Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[MistyWaters]

snagged on something, would be my guess.

I suppose that’s possible, although somewhat contrary to the definition of the word “floating”. Plus anything snagged could’ve also been there for months. If there was a swimming hole under the bridge, it seems it’s not unusual to find abandoned or discarded underwear nearby.

I’ve also wondered why the searchers would’ve have immediately noticed floating/snagged clothing during the last glimmer of daylight during the evening search or early the next morning, observed by standing looking down from the bridge. Maybe they did but as LE hasn’t conclusively stated this to be a fact and related to this case, we don’t know that it is. Another question mark.

 

[Charlot123]

Respectfully; I disagree with your statement(s). There are many young female victims that have been murdered, assaulted, or kidnapped (randomly) by an unknown perpetrator. Many of them in rural/wooded settings. Let's take a look at a few (there are many more here on WS- not taking into consideration the cases that aren't):

CT- Kathleen Flynn
CT - CT - Kathleen Flynn, 11, Ponus Ridge, 23 Sept 1986
NC- Hania Noelia Aguilar
Found Deceased - NC - Hania Noelia Aguilar, 13, abducted and murdered, Lumberton, 5 Nov 2018 *Arrest* - #5
CANADA- Marrisa Shen
Canada - Marrisa Shen, 13, found murdered, Burnaby, BC, 18 July 2017 *Arrest*
MO- Angie Housman
MO - MO - Angie Housman, 9, St Louis, 18 Nov 1993 *ARREST*
AL- Cupcake McKinney
Found Deceased - AL - Kamille "Cupcake" McKinney, 3, kidnapped from party, Birmingham, 12 Oct 2019 *Arrests* #7
MI- Ally Brueger
MI - MI - Alexandra Brueger, 31, Fatally Shot While Jogging, Rose Twp, 30 July 2016 #5
WI-Jayme Closs
Found Alive - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #44
WA-Lindsay Baum
FOUND DECEASED - WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009
AL- Aniah Blanchard
Found Deceased - AL - Aniah Haley Blanchard, 19, Auburn, Lee County, 23 Oct 2019 *Arrest* #5
TX- Salem Sabatka
Found Safe - TX - SS, 8, Fort Worth, kidnapped while walking w/mother, 18 May 2019
IA- Mollie Tibbets
Found Deceased - IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #47

I have no idea why these girls (Abby and Libby) were murdered on this day, in this location, but (at this point) I do believe it was a random crime of opportunity. I believe this based on numerous statements from investigators : "the killer had no way of knowing these girls would be at the MHB on 02/13". (Please refer to the many articles, press conferences, Scene of the Crime, and HLN's Down The Hill podcasts).

While I am not claiming that the girls were murdered by a serial killer, I believe some of the same circumstances may apply when choosing victim(s).

No one knows for sure why a (serial) killer will choose a certain individual as their victim. When asked why, (serial) killers often give a wide range of answers regarding the reasons for their murders. The most common belief is that the killer wants to feel complete control over another person.
[...] the circumstances of each murder should indicate that the killer felt a sense of dominance over the people they have killed. The victims must also be vulnerable to the killer in some way, a characteristic which indicates that the killer has sought to achieve a feeling of superiority.
Serial Killer Victim Selection - Crime Museum

@JDough, thank you.

I looked through one case, Lindsay Baum. (She was abducted in WA, where several young women disappeared from the trails).

But she disappeared in Grays Harbor, and probably not far from the area where Donna Van Zandt’s car was found. In Neilton. Same county, and while the forest is separating the two points, there are several towns on the road arc connecting them.

From the articles, they assume Lindsay’s case was the crime of opportunity, but she might have known her assailant.

My question, if there is a proximity between McLeary and Neilton, could there be a serial killer operating in the area? A child disappeared in 2009, a woman’s car found not so far in 2014. Does the guy have a lair in Grays Harbor? And does it make sense to look for more remains in Ellensberg where Lindsay’s remains were found?

Here is Donna’s thread here.

WA - WA - Donna Van Zandt, 33, Quinault, April 2014

 

[Yemelyan]

I suppose that’s possible, although somewhat contrary to the definition of the word “floating”. Plus anything snagged could’ve also been there for months. If there was a swimming hole under the bridge, it seems it’s not unusual to find abandoned or discarded underwear nearby.

