Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

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Hey everybody!
I was sitting and trying to think how to spend some time while social distancing. I thought it might be interesting to ask some questions about different aspects of this case...that we’ve all been talking about for 3 years...and get a feel how we think about things as a group. I thought I would ask about ten questions a day...I got a lot of questions...and tally up the answers/ thoughts and report back in a few days or weeks. Some are yes/no questions. Some require more. I hope you think this sounds interesting too! Thanks to all who answer.

Day One

1) Were the girls being “catfished” and/or were they at the trails to meet someone?
2) Do you think the girls had a negative encounter with BG on the trails that day?
3) How did BG get to the trails?
4) How long had BG been at the trails that day?
5) Was BG at the trails looking for someone to kill?
6) Is BG wearing a cap in the bridge photo/video?
7) Is BG younger or older than 40?
8) Is the gap in the audio clip between “guys” and “down the hill” hiding sounds or conversation of evidentiary value or is it just smoothed over garble?
9) If you think it is of value, what do you suspect it is? Be as specific as possible.
10) Were the girl’s ordered down the hill after being shown a weapon or were they ordered down the hill as part of an authority figure ruse? Or what other scenario do you think might have happened?
 
watcher9 said:
You brought up something that startled me.

What if both of the sketches were drawn before the video clip shot was released and none of the witnesses had seen their guy in the BG clothes.

Maybe each sketch was drawn of just someone they remembered but had never been seen before on the trail. I wonder how the first sketch was compiled with several witnesses. Did each one have a separate sketch drawn and LE compiled them together into a single sketch or did they show the first one's sketch to other people who added their own opinion to alter the original sketch?

On TV I saw a new facial recognition program that is out now. I wonder if LE has ever tried to utilize it with the video clip shot?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's that process and the mystery behind it that has given me some doubts.
 
Cryptic said:
I agree, the use of the term 'hill' is in the majority with only two people reporting knowledge / usage of either the formal word or specialized slang terms.

Just out of curiosity, I am presuming that your are female, but what is your socio economic background? Also, have you ever heard friends and family members using the formal word or specialized slang?
Click to expand...
I've worked in the construction/civil engineering field for over 20 years. I'm familiar with all of these terms. To me personally, slope and grade are almost exclusively used in a technical sense. I.E. That is a 4% grade. Or that is a 3 to 1 slope. These both descibe how steep something is.

I don't know if I've ever used "embankment" myself, but probably hear it from time to time. I do use and hear "river bank" or "creek bank" a fair amount. I don't know what the technical definitions of these are, but I will generally only refer to an area as a river bank or a creek bank when that area is very close to the water. Usually like a high-water mark, or a drop-off where the water has "carved-out" it's channel.

Generally, I almost exclusively call everything a "hill." Basically any kind of fairly steeply sloped ground that takes effort and/or caution to walk up or down on, I will almost always call it a hill. To me, it is kind of a "catch all."
 
The 9th episode of "Down the Hill" is available on Apple iTunes. I have not checked the web site.

The scenario or theory posed by the hosts at the beginning of the podcast is not one I really agree with after hearing those on here who have been the bridge. The hosts believe the killer was already at the other end of the bridge and passed them going the opposite direction as the girls went to the end. Then the killer turned around and followed them after passing them. It was discussed on here that it is almost an unwritten rule that users don't go on the bridge while someone else is already on it. You wait till the party on the bridge comes back and gets off the bridge. Knowing that, I believe the girls would likely have turned around and gone back when they saw someone approaching from the other end.

The profiler, however, was VERY interesting on how the killer approached the crime, motivation, etc. That was the high point of the podcast for me.
 
JnRyan said:
The 9th episode of "Down the Hill" is available on Apple iTunes. I have not checked the web site.

