very educational. I appreciate these posters and hate to see them "corrected" to a point of not wanted to express themselves here when they are such a treasure to some of us who seek a better understanding of things that are not otherwise understandable.

This is all MOO and not an attack on you. Please forgive me if it appears that way.

i mean, i actually see a lot of merit in all three of your posts-- i really do!

i think these are all parts of the elephant, so to speak. and if the elephant is Lori then as much as we've seen there's still a whole lot more to her, and her background, and what makes her tick, as yet to be uncovered

 

[Minty Fresh]

I need to confess something. Although I call myself an anthropologist, my primary interest in this case is learning WTF happened. Where are those poor kids? Who was murdered, and who just died? Is the motive something crazy to do with a doomsday cult? Or is it money? Who will crack first? And who on earth put on a mask and shot at Tammy?

For months, I watched as my wife (who knows the Cox family well but doesn't post) read page after page of Websleuths and, night after night, said some version of "I've got to stop this, I've got things to do." And I didn't get it. But, like a dealer, she hooked me, and now it's me sitting alone at midnight, scrolling through the latest posts to see what's new.

I feel something like guilt. I should go to bed so I can wake up early and make sure our socially isolated kids get up on time and we can pretend it's a normal school day that just happens to be taking place at home. Or I should write to my grandma, who's stuck in a nursing home and, because she's high risk for Covid 19, can't receive visitors. But I'm not doing either of those things.

But I want to feel useful. So I'm going to try and help you all understand how Mormonism is simultaneously innocent and guilty of the crime of enabling Chad and Lori's doomsday views.

First of all, I will say that whatever religion Chad and Lori follow, it is not mainstream Mormonism. Mainstream Mormonism is safe. It's corporate. Sure, there's wackiness in the history, but mainstream Mormons truly are the nice neighbors who'll help you move that heavy piano into your house. They hold political views that progressives will find abhorrent. But so does 40% of the country. Mormons embrace, they do not upend, the status quo. And they certainly don't disappear their own kids and escape to Idaho.

But there is more to the story. The belief that the federal government has been taken over by godless men intent on destroying the freedoms that have made America great is not a fringe belief within Mormon culture. On the contrary, you hear such fears expressed almost every Sunday in Mormon churches. And the idea that you must be willing to take up arms to defend your families and communities is also entirely mainstream. Pacifism is not only not considered an aspiration worth striving for, it is derided.

So just as the Republican Party can't convincingly denounce Donald Trump without renouncing core Republican beliefs, the Mormon Church can't convincingly denounce the Chads and Loris of the world without renouncing core Mormon beliefs. They probably want to now. We probably have reached a point where Mormon leadership would risk blowback from its fringier members if they could end the influence of the extreme prepper movement.

But it's too late. For years, Mormon leaders were happy to let the preppers alone because the preppers fought so hard against the groups that Mormon leaders regarded as the true enemies: the atheists, the progressives, and really anyone who laughed at their authority. This was less a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than it was of "as long as these preppers keep saying these crazy things, then the not-so-different-things we say won't seem crazy." And as long as we don't sound crazy, we'll keep plenty of sheep in our fold.

There was a moment where the Mormon leadership could have stamped out prepperism with a few strongly worded statements to the whole Church. But that moment has passed. The Frankenstein of prepperism won't go down without a fight.

MOO

Your insight and candor is refreshing. And so very needed. Thank you.

 

[RBofHV]

I need to confess something. Although I call myself an anthropologist, my primary interest in this case is learning WTF happened. Where are those poor kids? Who was murdered, and who just died? Is the motive something crazy to do with a doomsday cult? Or is it money? Who will crack first? And who on earth put on a mask and shot at Tammy?

For months, I watched as my wife (who knows the Cox family well but doesn't post) read page after page of Websleuths and, night after night, said some version of "I've got to stop this, I've got things to do." And I didn't get it. But, like a dealer, she hooked me, and now it's me sitting alone at midnight, scrolling through the latest posts to see what's new.

I feel something like guilt. I should go to bed so I can wake up early and make sure our socially isolated kids get up on time and we can pretend it's a normal school day that just happens to be taking place at home. Or I should write to my grandma, who's stuck in a nursing home and, because she's high risk for Covid 19, can't receive visitors. But I'm not doing either of those things.

But I want to feel useful. So I'm going to try and help you all understand how Mormonism is simultaneously innocent and guilty of the crime of enabling Chad and Lori's doomsday views.

