Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[TL4S]

The thing you have to remember about profilers is that they are giving you their opinion based on years of experience studying crimes. I thought the profiler on the Down the Hill podcast came off as very intelligent. She simply was stating what she thinks based on her years of experience studying and probably talking to various criminals.

I think about the only part I disagreed with was when she said he planned the crime. What she may have meant is that he planned the crime if the right opportunity presented itself. So basically he was familiar enough to know the area could be used to force two girls off the trail to some desolate area away from the bridge so he could do what he wanted to do. But I would be very surprised if he knew he was on someone's private property.

I do not think it is a stretch to guess that the individual who committed this crime probably has visited numerous trails, forest preserves, etc. But I think, in my opinion, that just because he may know about the Monon High Bridge trail does not mean he has to be from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

She did indeed come off as very intelligent. Don't get me wrong, I would never try to dissuade from her experienced opinions. She only has the same public information we do, though, which I'm sure is limiting. I guess all our own experiences (albeit not formal training) give us each a unique perspective.

 

[turanna25]

We know that Libby had the app Kik, which has been widely condemned. Not even sure that LE can trace that app. Anyone familiar with it?

I had the Kik app a few years ago... you can see your old convos. So, if they were able to get into her phone (which it seems they were or else we wouldn't have what we have) then I'd assume her kik convos would have been looked into as well... the only thing i'm not sure of.. is if the other person deletes their kik account I think you lose that convo and info. But i'm not 100% on that.

 

[ab01]

I had the Kik app a few years ago... you can see your old convos. So, if they were able to get into her phone (which it seems they were or else we wouldn't have what we have) then I'd assume her kik convos would have been looked into as well... the only thing i'm not sure of.. is if the other person deletes their kik account I think you lose that convo and info. But i'm not 100% on that.

Despite what many believe, nothing digital is totally untraceable. There’s always some kind of trail that can be traced. Even vpn tunnels, so Called untraceable apps etc leave bits of data that can be traced by digital forensic professionals. They had the victims phone/phones very early on in this case. With all the time that has now passed, I think it’s much more likely that BG was simply out hunting for victims and for the right opportunity and took it. Jmo

 

[minazoe]

so creepy. mOO

 

[rosesfromangels]

Despite what many believe, nothing digital is totally untraceable. There’s always some kind of trail that can be traced. Even vpn tunnels, so Called untraceable apps etc leave bits of data that can be traced by digital forensic professionals. They had the victims phone/phones very early on in this case. With all the time that has now passed, I think it’s much more likely that BG was simply out hunting for victims and for the right opportunity and took it. Jmo

Here's a good high level explanation of the "dark web", the challenges it presents for LE, and the progress being made to crack it.

Dark Web explained – from drugs and guns to the Chloe Ayling kidnapping, a look inside the encrypted network

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Ozoner]

Here's a good high level explanation of the "dark web", the challenges it presents for LE, and the progress being made to crack it.

Dark Web explained – from drugs and guns to the Chloe Ayling kidnapping, a look inside the encrypted network

Amateur opinion and speculation

You've presented quite a bit of good information on the dark web, sexting with Kik, etc., but you still haven't tied it to this case in any way, shape, or form. There's no evidence of anything like that in this case.
-
I'm sure that Abby and Libby had other friends. Don't you think that if they were involved in anything like that, they might have bragged about it to their friends? Don't you think it might have come out?

 

[rosesfromangels]

You've presented quite a bit of good information on the dark web, sexting with Kik, etc., but you still haven't tied it to this case in any way, shape, or form. There's no evidence of anything like that in this case.

You and I have different theories on this case, and I know you don't subscribe to mine. It's good to have opposing views and examine from various angles.

To your point, you are right....no evidence. That would be consistent with the dark web, unless there has been some extremely sophisticated forensics that have transpired, or might still be in progress.

Admittedly, however, you are right. I have nothing concrete to anchor this to. That said, I have a little amateur process I follow which is similar to the fictional portrayal of Dr. Tony Hill in the "Wire in the Blood" series. (If you haven't seen it, highly recommend). I do geospatial mapping and mash it with whatever data I can find. Then, I apply my own layer of deductive reasoning.

Of course, it's all amateur opinion and speculation, but on occasion I hit a bulls eye. I don't feel that confident here, but it's a good working theory.

Hope that all makes sense. Always appreciate your posts, which require me to examine my logic.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

You've presented quite a bit of good information on the dark web, sexting with Kik, etc., but you still haven't tied it to this case in any way, shape, or form. There's no evidence of anything like that in this case.
-
I'm sure that Abby and Libby had other friends. Don't you think that if they were involved in anything like that, they might have bragged about it to their friends? Don't you think it might have come out?

I also doubt the killer was a close friend to either Libby and Abby. However that doesn’t discount the possibility somebody with nefarious intentions somehow learned the girls were at the bridge that day through social media.