The scenario or theory posed by the hosts at the beginning of the podcast is not one I really agree with after hearing those on here who have been the bridge. The hosts believe the killer was already at the other end of the bridge and passed them going the opposite direction as the girls went to the end. Then the killer turned around and followed them after passing them. It was discussed on here that it is almost an unwritten rule that users don't go on the bridge while someone else is already on it. You wait till the party on the bridge comes back and gets off the bridge. Knowing that, I believe the girls would likely have turned around and gone back when they saw someone approaching from the other end.

The profiler, however, was VERY interesting on how the killer approached the crime, motivation, etc. That was the high point of the podcast for me.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's possible he could have already been "down the hill" and came up. Who's to say he didn't come across the creek from the cemetery or from the road below. BUT, it has been mentioned previously that the girls had encountered a "creepy guy" so IMO it must have been on the trail to the bridge. I guess there could have been two creepy guys.
 
Cryptic said:
I agree, the use of the term 'hill' is in the majority with only two people reporting knowledge / usage of either the formal word or specialized slang terms.

Just out of curiosity, I am presuming that your are female, but what is your socio economic background? Also, have you ever heard friends and family members using the formal word or specialized slang?
Click to expand...

I'm still pondering the question. I would definitely not call that embankment a hill if I was trying to describe it to somebody, but I'm not sure what I would say if I were telling someone to go down it. Embankment is too long and too formal. If it's as sharp as it looks in the photos, I might call it a bluff.

I think I would probably say "go down the bank" or just "go down." "Go downhill" is also a possibility, but not "down the hill."
 
JnRyan said:
The 9th episode of "Down the Hill" is available on Apple iTunes. I have not checked the web site.

The scenario or theory posed by the hosts at the beginning of the podcast is not one I really agree with after hearing those on here who have been the bridge. The hosts believe the killer was already at the other end of the bridge and passed them going the opposite direction as the girls went to the end. Then the killer turned around and followed them after passing them. It was discussed on here that it is almost an unwritten rule that users don't go on the bridge while someone else is already on it. You wait till the party on the bridge comes back and gets off the bridge. Knowing that, I believe the girls would likely have turned around and gone back when they saw someone approaching from the other end.

The profiler, however, was VERY interesting on how the killer approached the crime, motivation, etc. That was the high point of the podcast for me.
Click to expand...

I am listening to the podcast as I am typing this. If the hosts' theory of BG being someone who planned the killing before 2017 and had rehearsed his plan, practised his methods and was waiting for an opportunity and victims, even his escape after the murder terrifies me. I hope they catch this guy soon. He seems to be too dangerous to be walking free out there planning his next kill.
 
JnRyan said:
The 9th episode of "Down the Hill" is available on Apple iTunes. I have not checked the web site.

The scenario or theory posed by the hosts at the beginning of the podcast is not one I really agree with after hearing those on here who have been the bridge. The hosts believe the killer was already at the other end of the bridge and passed them going the opposite direction as the girls went to the end. Then the killer turned around and followed them after passing them. It was discussed on here that it is almost an unwritten rule that users don't go on the bridge while someone else is already on it. You wait till the party on the bridge comes back and gets off the bridge. Knowing that, I believe the girls would likely have turned around and gone back when they saw someone approaching from the other end.

The profiler, however, was VERY interesting on how the killer approached the crime, motivation, etc. That was the high point of the podcast for me.
Click to expand...

I thought the theory posed by the hosts of the "Down the Hill" podcast was a good one. If you keep in mind two specific points, it makes sense. First, in the pictures Liberty German took before her video of the man on the bridge, there is no one in them. So if, for example, the girls passed the man before getting to the Monon High Bridge he must have waited a while before deciding to attack them. Second, according to one piece of public information, Abby said something like "Is that guy behind me?" when she got to the end of the bridge at which point Libby informed her that they could not go any further on the trail. This gave me the impression the girls had crossed paths with him earlier.

As for whether or not the killer planned or rehearsed the crime, I don't know. I think many killers don't do much planning, but that is my opinion.