First of all, I will say that whatever religion Chad and Lori follow, it is not mainstream Mormonism. Mainstream Mormonism is safe. It's corporate. Sure, there's wackiness in the history, but mainstream Mormons truly are the nice neighbors who'll help you move that heavy piano into your house. They hold political views that progressives will find abhorrent. But so does 40% of the country. Mormons embrace, they do not upend, the status quo. And they certainly don't disappear their own kids and escape to Idaho.

But there is more to the story. The belief that the federal government has been taken over by godless men intent on destroying the freedoms that have made America great is not a fringe belief within Mormon culture. On the contrary, you hear such fears expressed almost every Sunday in Mormon churches. And the idea that you must be willing to take up arms to defend your families and communities is also entirely mainstream. Pacifism is not only not considered an aspiration worth striving for, it is derided.

So just as the Republican Party can't convincingly denounce Donald Trump without renouncing core Republican beliefs, the Mormon Church can't convincingly denounce the Chads and Loris of the world without renouncing core Mormon beliefs. They probably want to now. We probably have reached a point where Mormon leadership would risk blowback from its fringier members if they could end the influence of the extreme prepper movement.

But it's too late. For years, Mormon leaders were happy to let the preppers alone because the preppers fought so hard against the groups that Mormon leaders regarded as the true enemies: the atheists, the progressives, and really anyone who laughed at their authority. This was less a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than it was of "as long as these preppers keep saying these crazy things, then the not-so-different-things we say won't seem crazy." And as long as we don't sound crazy, we'll keep plenty of sheep in our fold.

There was a moment where the Mormon leadership could have stamped out prepperism with a few strongly worded statements to the whole Church. But that moment has passed. The Frankenstein of prepperism won't go down without a fight.

MOO

Definitely your opinion. Not mine from my experience as an LDS member but that’s okay. We can have different observations. Definitely do not want any religious discussion on this as not the forum for debate but want others to know not everyone has this opinion. MOO

 

[BeckyF]

I need to confess something. Although I call myself an anthropologist, my primary interest in this case is learning WTF happened. Where are those poor kids? Who was murdered, and who just died? Is the motive something crazy to do with a doomsday cult? Or is it money? Who will crack first? And who on earth put on a mask and shot at Tammy?

For months, I watched as my wife (who knows the Cox family well but doesn't post) read page after page of Websleuths and, night after night, said some version of "I've got to stop this, I've got things to do." And I didn't get it. But, like a dealer, she hooked me, and now it's me sitting alone at midnight, scrolling through the latest posts to see what's new.

I feel something like guilt. I should go to bed so I can wake up early and make sure our socially isolated kids get up on time and we can pretend it's a normal school day that just happens to be taking place at home. Or I should write to my grandma, who's stuck in a nursing home and, because she's high risk for Covid 19, can't receive visitors. But I'm not doing either of those things.

But I want to feel useful. So I'm going to try and help you all understand how Mormonism is simultaneously innocent and guilty of the crime of enabling Chad and Lori's doomsday views.

First of all, I will say that whatever religion Chad and Lori follow, it is not mainstream Mormonism. Mainstream Mormonism is safe. It's corporate. Sure, there's wackiness in the history, but mainstream Mormons truly are the nice neighbors who'll help you move that heavy piano into your house. They hold political views that progressives will find abhorrent. But so does 40% of the country. Mormons embrace, they do not upend, the status quo. And they certainly don't disappear their own kids and escape to Idaho.

But there is more to the story. The belief that the federal government has been taken over by godless men intent on destroying the freedoms that have made America great is not a fringe belief within Mormon culture. On the contrary, you hear such fears expressed almost every Sunday in Mormon churches. And the idea that you must be willing to take up arms to defend your families and communities is also entirely mainstream. Pacifism is not only not considered an aspiration worth striving for, it is derided.

So just as the Republican Party can't convincingly denounce Donald Trump without renouncing core Republican beliefs, the Mormon Church can't convincingly denounce the Chads and Loris of the world without renouncing core Mormon beliefs. They probably want to now. We probably have reached a point where Mormon leadership would risk blowback from its fringier members if they could end the influence of the extreme prepper movement.

