Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Pavelsky]

do you really think the height is 100% accurate? maybe there is a mistake. I don't know. I feel like BG is a big guy.

are we no longer using sketch number one? how come sketch number one looks exactly like this bozo?

also how come BG looks nothing remotely like sketch #2

Im just asking.

mOO

When I look at the photo I keep trying desperately to zoom in, edit, make it sharper! I was hopeful that today's technology could do better than my laptop to bring the facial features and this beautiful photo that Libby took to better quality and really see who this person is! I know the things I see on tv for forensics is a bit of a stretch but really thought we had this technology to do better than this! Frustrating because it is right in front of us and we can't grasp it yet!

 

[Tealgrove]

Did anyone see Kelsi's tweet? Just wondering if something is going on or just gossip? Anyone have any idea?

Yup, I saw it and thought something was up and came straight here to see what was happening. Doesn't look like anything at this point.

 

[JnRyan]

My answers.

1. No because in my opinion there is no evidence to suggest that.
2. Yes, the girls were murdered.
3. He drove and then probably walked.
4. I would guess long enough, but do not know. In my opinion it was a crime of opportunity so he had some time on his hands.
5. I do not think most criminals plan their crimes. I think this was a crime of opportunity.
6. I think it is a Swiss army type hat or also known as a "floppy" ear hat or Russian hat.
7. I think his age is at least 55.
8. The two phrases may not be consecutive but no one knows. I think the police want people to be able to clearly hear his voice so someone turns him in.
9. I think the police are trying to give everyone an example of what he sounds like without playing other parts of the audio that are probably a lot more indicative of what happened to Abby and Libby.
10. I would guess he pulled a weapon and forced them to walk. I think he forced them to walk along the shoreline until they got to a point where the shoreline ended. At this point he had them cross the creek because he is out in the open. I think he did this so as not to be seen by anyone. This is what I got from watching all the videos people have put out about the Monon High Bridge area. It also indicates to me that the killer, while he might be familiar with the Monon High Bridge is not as familiar with the area surrounding it. I doubt he even knew he was on someone's private property.

I think the killer is some type of transient like a truck driver who walked in there, saw an opportunity, committed the crime, and left.

So you think he is at least 55. Interesting. If I'm looking at the second sketch I don't see someone that old. The first sketch, though, yes, he could be. If I'm looking at the video I think he could be anywhere from 18 to 55.

 

[curiousgene]

Several of us on here have thought this killer had at least done some recon on the trails if not rehearsing the plan. I believe it is very possible he did rehearse his crime prior to that day. That would mean he might have been seen there before although most of us are not observant enough to note others and remember them.

I also thought it was interesting that the profiler stated he would likely have not been noticeably different to those around him after the crime. The word she used was he was a psychopath and he would not be bothered by the crime. I need to go back and listen to that portion of the episode as I found it very enlightening.

It was nice to finally hear from a profiler about BG. It is scary to think that he would go back to his life as if nothing happened and appear as a normal person to the world. This episode is by far the most informative.

 

[somequestions]

So you think he is at least 55. Interesting. If I'm looking at the second sketch I don't see someone that old. The first sketch, though, yes, he could be. If I'm looking at the video I think he could be anywhere from 18 to 55.

I disregard both the sketches as police trying to use the public in order to get someone to call in a tip on a person they think may be the killer. Then they hope when they get that call or tip that the person ends up being the killer by linking them probably with some type of forensic evidence found out at the crime scene. I am focusing on the video and my own opinion of a truck driver I saw once who I thought matched the description from the video. I do not believe either sketch is an accurate description of the killer although I think the first one is closer than the second one, at least in terms of age.

I also wanted to clarify my answer to question #2 as well. Obviously the girls were murdered, but I did not go into it further. We will never know whether the girls may have interacted with the man on the bridge before he decided to murder them. However I think this person must have a strong dislike/hatred of children. I think the idea of two children is unique. As I wrote in an earlier post, one of the victims in this case, whether it be Abby or Libby, probably witnessed the other being murdered. And then one of them would have been well aware of what was about to happen to them too. It is hard to comprehend.

 

[cujenn81]

Did anyone see Kelsi's tweet? Just wondering if something is going on or just gossip? Anyone have any idea?

Yup, I saw it and thought something was up and came straight here to see what was happening. Doesn't look like anything at this point.

Ahhh... I guess KG was more or less just announcing that John Walsh is doing a new show about the case.

Delphi murders: John Walsh to spotlight 2017 Abby and Libby case in Investigation Discovery show

O/T: This is my first time quoting multiple posts and I’m really impressed with myself for figuring it out!