I’ve also wondered why the searchers would’ve have immediately noticed floating/snagged clothing during the last glimmer of daylight during the evening search or early the next morning, observed by standing looking down from the bridge. Maybe they did but as LE hasn’t conclusively stated this to be a fact and related to this case, we don’t know that it is. Another question mark.

There is a photo that is a screen grab of the news helicopter footage from Feb. 14th (the girls had already been found) that shows the police dive team wading in the creek. One member is standing close to a dead tree partially collapsed into the water and IMO it seems like he or she may be standing there to mark the spot where clothes had become entangled in the branches of this tree until evidence teams can collect it.

We know from the words of the Pharos Tribune photographer who was photographing the search on the morning of Feb. 14th that he saw girls' clothing in the creek east of the bridge and knew the girls must have been found nearby. So whatever he saw (he stated he was 75 yards away), he knew on sight that it was female clothing and not just random debris. IMO based on this, it was more than just one pair of underwear found under the bridge.

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[MistyWaters]

There is a photo that is a screen grab of the news helicopter footage from Feb. 14th (the girls had already been found) that shows the police dive team wading in the creek. One member is standing close to a dead tree partially collapsed into the water and IMO it seems like he or she may be standing there to mark the spot where clothes had become entangled in the branches of this tree until evidence teams can collect it.

We know from the words of the Pharos Tribune photographer who was photographing the search on the morning of Feb. 14th that he saw girls' clothing in the creek east of the bridge and knew the girls must have been found nearby. So whatever he saw (he stated he was 75 yards away), he knew on sight that it was female clothing and not just random debris. IMO based on this, it was more than just one pair of underwear found under the bridge.

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I’m sorry, I’m unable to log into FB because I’m not a member. But here’s an aerial video from RTV6 taken from a helicopter. I’ve watched it several times however have never noticed any water search activity possibly related to clothing. I’ve always presumed the river search was for cellphones or some type of weapon because in one of the frames iirc one of the officers is holding what might be a metal detector.

A question I have asked myself while watching it - how likely would a person up in a helicopter be able to conclusively identify “girls clothing” sighted in the river?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

 

[ab01]

I’m sorry, I’m unable to log into FB because I’m not a member. But here’s an aerial video from RTV6 taken from a helicopter. I’ve watched it several times however have never noticed any water search activity possibly related to clothing. I’ve always presumed the river search was for cellphones or some type of weapon because in one of the frames iirc one of the officers is holding what might be a metal detector.

A question I have asked myself while watching it - how likely would a person up in a helicopter be able to conclusively identify “girls clothing” sighted in the river?

One thing. first of all it’s a creek, totally different from a river facts matter imo. And it’s been repeated over and over by multiple posters. It’s even called Deer creek( it’s right in the name)Also there were social media post from a news photographer on his private page referring to what he believed he saw Search and rescue workers retrieving from the water. (Take with a grain of salt obviously). There were also details that seemed to back this story up in the scanner thread. But since we can’t discuss that here you are free to go there and read and scour social media. My personal opinion is that they did most likely find articles that belonged to the girls.

 

[MistyWaters]

One thing. first of all it’s a creek, totally different from a river facts matter imo. And it’s been repeated over and over by multiple posters. It’s even called Deer creek( it’s right in the name)Also there were social media post from a news photographer on his private page referring to what he believed he saw Search and rescue workers retrieving from the water. (Take with a grain of salt obviously). There were also details that seemed to back this story up in the scanner thread. But since we can’t discuss that here you are free to go there and read and scour social media. My personal opinion is that they did most likely find articles that belonged to the girls.

Yes you’re correct, the name is Deer Creek. But in all fairness, it’s far larger than what’s often imagined in reference to “a creek”. Another thing that stood out to me in the video was the steepness of the bank on the northerly side of the creek, compared to maps where of course everything appears totally flat.