I’m thinking of an online stalking situation where Libby and/or Abby had no idea they were the target. A few ways that could possibly have occurred, there’s probably more -
- catfishing.
- a cellphone used or viewed by SC recipient’s (aka friend) family members including siblings or even friends of siblings.
- unprotected public wifi or hijacking of a friend’s wifi.
- a SC monitoring tool unknowingly used remotely as a spy tool on a friends device.

just my thoughts....

 

[MistyWaters]

I found what I was looking for. Much like the existence of DNA connecting to the killer, LE has never yet conclusively ruled social media in or out, unless I missed it.

ISP on Delphi murders: "Everyone is a suspect"
Delphi, Indiana: State police say technology is key in the search for Delphi killer
“We’re checking their cell phones, we’re checking their social media places Twitter, Facebook and that to see if there’s some type of connection there,” said Sgt. Riley. “We’re looking at every possible option.”....”

 

[Ozoner]

I found what I was looking for. Much like the existence of DNA connecting to the killer, LE has never yet conclusively ruled social media in or out.

ISP on Delphi murders: "Everyone is a suspect"
“We’re checking their cell phones, we’re checking their social media places Twitter, Facebook and that to see if there’s some type of connection there,” said Sgt. Riley. “We’re looking at every possible option.”....”

That article dates to four days after the murders, before the investigation had found any kind of focus. LE seldom rules anything out publicly, but there's been little mention of the internet angle since February of 2017; it doesn't appear to be a priority.

 

[sunshineray]

I also doubt the killer was a close friend to either Libby and Abby. However that doesn’t discount the possibility somebody with nefarious intentions somehow learned the girls were at the bridge that day through social media.

I’m thinking of an online stalking situation where Libby and/or Abby had no idea they were the target. A few ways that could possibly have occurred, there’s probably more -
- catfishing.
- a cellphone used or viewed by SC recipient’s (aka friend) family members including siblings or even friends of siblings.
- unprotected public wifi or hijacking of a friend’s wifi.
- a SC monitoring tool unknowingly used remotely as a spy tool on a friends device.

just my thoughts....

I think all of those you mentioned are possibilities, only that, they are possible. I also think, to enlarge on the more spur of the moment killer, that the killer was possibly there with others that day for another reason. Too many were around that day to disgard the notion that one of them, with violent inclinations, took advantage of a situation. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

That article dates to four days after the murders, before the investigation had found any kind of focus. LE seldom rules anything out publicly, but there's been little mention of the internet angle since February of 2017; it doesn't appear to be a priority.

LE did say at that April 2019 press conference that they were basically starting over. I'm paraphrasing. With all the different social media apps out there and ways for kids to connect with anyone, I don't think we can rule very much out. Especially since we really know so little official. JMO

 

[mom2chloe]

Respectfully; I disagree with your statement(s). There are many young female victims that have been murdered, assaulted, or kidnapped (randomly) by an unknown perpetrator. Many of them in rural/wooded settings. Let's take a look at a few (there are many more here on WS- not taking into consideration the cases that aren't):

CT- Kathleen Flynn
CT - CT - Kathleen Flynn, 11, Ponus Ridge, 23 Sept 1986
NC- Hania Noelia Aguilar
Found Deceased - NC - Hania Noelia Aguilar, 13, abducted and murdered, Lumberton, 5 Nov 2018 *Arrest* - #5
CANADA- Marrisa Shen
Canada - Marrisa Shen, 13, found murdered, Burnaby, BC, 18 July 2017 *Arrest*
MO- Angie Housman
MO - MO - Angie Housman, 9, St Louis, 18 Nov 1993 *ARREST*
AL- Cupcake McKinney
Found Deceased - AL - Kamille "Cupcake" McKinney, 3, kidnapped from party, Birmingham, 12 Oct 2019 *Arrests* #7
MI- Ally Brueger
MI - MI - Alexandra Brueger, 31, Fatally Shot While Jogging, Rose Twp, 30 July 2016 #5
WI-Jayme Closs
Found Alive - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #44
WA-Lindsay Baum
FOUND DECEASED - WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009
AL- Aniah Blanchard
Found Deceased - AL - Aniah Haley Blanchard, 19, Auburn, Lee County, 23 Oct 2019 *Arrest* #5
TX- Salem Sabatka
Found Safe - TX - SS, 8, Fort Worth, kidnapped while walking w/mother, 18 May 2019
IA- Mollie Tibbets
Found Deceased - IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #47

I have no idea why these girls (Abby and Libby) were murdered on this day, in this location, but (at this point) I do believe it was a random crime of opportunity. I believe this based on numerous statements from investigators : "the killer had no way of knowing these girls would be at the MHB on 02/13". (Please refer to the many articles, press conferences, Scene of the Crime, and HLN's Down The Hill podcasts).

While I am not claiming that the girls were murdered by a serial killer, I believe some of the same circumstances may apply when choosing victim(s).