 

[helenann2k]

If this isn't appropriate here, I apologize and please remove. With the stay-at-home orders, a lot of people have taken to walking the local trails. I did so with my husband this weekend, and it changed the way I think of this case. I have only occasionally checked in to this thread lately, and it was not on my mind at all. But when walking this relatively easy wooded trail to a deserted lake, a man came up behind us, getting too close for comfort (not following the 6-foot rule). He made a comment about the lake and kept getting closer. My husband decided to move up the trail, I was getting cold and headed back the way we came, slowly. When I saw my husband turning towards me, the man was just behind him. He had a very strange gait, very noticeable. And a cap on his head. And then it hit me, we were on a well-known trail but in the middle of nowhere, really, and this stranger was the only other person around. Then I remembered BG's gait. I decided to take a video of my husband approaching me, and made it obvious, telling him to wave. The man looked vey uncomfortable, and then started walking quickly, to move ahead of us. After he was far enough away, I told my husband to get a photo of him when possible. Then the man stopped. He unzipped his jacket and took off his gloves and reached inside his jacket. At that moment I realized how vulnerable we were. He could have a gun. No one else was around. I told my husband to be prepared to fight or run. But the man just stood looking down...at his phone! We went ahead, relieved, but after a few minutes we noticed the man was nowhere in sight behind us. He had stopped. He was avoiding us. This man was older than BG, I would guess, otherwise I'd have called in a hint ( I have the details), even though I live nowhere near Delphi. But now I feel BG could be anywhere. He could be a trail hiker. He could go all over the country to trails, waiting for the right time and the right victims. There doesn't need to be a specific target in a specific state. There could be a general plan he follows, walking trails with weapon concealed, looking for an opportunity.

 

[rosesfromangels]

If this isn't appropriate here, I apologize and please remove. With the stay-at-home orders, a lot of people have taken to walking the local trails. I did so with my husband this weekend, and it changed the way I think of this case. I have only occasionally checked in to this thread lately, and it was not on my mind at all. But when walking this relatively easy wooded trail to a deserted lake, a man came up behind us, getting too close for comfort (not following the 6-foot rule). He made a comment about the lake and kept getting closer. My husband decided to move up the trail, I was getting cold and headed back the way we came, slowly. When I saw my husband turning towards me, the man was just behind him. He had a very strange gait, very noticeable. And a cap on his head. And then it hit me, we were on a well-known trail but in the middle of nowhere, really, and this stranger was the only other person around. Then I remembered BG's gait. I decided to take a video of my husband approaching me, and made it obvious, telling him to wave. The man looked vey uncomfortable, and then started walking quickly, to move ahead of us. After he was far enough away, I told my husband to get a photo of him when possible. Then the man stopped. He unzipped his jacket and took off his gloves and reached inside his jacket. At that moment I realized how vulnerable we were. He could have a gun. No one else was around. I told my husband to be prepared to fight or run. But the man just stood looking down...at his phone! We went ahead, relieved, but after a few minutes we noticed the man was nowhere in sight behind us. He had stopped. He was avoiding us. This man was older than BG, I would guess, otherwise I'd have called in a hint ( I have the details), even though I live nowhere near Delphi. But now I feel BG could be anywhere. He could be a trail hiker. He could go all over the country to trails, waiting for the right time and the right victims. There doesn't need to be a specific target in a specific state. There could be a general plan he follows, walking trails with weapon concealed, looking for an opportunity.

This is one of the pitfalls (or benefits) of being a Websleuther. Everyone is a POI until proven otherwise. : /

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Charlot123]

I can see some of the points, but not all. I hunted for years in LA, VA and MO. I hunted squirrels, rabbits, quail, dove, turkey, duck and deer mostly. We cleaned and ate the wild game. HOWEVER, shooting another human being is something I would find difficult even in self-defense or in war. And I was in the military, knowing the later was a possibility. I've read at least account by a SWAT sniper who used to be a hunter and after having to kill another person he stated he knew at the time it would take a while to get over it. At the time, he stated that he thought to himself he might never go deer hunting again after seeing what he did to another person.

I had differing thoughts on what was in this killer's mind that day. After hearing the profiler, I'm leaning more toward a psychopath. To be sure not all psychopaths are killers. For that I would recommend "Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work" by Paul Babiak and Robert Hare. I've heard Babiak speak at a conference and it was interesting.

@JnRyan, but you can eat your catch or kill, with good appetite, right? I never hunted (get overwhelmed with existential thoughts, lol), but I can never eat my catch. So I stopped fishing. Had I not, I am positive I’d be able to eventually eat it.