I think the killer is someone who is an outdoor person, but I hesitate to go so far as to think he must be from Delphi, Indiana because of the remoteness of the Monon High Bridge. I think the killer may be familiar with the area because he travels through it a lot. I see an older man in his late 50's at least who could possibly be a truck driver. It could be that the sketches and the idea that he must be from the Delphi or surrounding area is what is causing so much confusion with solving the case.
 
StarryStarryNight said:
Hey everybody!
I was sitting and trying to think how to spend some time while social distancing. I thought it might be interesting to ask some questions about different aspects of this case...that we’ve all been talking about for 3 years...and get a feel how we think about things as a group. I thought I would ask about ten questions a day...I got a lot of questions...and tally up the answers/ thoughts and report back in a few days or weeks. Some are yes/no questions. Some require more. I hope you think this sounds interesting too! Thanks to all who answer.

Day One

1) Were the girls being “catfished” and/or were they at the trails to meet someone?
2) Do you think the girls had a negative encounter with BG on the trails that day?
3) How did BG get to the trails?
4) How long had BG been at the trails that day?
5) Was BG at the trails looking for someone to kill?
6) Is BG wearing a cap in the bridge photo/video?
7) Is BG younger or older than 40?
8) Is the gap in the audio clip between “guys” and “down the hill” hiding sounds or conversation of evidentiary value or is it just smoothed over garble?
9) If you think it is of value, what do you suspect it is? Be as specific as possible.
10) Were the girl’s ordered down the hill after being shown a weapon or were they ordered down the hill as part of an authority figure ruse? Or what other scenario do you think might have happened?
Click to expand...

1. Not catfished. I think they went to the trails to take pics and have fun like any other teenagers.
2. I think BG made a comment while they passed him and one of the girls(Libby) reacted angrily towards him.
3. I think he is a local guy who frequents the area.
4. Since morning based on how he was overly dressed.
5. Yes, and he may have been there before(other days) too but had not found the right opportunity.
6. Yes. maybe a hoodie.
7. Younger than 40.
8. Yes.
9. It could be something like"lets go" or "Walk!" but I feel the girls must have also said something at the same time like "What do you want?" or something along those lines.
10. I do not think Libby was the kind who would have just followed an authority figure so definitely a weapon was used and it was pointed towards Abby. Speculation and MOO.
 
JnRyan said:
The 9th episode of "Down the Hill" is available on Apple iTunes. I have not checked the web site.

The scenario or theory posed by the hosts at the beginning of the podcast is not one I really agree with after hearing those on here who have been the bridge. The hosts believe the killer was already at the other end of the bridge and passed them going the opposite direction as the girls went to the end. Then the killer turned around and followed them after passing them. It was discussed on here that it is almost an unwritten rule that users don't go on the bridge while someone else is already on it. You wait till the party on the bridge comes back and gets off the bridge. Knowing that, I believe the girls would likely have turned around and gone back when they saw someone approaching from the other end.

The profiler, however, was VERY interesting on how the killer approached the crime, motivation, etc. That was the high point of the podcast for me.
Click to expand...

I've heard this theory before, and think that it is a possibility. I've been wondering about that private driveway that goes under the bridge near the SE side. If he parked on that driveway under the bridge, he could have probably avoided anybody seeing him as he hung out (out of sight) near the SE end of the bridge. To me, the big issue with this is him being parked on a private driveway. The owners would almost definitely remember seeing his vehicle. Maybe he knew them, or knew their schedules? And, he could always abort his mission if someone else drove down the driveway before he confronted the girls. Just get in his vehicle and leave. Except, of course, once he confronted the girls, he would be taking a risk of someone seeing his vehicle on that driveway. Would he have been willing to take this risk for say the half hour it took him to commit the crime? I don't know. Was part of his contingency plan to kill the homeowner if they happened to come home in that timeframe? Did he go knock on the door when he first arrived to make sure no one was home?