But it's too late. For years, Mormon leaders were happy to let the preppers alone because the preppers fought so hard against the groups that Mormon leaders regarded as the true enemies: the atheists, the progressives, and really anyone who laughed at their authority. This was less a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than it was of "as long as these preppers keep saying these crazy things, then the not-so-different-things we say won't seem crazy." And as long as we don't sound crazy, we'll keep plenty of sheep in our fold.

There was a moment where the Mormon leadership could have stamped out prepperism with a few strongly worded statements to the whole Church. But that moment has passed. The Frankenstein of prepperism won't go down without a fight.

MOO

I think we all want answers to this, what I bolded above. Bottom line, there are at least 2 people who know the answers to these questions and I don't know what being Mormon has to do with it. There are certain actions that are against the law no matter what faith you choose to follow. These are laws created by statutes and if you break those laws, you should be held accountable and not hide behind your cult status. But I'm sure you know this. The laws that these 2 are thumbing their noses at is the same justice system that lowered LV's bail but I'm sure she was all in favor of that! She and he are just not in favor of answering to a court order to produce the children. Where are the children?

 

[LDS social scientist]

I need to confess something. Although I call myself an anthropologist, my primary interest in this case is learning WTF happened. Where are those poor kids? Who was murdered, and who just died? Is the motive something crazy to do with a doomsday cult? Or is it money? Who will crack first? And who on earth put on a mask and shot at Tammy?

For months, I watched as my wife (who knows the Cox family well but doesn't post) read page after page of Websleuths and, night after night, said some version of "I've got to stop this, I've got things to do." And I didn't get it. But, like a dealer, she hooked me, and now it's me sitting alone at midnight, scrolling through the latest posts to see what's new.

I feel something like guilt. I should go to bed so I can wake up early and make sure our socially isolated kids get up on time and we can pretend it's a normal school day that just happens to be taking place at home. Or I should write to my grandma, who's stuck in a nursing home and, because she's high risk for Covid 19, can't receive visitors. But I'm not doing either of those things.

But I want to feel useful. So I'm going to try and help you all understand how Mormonism is simultaneously innocent and guilty of the crime of enabling Chad and Lori's doomsday views.

First of all, I will say that whatever religion Chad and Lori follow, it is not mainstream Mormonism. Mainstream Mormonism is safe. It's corporate. Sure, there's wackiness in the history, but mainstream Mormons truly are the nice neighbors who'll help you move that heavy piano into your house. They hold political views that progressives will find abhorrent. But so does 40% of the country. Mormons embrace, they do not upend, the status quo. And they certainly don't disappear their own kids and escape to Idaho.

But there is more to the story. The belief that the federal government has been taken over by godless men intent on destroying the freedoms that have made America great is not a fringe belief within Mormon culture. On the contrary, you hear such fears expressed almost every Sunday in Mormon churches. And the idea that you must be willing to take up arms to defend your families and communities is also entirely mainstream. Pacifism is not only not considered an aspiration worth striving for, it is derided.

So just as the Republican Party can't convincingly denounce Donald Trump without renouncing core Republican beliefs, the Mormon Church can't convincingly denounce the Chads and Loris of the world without renouncing core Mormon beliefs. They probably want to now. We probably have reached a point where Mormon leadership would risk blowback from its fringier members if they could end the influence of the extreme prepper movement.

But it's too late. For years, Mormon leaders were happy to let the preppers alone because the preppers fought so hard against the groups that Mormon leaders regarded as the true enemies: the atheists, the progressives, and really anyone who laughed at their authority. This was less a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than it was of "as long as these preppers keep saying these crazy things, then the not-so-different-things we say won't seem crazy." And as long as we don't sound crazy, we'll keep plenty of sheep in our fold.

There was a moment where the Mormon leadership could have stamped out prepperism with a few strongly worded statements to the whole Church. But that moment has passed. The Frankenstein of prepperism won't go down without a fight.

MOO

Thanks for the post. As someone who'd probably call himself a "progressive" Mormon, aside from a couple of details that aren't worth going into here I agree with your big point that Mormonism has simultaneous (and somewhat complex) innocence and complicity in relation to the kind of stuff we're finding in AVOW and PAP. And I largely agree with your reasons. We could discuss this in a lot more detail, but this isn't the place for that. Suffice it to say, and I think as most on this board recognize, in trying to understand Chad and Lori, we should neither ignore mainstream Mormon beliefs, nor overblow their significance.