No one knows for sure why a (serial) killer will choose a certain individual as their victim. When asked why, (serial) killers often give a wide range of answers regarding the reasons for their murders. The most common belief is that the killer wants to feel complete control over another person.
[...] the circumstances of each murder should indicate that the killer felt a sense of dominance over the people they have killed. The victims must also be vulnerable to the killer in some way, a characteristic which indicates that the killer has sought to achieve a feeling of superiority.
Serial Killer Victim Selection - Crime Museum

Thanks for your in depth look into these other cases. I will have to give them a looksie very soon!

 

[cujenn81]

It's happens a lot, but not the way you are describing it. PREDATORS are predators. And they go about their business but always have their eyes open for that perfect opportunity.

So I wouldn't say that the killer randomly 'waited there' for someone to come along. More likely he was out hunting that day, and he went a few places. But at this exact place and this exact time, he came upon two young innocent vulnerable girls, in a moment when no one else was around, and in a place that he could control them both. And he seized the opportunity.

I have also wondered if he may have seen the girls earlier with their sister. Did they stop at the gas station or a convenience store on the way? Because he may have followed them and seen the girls being dropped off alone, and decided to follow them in the park.

I personally believe this is exactly what happened - 100%

 

[cujenn81]

I had the Kik app a few years ago... you can see your old convos. So, if they were able to get into her phone (which it seems they were or else we wouldn't have what we have) then I'd assume her kik convos would have been looked into as well... the only thing i'm not sure of.. is if the other person deletes their kik account I think you lose that convo and info. But i'm not 100% on that.

Yes, I agree. They would have quickly obtained access to that info. That's how LE determined who killed Nicole Lovell.

 

[Charlot123]

Again, they emphatically stated that no scenario has been ruled out.

As they have made no changes to their position, their position stands- until demonstrated otherwise. Can you demonstrate otherwise?


Fooling the FBI? Try reading my posts.

There is apparently no need to "fool the FBI". Evidently, some forms of social media communication cannot be retrieved by anybody. That includes the FBI.

An example of how common technology today can stymie the FBI are the California Jihader's phones. Retrieving the erased information would be impossible- even for them.

The FBI spent a lot of time in Court with Apple. A third party (not even the FBI had the expertise "in house") then showed them away to disable the erase function. FBI–Apple encryption dispute - Wikipedia

Respectfully snipped by me.

I remember a funny experience. FB is not the epitome of cyber security, but they are rich enough to hire good programmers.

So one morning - oh, shock! - the followers of Richard Dawkins click on his FB, and see that it is decorated with black standards with Allah’s name on them... all over the Facebook.

The followers of Dawkins are not easily fazed. The reaction was, “well, any religious group, any country, has these young hackers, bored out of their minds. Probably, 16-year old Pakistani kids.”

It took Facebook quite a while to clean the job of young hooligans that emerged overnight.

 

[jamiek1963]

We have been looking at the film for such a long time, it is impossible to say. Depends on the frame one is viewing. I’d still think he has an odd gait, but about “heavy set”, not sure. The jacket looks generic to me.

I don't think he's heavy set the jacket appears to be concealing a weapon. In the audio clip "down the hill" it sounds to me that he is racking a round in the chamber of a gun. Obviously he didn't fire a weapon as people would have heard it but I believe he had one.

 

[Trebor5591]

I initially knew of the girls underwear found in the creek via the recordings, but "basement" talk isn't allowed up here. Later, it was published, I believe in the "Down the Hill" podcast. Also, a cigarette butt that looked "2-3 days old" was found. But with so many searchers looking, it could have been dropped by any one of them. And are the panties linked to the crime? They were found in the water, that's all we know.

I don't understand what you mean by "basement" talk.

Are the panties linked to the crime? They must be . Why else would a girl's panties be found a few hundred feet from the murdered girls, floating in the creek under the bridge, the day after the murder? There's no other reasonable explanation, and they strongly support the conjecture that one or both of the girls were sexually molested.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't understand what you mean by "basement" talk.

Are the panties linked to the crime? They must be . Why else would a girl's panties be found a few hundred feet from the murdered girls, floating in the creek under the bridge, the day after the murder? There's no other reasonable explanation, and they strongly support the conjecture that one or both of the girls were sexually molested.

I’ve often wondered how any clothing, particularly something lightweight such as undergarments, would’ve been found just floating in a creek under the bridge so close by almost one entire day later. Why wouldn’t the current of the creek have moved it downriver for miles by then? I don’t know the answer but that scenario seems a bit unusual IMO.

 

[Trebor5591]

I’ve often wondered how any clothing, particularly something lightweight such as undergarments, would’ve been found just floating in a creek under the bridge so close by almost one entire day later. Why wouldn’t the current of the creek have moved it downriver for miles by then? I don’t know the answer but that scenario seems a bit unusual IMO.

snagged on something, would be my guess.