As far as the unwritten rule goes: I think the bridge is something like 800ft long. So say he was out of sight off of the SE end of the bridge and saw the girls approaching. He could have waited until they were 90% across the bridge before he appeared and started walking towards them. I doubt the girls would have immediately turned around when they were that close to the end. Heck, he could have waited until they were all the way across and then appeared from behind a tree or an embankment [ ; ) ] and then started walking across the bridge. Maybe to make sure no one was following behind them, and then turned around and walked back towards them.

This theory also goes along with the possibility that he actually wanted to abduct them, but then they ran and he felt that he had to kill them because they had seen him. The problem I see with the theory of him wanting to abduct them is that it would seem difficult to control two teenage girls for one guy. I would think he would need to restrain them somehow, or lock them in his trunk or something. Again, he would just be asking for something to go wrong when dealing with two victims. Was he counting on them totally complying because he had a gun?

This scenario would sound more feasible if he had an accompliss. But where was the accompliss? Waiting in the vehicle? At the bottom of the hill? I would think they would want to stay together in case the girls tried to run.

The more I think about it, I think I am leaning away from this theory. If he was at the SE end of the bridge, I would think he would just let them get all the way across and then confront them. I'm not seeing why he would walk past them and then turn around. My best guess is that he just followed them across the bridge. Which also leads me to think that he knew that other people would probably see him on the trail, but he wasn't worried about anyone knowing or recognizing him. Which leads me to think that he is not from anywhere particularly close to Delphi. Maybe he had driven under the walking bridge over I-25 and he wondered where the trail went, and found out about the high bridge, and then started putting his plan in motion.

Anyway. Just some thoughts I've had. We really know so little and there are almost limitless possibilities. It's looking like without a very lucky break, that this case will never be solved.

JMO
 
StarryStarryNight said:
Hey everybody!
I was sitting and trying to think how to spend some time while social distancing. I thought it might be interesting to ask some questions about different aspects of this case...that we’ve all been talking about for 3 years...and get a feel how we think about things as a group. I thought I would ask about ten questions a day...I got a lot of questions...and tally up the answers/ thoughts and report back in a few days or weeks. Some are yes/no questions. Some require more. I hope you think this sounds interesting too! Thanks to all who answer.

Day One

1) Were the girls being “catfished” and/or were they at the trails to meet someone?
2) Do you think the girls had a negative encounter with BG on the trails that day?
3) How did BG get to the trails?
4) How long had BG been at the trails that day?
5) Was BG at the trails looking for someone to kill?
6) Is BG wearing a cap in the bridge photo/video?
7) Is BG younger or older than 40?
8) Is the gap in the audio clip between “guys” and “down the hill” hiding sounds or conversation of evidentiary value or is it just smoothed over garble?
9) If you think it is of value, what do you suspect it is? Be as specific as possible.
10) Were the girl’s ordered down the hill after being shown a weapon or were they ordered down the hill as part of an authority figure ruse? Or what other scenario do you think might have happened?
Click to expand...
Great idea!

1) I don’t think they were catfished or had plans to meet anyone that day.
2) I think the only encounter the girls had with BG that day was the unfortunate encounter that ended their lives.
3) I suspect BG drove to a location somewhat near the trails, parked his vehicle, and walked the rest of the way there.
4) I don’t think he was there very long before he encountered the girls but it was obviously long enough for him to be seen by several others. I’m gonna guess maybe 45 minutes to an hour.
5) Yes, I think BG was there looking for his next victim.
6) I thought he was wearing a hat when I first saw the photos... but after watching the video, I think it’s impossible to know because I think he’s wearing a hoodie.
7) This one is hard for me to say. I think he’s likely a bit younger—maybe 30 or 35–but he could also very well be 40+. However, I don’t think he’s a teenager or under the age of 25.
8) I don’t think his two statements were said in sequence and don’t think it’s possible to know the context in which he said them.
9) N/A
10) I lean more towards BG ordering them “down the hill” after brandishing a weapon, but again... I think it’s impossible to know.
 