About the military - it is not only scary to kill others. It is very scary to be in the field where you are ready to die at another person’s order. MOO.

But with time, people get used to killing at war. Does this habit stay with them in regular life? Phil Zimbardo wrote a lot about this side of the humans in his timeless “The Lucifer effect”.

In short, I don’t know the definition of a psychopath. I don’t know why he killed them.

 

[Charlot123]

I hadn't looked at Twitter for quite awhile for Delphi Murders. How did they finally get rid of the poster who continually and probably slanderously insisted it was certain people , and posted their pictures?

I don’t know, but good that they did.
I think in terms of legality, freedom of speech overweights defamation, but how these unfounded accusations could affect the lives of the accused, i can’t even imagine.

We have the whole “pool” of POIs who were (still are) accused by certain online posters. Good that WS drew the line early.

These accusations come in waves; now it seems “that very” family of two men is having an online break, but someone else is not.

It seems the online community gravitates towards the idea that someone very positive, the pillar of the community, or maybe someone very popular in Delphi, did it.

It could have started with Leasenby’s phrase, early into the investigation, that everyone would be shocked to find out who did it.

I don’t think the portrait of the YBG helped at all. (I am so darn lucky that neither of my neighbors looks like YBG, lol).

But we have a certain constant pool, of 5-6 people, and what really concerns me is that maybe one of them is guilty; but the rest are innocent.

And I hope LE does solve this case, because all of the innocent ones eventually deserve big “I am sorry” from the Internet community.

 

[Charlot123]

If this isn't appropriate here, I apologize and please remove. With the stay-at-home orders, a lot of people have taken to walking the local trails. I did so with my husband this weekend, and it changed the way I think of this case. I have only occasionally checked in to this thread lately, and it was not on my mind at all. But when walking this relatively easy wooded trail to a deserted lake, a man came up behind us, getting too close for comfort (not following the 6-foot rule). He made a comment about the lake and kept getting closer. My husband decided to move up the trail, I was getting cold and headed back the way we came, slowly. When I saw my husband turning towards me, the man was just behind him. He had a very strange gait, very noticeable. And a cap on his head. And then it hit me, we were on a well-known trail but in the middle of nowhere, really, and this stranger was the only other person around. Then I remembered BG's gait. I decided to take a video of my husband approaching me, and made it obvious, telling him to wave. The man looked vey uncomfortable, and then started walking quickly, to move ahead of us. After he was far enough away, I told my husband to get a photo of him when possible. Then the man stopped. He unzipped his jacket and took off his gloves and reached inside his jacket. At that moment I realized how vulnerable we were. He could have a gun. No one else was around. I told my husband to be prepared to fight or run. But the man just stood looking down...at his phone! We went ahead, relieved, but after a few minutes we noticed the man was nowhere in sight behind us. He had stopped. He was avoiding us. This man was older than BG, I would guess, otherwise I'd have called in a hint ( I have the details), even though I live nowhere near Delphi. But now I feel BG could be anywhere. He could be a trail hiker. He could go all over the country to trails, waiting for the right time and the right victims. There doesn't need to be a specific target in a specific state. There could be a general plan he follows, walking trails with weapon concealed, looking for an opportunity.

People can still be disappearing from the trails in your area. I think you could at least report him to the local police.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Ahhh... I guess KG was more or less just announcing that John Walsh is doing a new show about the case.

Delphi murders: John Walsh to spotlight 2017 Abby and Libby case in Investigation Discovery show

O/T: This is my first time quoting multiple posts and I’m really impressed with myself for figuring it out!

I think maybe the part about nobody’s been arrested until LE says so might be in response to a rumor floating around that day in less reliable areas that an arrest had been made, which of course, was not true.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This is one of the pitfalls (or benefits) of being a Websleuther. Everyone is a POI until proven otherwise. : /

amateur opinion and speculation

You are right, rosesfromangels!
The crux is with having a POI as a Websleuther (and if the investigation of a double murder is lasting for 3 years), you will find more murders, the POI could have done also. Another state, another victim, female, killed or dumped at an area like MHB area: bridge, trails, park, forest, lake, creek, happened in broad daylight, killer escaped unseen, car witnessed or not (any way it was never his own car, I think). Always risky behavior by the killer, it seems.
Male victims I haven't considered, because I didn't stumble over a case yet, which reminded me of the Delphi -killer. Who knows, if there are even male victims, as long as one doesn't know the motive?