 

[watergirl62]

I am reading a book that was reference to on this chat much earlier, called “Under the Banner of Heaven”, about some crimes but gives amazing history of the Mormon church and the fringe elements, etc. very informative

I read that book many years ago, I am sure I picked it up because Krakauer published it after Into Thin Air. It is a great read historically speaking for non-Mormons, (I grew up near Independence). I don't remember too many particulars but I certainly do remember throwing the book because I found the plight of... was it Ruby Jessop? emotionally upsetting, and it made me so angry. It has the distinction of being the only book I ever threw across a room.

 

[LDS social scientist]

'So is this the same Church of the First Born?

Mexico - 10 members of Polygamist LeBaron Family murdered, Sonora, Nov 2019

They're the same only in the rather trivial sense that both originate from more mainstream LDS beliefs. But in trying to solve the case of these missing children/dead spouses, it's very, very, very unlikely that there's any value in thinking of them as the same.

We discussed this Church of the Firstborn several threads ago. Briefly, it is a concept that exists in mainstream Mormonism, but is an expectation for the future, expected to emerge only in more direct relation to Christ's Second Coming. Thus LDS splinter groups that have no relationship to each other (except that they each believe that they are closer than the mainstream church to understanding and experiencing the Last Days) sometimes talk of establishing the Church of the Firstborn. But each version of this Church of the Firstborn is likely quite unconnected to others.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Doesn’t the FBI know we are all stuck at home and need a new leak we can discuss???

Disclaimer: I in no way, shape or form think there is anything funny about this case. Just thought we could all use a laugh with all the sadness & anxiety in the world right now. MOO

Sooooo true.... I thought they were being good to us a couple of weeks ago with a leak or two... Geez it doesn't even have to be from the FBI... just some new fodder to chew on that we are allowed to discuss. I have a few douzy rabbit holes going on but no fun when you cannot discuss at large.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I read that book many years ago, I am sure I picked it up because Krakauer published it after Into Thin Air. It is a great read historically speaking for non-Mormons, (I grew up near Independence). I don't remember too many particulars but I certainly do remember throwing the book because I found the plight of... was it Ruby Jessop? emotionally upsetting, and it made me so angry. It has the distinction of being the only book I ever threw across a room.

thanks for the remind. People do keep saying it is a good read.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

They're the same only in the rather trivial sense that both originate from more mainstream LDS beliefs. But in trying to solve the case of these missing children/dead spouses, it's very, very, very unlikely that there's any value in thinking of them as the same.

We discussed this Church of the Firstborn several threads ago. Briefly, it is a concept that exists in mainstream Mormonism, but is an expectation for the future, expected to emerge only in more direct relation to Christ's Second Coming. Thus LDS splinter groups that have no relationship to each other (except that they each believe that they are closer than the mainstream church to understanding and experiencing the Last Days) sometimes talk of establishing the Church of the Firstborn. But each version of this Church of the Firstborn is likely quite unconnected to others.

Sometimes the CliffNotes or our course in Mormonism is helpful.. Reminding increases Recall!!! But as simply as you can what IS the actual meaning of "firstborn"

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Here's a Wikipedia article about Soldier's Summit: Soldier Summit, Utah - Wikipedia

I went hiking there years ago when I was in college in Logan. It's on a main highway over the mountains, very pretty area and very lightly populated.

Well another interesting story... Now that i have read the story, could you remind me of what it relates to.

 

[tresir2012]

They're the same only in the rather trivial sense that both originate from more mainstream LDS beliefs. But in trying to solve the case of these missing children/dead spouses, it's very, very, very unlikely that there's any value in thinking of them as the same.

We discussed this Church of the Firstborn several threads ago. Briefly, it is a concept that exists in mainstream Mormonism, but is an expectation for the future, expected to emerge only in more direct relation to Christ's Second Coming. Thus LDS splinter groups that have no relationship to each other (except that they each believe that they are closer than the mainstream church to understanding and experiencing the Last Days) sometimes talk of establishing the Church of the Firstborn. But each version of this Church of the Firstborn is likely quite unconnected to others.

What do you think Chad's version is like? How many versions are there likely to be?
I would appreciate you pointing me to the thread where we previously discussed it, especially as it has now come up in Chad's email to Lori.* ( and there was a suggestion that they could have been heading to Mexico from Kauai at one point. Those murders of women and children took place on the day Lori and Chad got married, by weird coincidence )

*ETA. NVM I have found it in thread 23.