cujenn81 said:
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that BG is some form of LE either. He’s probably not an investigator or highway patrolman... but maybe a game warden or something similar.
Click to expand...
Even though we have only heard a snippet of what he said, it was authoritative. If not LE, I suspect he is/was in a position of some authority, perhaps even someone involved working with teenagers. He didn't try to engage them from what we've heard. He ordered them "down the hill" and seemed comfortable ordering them.
 
Cryptic said:
I agree, the use of the term 'hill' is in the majority with only two people reporting knowledge / usage of either the formal word or specialized slang terms.

Just out of curiosity, I am presuming that your are female, but what is your socio economic background? Also, have you ever heard friends and family members using the formal word or specialized slang?
Click to expand...
For many of my generation who grew up in flyover country as I did, the word "hill" is a commonly used word. I'm a female and I don't believe I would characterize the slope as anything but a "hill". In fact, I caught myself using the word "guys" the other day, too.

In addition, I've lived my entire adult life on the both coasts and I've heard both words used regularly so I don't believe it has as much to do with socioeconomics as much as it has to do with words that are common to each generation.
 
StarryStarryNight said:
Hey everybody!
I was sitting and trying to think how to spend some time while social distancing. I thought it might be interesting to ask some questions about different aspects of this case...that we’ve all been talking about for 3 years...and get a feel how we think about things as a group. I thought I would ask about ten questions a day...I got a lot of questions...and tally up the answers/ thoughts and report back in a few days or weeks. Some are yes/no questions. Some require more. I hope you think this sounds interesting too! Thanks to all who answer.

Day One

1) Were the girls being “catfished” and/or were they at the trails to meet someone?
2) Do you think the girls had a negative encounter with BG on the trails that day?
3) How did BG get to the trails?
4) How long had BG been at the trails that day?
5) Was BG at the trails looking for someone to kill?
6) Is BG wearing a cap in the bridge photo/video?
7) Is BG younger or older than 40?
8) Is the gap in the audio clip between “guys” and “down the hill” hiding sounds or conversation of evidentiary value or is it just smoothed over garble?
9) If you think it is of value, what do you suspect it is? Be as specific as possible.
10) Were the girl’s ordered down the hill after being shown a weapon or were they ordered down the hill as part of an authority figure ruse? Or what other scenario do you think might have happened?
Click to expand...

Great idea!

1) I've thought from the beginning that they at least hoped they would run into someone or had plans to meet someone.
2) No.
3) Parked nearby and walked onto the trails.
4) Not long because I believe there would be more witnesses if he had been there more than an hour.
5) Yes, in addition to sexual assault.
6) Yes.
7) Age 30-40.
8) I believe there was more spoken but maybe not much more.
9) If he had pretended to be a boy to meet up with them, I believe he would have let that be known.
10) Both.

ETA: I didn't read anyone else's answers before writing mine because I didn't want to be influenced by other answers.
 
I am thinking about that glitch and factory reset.
Libby was teachno-savvy. And made photos. And made movies. No chance she did not save them on the stick.
I think that she reset it because she was told/coaxed/threatened/asked to, but she took precautions.
So did the murderer. Something was in her phone that was threatening to him.
So could the planned meeting (with someone) be a transaction. Libby, per her grandmother, discovered shopping. And that morning, girls made some money filing.
So either they wanted to buy something (why not?), or sell something (the stick), or the guy wanted to be sure there was nothing left in her phone.
I think the meeting was for “a transaction agreement”. But she did expect to meet someone different. Hence when the weirdo appeared, she got scared and started videotaping it.
He got what he came for.
And it was not some “souvenir”. It was some information saved somewhere.
He wanted to be sure he wiped off whatever she had.
 
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