6000 bill boards in 46 states weren't enough to find him, because the pic of BG is so very blurry and he "camouflaged" himself so well. Idk, if he was underway in a part of the 46 states "only" or maybe even in Canada, for example. Or in Europe, or in ..... it never ends re assuming, where the killer might have murdered also before. We don't know.
I beg, he will be found, before Covid-19 takes him away, then without justice for Abby and Libby (and maybe other victims). MOO

 

[cujenn81]

I don’t know, but good that they did.
I think in terms of legality, freedom of speech overweights defamation, but how these unfounded accusations could affect the lives of the accused, i can’t even imagine.

We have the whole “pool” of POIs who were (still are) accused by certain online posters. Good that WS drew the line early.

These accusations come in waves; now it seems “that very” family of two men is having an online break, but someone else is not.

It seems the online community gravitates towards the idea that someone very positive, the pillar of the community, or maybe someone very popular in Delphi, did it.

It could have started with Leasenby’s phrase, early into the investigation, that everyone would be shocked to find out who did it.

I don’t think the portrait of the YBG helped at all. (I am so darn lucky that neither of my neighbors looks like YBG, lol).

But we have a certain constant pool, of 5-6 people, and what really concerns me is that maybe one of them is guilty; but the rest are innocent.

And I hope LE does solve this case, because all of the innocent ones eventually deserve big “I am sorry” from the Internet community.

I get the same impression from the community but don’t really understand it. If BG is a well known and popular member of the Delphi community, why would LG surreptitiously record him on the bridge? Also... if BG is such a great chameleon who can easily hide behind his (seemingly) affable personality, why wouldn't he continue this facade during his encounter with the 16-year-old witness (who later described him as “creepy”) on the trails that day?

This theory doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[rosesfromangels]

You are right, rosesfromangels!
The crux is with having a POI as a Websleuther (and if the investigation of a double murder is lasting for 3 years), you will find more murders, the POI could have done also. Another state, another victim, female, killed or dumped at an area like MHB area: bridge, trails, park, forest, lake, creek, happened in broad daylight, killer escaped unseen, car witnessed or not (any way it was never his own car, I think). Always risky behavior by the killer, it seems.
Male victims I haven't considered, because I didn't stumble over a case yet, which reminded me of the Delphi -killer. Who knows, if there are even male victims, as long as one doesn't know the motive?

6000 bill boards in 46 states weren't enough to find him, because the pic of BG is so very blurry and he "camouflaged" himself so well. Idk, if he was underway in a part of the 46 states "only" or maybe even in Canada, for example. Or in Europe, or in ..... it never ends re assuming, where the killer might have murdered also before. We don't know.
I beg, he will be found, before Covid-19 takes him away, then without justice for Abby and Libby (and maybe other victims). MOO

Great post. I hadn’t considered male victims as a possibility; good call out.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Blue Amethyst]

I think it could have been a situation that just the fact of his circumstances family wise, that may have "covered" for him, possibly made him seem less likely a suspect to local LE.

The influence on the sketch being release first could have been FBI related. I think it was a case of thinking it was not a local, it must be a random stranger from another area. Two people were publically reported as being searched right away, one who's land the girls were found and another from a family close by.

After that I think the FBI profilers may have steered the direction of things to more a drifter suspect with the old BG sketch. Then something happened in early 2019 that changed that back to more local suspect. I think it might have been that man, CE, was arrested for crimes against children. He was a dead ringer for the first sketch. I don't just all conjecture and AJMO.

Something has always bothered me about the CE guy. To me he looks like BG. I went back to 2017 and read comments on the bridge picture. A few days prior to the murder, a man of his description had been seen on the trails.

One young man even had an altercation with the person and also described what he was wearing. He was supposedly dirty and wearing BG like clothes.

This is my own opinion but how did the younger person they now call BG end up wearing the same clothes. This has bothered me since the beginning. Coincidence..I think not.

Maybe they need to revisit the older man again. Maybe he lied. Maybe there was an older and a younger man both there. It still confuses me.

 

[Ozoner]

Something has always bothered me about the CE guy. To me he looks like BG. I went back to 2017 and read comments on the bridge picture. A few days prior to the murder, a man of his description had been seen on the trails.

One young man even had an altercation with the person and also described what he was wearing. He was supposedly dirty and wearing BG like clothes.

This is my own opinion but how did the younger person they now call BG end up wearing the same clothes. This has bothered me since the beginning. Coincidence..I think not.

Maybe they need to revisit the older man again. Maybe he lied. Maybe there was an older and a younger man both there. It still confuses me.

Maybe the original BG sketch was based on the guy seen a few days beforehand.

 

[JnRyan]

@JnRyan, but you can eat your catch or kill, with good appetite, right? I never hunted (get overwhelmed with existential thoughts, lol), but I can never eat my catch. So I stopped fishing. Had I not, I am positive I’d be able to eventually eat it.