 

[JnRyan]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1. I believe he simply walked away. If his vehicle was parked at the abandoned CPS building it is very possible that he could have followed the tree line till he was 2/3's of the way to his vehicle and then walked to 300 and onto his vehicle. Then he simply drove off.
2. I don't believe he has told anyone so far.
3. That anyone knows with some high degree of certainty? No. I would imagine there may be someone or a few people who see a resemblance but for one reason or another don't believe he is the killer.
4. I don't believe he is currently local. However, I believe he either lived in the Delphi area or was a frequent visitor 10-15 years ago. Currently, if he doesn't live in the Indianapolis or Lafayette area, he could be living 100 to 200 or more miles away.
5. I'm not entirely convinced he is serial killer. (See #6.)
6. If he has killed before the victim or victims were different enough that LE hasn't been able to link the murders. IOW, his first victim may have been an older woman, 20-40 years old, for example. OR his victim is currently classified as a missing person and that person's cause of death and the crime scene are not known.
7. I believe the girls were random victims he did not know. He picked the area for the crime and whoever entered it would be his victim or victims.
8. A respected member of the community? If by that you mean someone wealthy, with a high level job or with a high profile in the community, no. I do believe that in his social circle he is respected enough that it would be a surprise to them when he is arrested.
9. No. I believe this guy has a steady job.
10. I used to believe he might be someone who travels as part of his job like a sales rep. But after 3 years I no longer believe that is likely since if he came into the area in recent years just before or after the murders someone in the Delphi area would have recognized him by now.
11. I believe it is possible but not likely.
12. No.

 

[sunshineray]

I’ve often wondered how any clothing, particularly something lightweight such as undergarments, would’ve been found just floating in a creek under the bridge so close by almost one entire day later. Why wouldn’t the current of the creek have moved it downriver for miles by then? I don’t know the answer but that scenario seems a bit unusual IMO.

That creek looked cluttered on the sides. It could have been snagged on sometime, even a bigger rock but most likely some fallen branches or old wood in its path.

 

[ab01]

That creek looked cluttered on the sides. It could have been snagged on sometime, even a bigger rock but most likely some fallen branches or old wood in its path.

Yah it’s not some complex conspiracy imo very simple explanation. Things that get thrown in the water often get hung up. Investigators are well aware what likely is and is not relevant. That’s all that matters IMO

 

[crhedBngr]

My friend just suggested to me, maybe BG is a representative for agricultural machinery, who came around a lot.
Just saying.

Yes, this^^^^.

I shared this story waaay upstream, but I'll share it again.

My small town was rocked by two murders in the 1970's. The perp, who was eventually apprehended, tried and found guilty, repaired agricultural machinery.

He traveled through three states on a regular basis. Kind of like a swing shift.

JMVHO.

 

[windrower]

I don't understand what you mean by "basement" talk.

Are the panties linked to the crime? They must be . Why else would a girl's panties be found a few hundred feet from the murdered girls, floating in the creek under the bridge, the day after the murder? There's no other reasonable explanation, and they strongly support the conjecture that one or both of the girls were sexually molested.

I’ve often wondered how any clothing, particularly something lightweight such as undergarments, would’ve been found just floating in a creek under the bridge so close by almost one entire day later. Why wouldn’t the current of the creek have moved it downriver for miles by then? I don’t know the answer but that scenario seems a bit unusual IMO.

If the clothing was within a few hundred yards of the girls from the time of their deaths, wouldn’t it have been found much sooner? Especially if it was snagged on something before moving further downstream. Seems to me a quick canvas of the entire area would have been done as soon as the girls were found.

How likely is it that the clothing could have been planted by someone shortly before it was found? Tossed off the bridge or flung into the creek by ?? Maybe someone helping with the search?

 

[JDough]

I don't understand what you mean by "basement" talk.

Are the panties linked to the crime? They must be . Why else would a girl's panties be found a few hundred feet from the murdered girls, floating in the creek under the bridge, the day after the murder? There's no other reasonable explanation, and they strongly support the conjecture that one or both of the girls were sexually molested.

I have posted the link to the scanner thread (basement) below. (This is the actual radio transmissions that took place on 02/14, by LE, and emergency responders). For any of our new members; please be sure to read the information on the first page to learn how the thread works (limited discussion, using parenthesis, right or left speaker, NO DISCUSSION (it will be deleted by our amazing MODS) about transmissions on the main thread, etc.). For any of you who have not had a chance to listen- it is a treasure trove of information, and may answer some of the recent questions regarding what may or may not have been found in the creek, the location, and by whom it may have been found by. Our members have done an amazing job of capturing the information, and posting transcripts/times to listen closely.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/liberty-german-and-abigail-williams-scanner-thread.333467/

Happy listening!

 

[MingyMoo]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene?
How did he leave the trail area?
FOOT
How did he leave the Delphi area?
CAR
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
NO
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
YES
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
YES
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
NOT SURE

6) Do you think he has killed before?
NOT SURE
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
NO
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
COULD BE
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
NO
10) Does the killer have a job that involves travel?
POSSIBLE
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
IT HAS CROSSED MY MIND
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?
POSSIBLE

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thanks to everyone who responded to the Day Two questions. Your thoughts are very interesting.
Here are the next group of questions if you’d like to tackle them. Thanks!