 

[tresir2012]

Sooooo true.... I thought they were being good to us a couple of weeks ago with a leak or two... Geez it doesn't even have to be from the FBI... just some new fodder to chew on that we are allowed to discuss. I have a few douzy rabbit holes going on but no fun when you cannot discuss at large.

Yes, we do have two months till the next court appearance so any news is welcome, even the story about keeping the jail clean. Do inmates do the cleaning? I do hope so.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Well another interesting story... Now that i have read the story, could you remind me of what it relates to.

It was mentioned in one of CD's books as a place that would be good to wait out the last days. I've been wondering if the kids are stashed in one of the areas he mentioned in his books. I frankly think more focus shoild be placed on trying to find places where they stashed the kids. I just don't have time right now to delve into his books. I just mentioned this place from an excerpt posted threads ago, along with someplace near there. "Patriot's" something. I can't recall the exact name?

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Thanks for the post. As someone who'd probably call himself a "progressive" Mormon, aside from a couple of details that aren't worth going into here I agree with your big point that Mormonism has simultaneous (and somewhat complex) innocence and complicity in relation to the kind of stuff we're finding in AVOW and PAP. And I largely agree with your reasons. We could discuss this in a lot more detail, but this isn't the place for that. Suffice it to say, and I think as most on this board recognize, in trying to understand Chad and Lori, we should neither ignore mainstream Mormon beliefs, nor overblow their significance.

Well said..... we should neither ignore mainstream Mormon beliefs, nor overblow their significance.
For those of us who know so little about LDS, the extra input and interpretation is essential, to really understand what is at play. What I found so valuable in Anthropologist's explanation, was the added dimension of the strategy of the mainstream church in relation to these fringe groups. And basically, that is what we are all about here on these threads. ... the possible strategies ....the "what ifs".

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It was mentioned in one of CD's books as a place that would be good to wait out the last days. I've been wondering if the kids are stashed in one of the areas he mentioned in his books. I frankly think more focus shoild be placed on trying to find places where they stashed the kids. I just don't have time right now to delve into his books. I just mentioned this place from an excerpt posted threads ago, along with someplace near there. "Patriot's" something. I can't recall the exact name?

There are soooooo many groups on SM who are discussing, plotting, mapping potential locations. Lots of folks "live on scene" at places!! There is a lot of focus out there!! It is just that it is a big Ouija board and Chess game at the same time!!!

 

[watergirl62]

So combining with other posts up thread, we think he might be bringing in as much as $5/month per member and he has as many as 10 followers...Maybe 20% goes back to CP for overhead of the website, divide by 30 days, carry the 3... the total of his involvement for years in this group could be worth as much as a cup of coffee a day?

So about as much as he would make working for the Idaho Department of Correction.

from link ^^^

Institutional Work Detail: Many offenders' first job is on institutional labor detail. The institutional labor detail (ILD) is a crew of offenders whose primary job is to maintain large areas such as prison grounds and parking areas. ILD workers are normally not paid for their work, but good performance on ILD is often required before an offender will be considered for an institutional work assignment.

Prison Facilities: With the exception of ILD workers, offender workers may receive incentive pay. The money used for incentive pay normally comes from the inmate management fund, which is generated by revenues from prison telephones, commissary, etc. Incentive pay runs from 10 cents an hour for low-skill jobs to 30 cents an hour for high-skill jobs. At work camps and CWCs institutional workers receive slightly higher pay.

Not sure how dated this info is. I don't have time to look up federal inmate pay rates, and perhaps this ultimately will be non-applicable.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

It was mentioned in one of CD's books as a place that would be good to wait out the last days. I've been wondering if the kids are stashed in one of the areas he mentioned in his books. I frankly think more focus shoild be placed on trying to find places where they stashed the kids. I just don't have time right now to delve into his books. I just mentioned this place from an excerpt posted threads ago, along with someplace near there. "Patriot's" something. I can't recall the exact name?

Quoting my own post. It was nothing like Patriots something. It was Spanish Fork Canyon. Read here:

17- Writing “The Great Gathering” | cdaybell.com

 

[LDS social scientist]

What do you think Chad's version is like? How many versions are there likely to be?

Sorry, I don't have enough expertise to answer these well.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Quoting my own post. It was nothing like Patriots something. It was Spanish Fork Canyon. Read here:

17- Writing “The Great Gathering” | cdaybell.com

Thanks. I hate to say this, but found it a pleasant read.