About the military - it is not only scary to kill others. It is very scary to be in the field where you are ready to die at another person’s order. MOO.

But with time, people get used to killing at war. Does this habit stay with them in regular life? Phil Zimbardo wrote a lot about this side of the humans in his timeless “The Lucifer effect”.

In short, I don’t know the definition of a psychopath. I don’t know why he killed them.

Yes, I like venison, but it can't be cooked like beef or pork. It is very lean meat requires some fat to be introduced in cooking, especially frying. Quail is another I really liked. However, while I liked hunting doves or ducks, I never ate them because I did not like the meat, but at least one member of family did like it. Were it not for that I wouldn't have hunted them. I never hunted anything I or a member of my family would not eat.

Being a member of the military, it is somewhat offensive for others to hang on to the myth that most military 'get used to killing' in war. Most never do. I have at least relative who could never get out of veteran's military facilities due to his PTSD. Yes, part of that is due to the stress of just being in the field, but part of that is not getting over the fact that he took someone's life. My own father spent over 2 years in combat and his stories were almost always about non-combat stories about life in the military and what he and others did in their down time. BUT decades after the war if he fell asleep watching TV we had to be careful how we woke him up. Family members who knew him before he went into the military said he wasn't like that before. Of all the special operations men I've known I've NEVER heard even one talk about what they did in combat.

I've heard of Zimbardo's work. But Zimbardo to the best of my knowledge has no first hand experience with combat and almost all of his work involves life in a correctional facility. He did do some work on Abu Ghraib, but even his opinions on that are not universally accepted by those in the same field of work. Some have tried to extrapolate his work into the combat experience, but most who deal with veterans disagree that being involuntarily imprisoned is not the same as those who voluntarily join the military. If you want to read a more relevant book about veterans, killing in combat and PTSD, I would recommend "Haunted by Combat: Understanding PTSD in War Veterans".

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, I like venison, but it can't be cooked like beef or pork. It is very lean meat requires some fat to be introduced in cooking, especially frying. Quail is another I really liked. However, while I liked hunting doves or ducks, I never ate them because I did not like the meat, but at least one member of family did like it. Were it not for that I wouldn't have hunted them. I never hunted anything I or a member of my family would not eat.

Being a member of the military, it is somewhat offensive for others to hang on to the myth that most military 'get used to killing' in war. Most never do. I have at least relative who could never get out of veteran's military facilities due to his PTSD. Yes, part of that is due to the stress of just being in the field, but part of that is not getting over the fact that he took someone's life. My own father spent over 2 years in combat and his stories were almost always about non-combat stories about life in the military and what he and others did in their down time. BUT decades after the war if he fell asleep watching TV we had to be careful how we woke him up. Family members who knew him before he went into the military said he wasn't like that before. Of all the special operations men I've known I've NEVER heard even one talk about what they did in combat.

I've heard of Zimbardo's work. But Zimbardo to the best of my knowledge has no first hand experience with combat and almost all of his work involves life in a correctional facility. He did do some work on Abu Ghraib, but even his opinions on that are universally accepted by those in the same field of work. Some have tried to extrapolate his work into the combat experience, but most who deal with veterans disagree that being involuntarily imprisoned is not the same as those who voluntarily join the military. If you want to read a more relevant book about veterans, killing in combat and PTSD, I would recommend "Haunted by Combat: Understanding PTSD in War Veterans".

JnRyan very well said and thank you for your service. My Dad was WWII Bushmaster, jungle warfare teams. He never discussed in detail only general terms his experiences. then was a state police for over 30 years, never shot his gun. He had a happy homelife and lived long. PTSD could turn some into aggressors. Like you said so well, most never got used to the killing, quite the contrary, most come away with a greater value for life.

 

[sunshineray]

Something has always bothered me about the CE guy. To me he looks like BG. I went back to 2017 and read comments on the bridge picture. A few days prior to the murder, a man of his description had been seen on the trails.

One young man even had an altercation with the person and also described what he was wearing. He was supposedly dirty and wearing BG like clothes.

This is my own opinion but how did the younger person they now call BG end up wearing the same clothes. This has bothered me since the beginning. Coincidence..I think not.

Maybe they need to revisit the older man again. Maybe he lied. Maybe there was an older and a younger man both there. It still confuses me.

It is confusing but I guess somehow LE eliminated him as BG. I think whatever small amount of DNA they have from the crime scene must have been way off base with his full DNA profile. That or he was absolutely confirmed to be somewhere else during the nurders.