Day Three

1) These three questions go together but I think are kinda different but can be answered as one. Goofy me. How do you think the killer left the crime scene? How did he leave the trail area? How did he leave the Delphi area?
2) Do you think the killer told someone else what he did?
3) Do you believe someone, without being told by the killer, knows with certainty, who the killer is?
4) Is the killer local? (Past or present; within 100 miles)
5) Do you think the killer is a serial killer?
6) Do you think he has killed before?
7) Do you think the killer knew or knew of the girls or vice versa?
8) Do you believe the killer is a solid respected member of the community?
9) Do you think he lives a transient lifestyle or is homeless?
10) Does the killer have a
job that involves travel?
11) Do you think the killer may be in law enforcement or some other position of authority?
12) Do you think the killer was involved in anyway with the search for the girls?

1. On foot near cemetery, then via car that was approx 1/4 mile away
2. Yes, his dark web buddies
3. Yes
4. Within 250 miles
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Through social media
8. No, I think he is overall unremarkable
9. No
10. Not necessarily
11. No
12. Maybe

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[IceIce9]

Yes you’re correct, the name is Deer Creek. But in all fairness, it’s far larger than what’s often imagined in reference to “a creek”. Another thing that stood out to me in the video was the steepness of the bank on the northerly side of the creek, compared to maps where of course everything appears totally flat.

View attachment 241012

The name of the township is Deer Creek as well. I know that fact caused confusion with the earliest reports stating the bodies were found in Deer Creek. Some thought that meant the bodies were found in the water of Deer Creek, however, the statement meant they were found in Deer Creek Township.

 

[arielilane]

My friend just suggested to me, maybe BG is a representative for agricultural machinery, who came around a lot.
Just saying.

and a possible connection to CSX. All speculation of course.

 

[Angleterre]

When I look at the photo I keep trying desperately to zoom in, edit, make it sharper! I was hopeful that today's technology could do better than my laptop to bring the facial features and this beautiful photo that Libby took to better quality and really see who this person is! I know the things I see on tv for forensics is a bit of a stretch but really thought we had this technology to do better than this! Frustrating because it is right in front of us and we can't grasp it yet!

There MUST be the technology available because in 1993 In Liverpool, England when 2, year old James Bulger was kidnapped by two 10 year old boys Thompson and Venebles, the CCTV then (27 years ago) was very poor quality and grainy and was unable to be used so Detectives collaborated with NASA and it was NASA that was able to make the image clearer, sufficient for release to the public and for the boys to be identified from the clearer images on the CCTV. And technology has moved at such a fast pace since then that it’s hard to believe that this image cannot be clearer. MOO

 

[jamiek1963]

Do you have any evidence for that possibility? Do you have any evidence that Abby and Libby had the expertise to erase their digital footprints well enough to fool the FBI?

The actual police, huh? Really? When did they do that? Did they say that emphatically in a recent interview (i.e., as opposed to during the first weeks of the investigation)?

BBM
Now that's a bad straw man argument. I didn't claim that all acquaintances always address one another by name. In this particular situation, if BG had set up some kind of meeting with the girls, addressing them by name would have made it much easier to gain their compliance. Like it or not, his not using their names is evidence that he didn't know them. (What you do with people you know well is irrelevant.)
-
There's also audio of Abby and Libby, and they made no reference to meeting anyone; we know that they chatted about ordinary girl stuff. That's also evidence that no meeting was planned (like it or not).
-
Finally, they didn't seem to be very particular about what time they wanted to visit the Monon High Bridge. That's another argument against any sort of meeting (like it or not).
-
You also have professional profilers stating that the victims were opportune. No one is claiming that profilers can't be wrong, but their analyses need to be considered.
-
In short, you have no evidence whatsoever for any kind of meeting, and you have substantial evidence against that scenario.
-
I would suggest that the idea of a meeting is being driven by wishful thinking; you wish to believe that Abby and Libby couldn't merely have been random victims of a sadistic serial killer. Because if they could be victims, anyone could be a victim—including you, including your loved ones. Believing that Abby and Libby participated in their own victimization, even in such a small way as setting up a mystery meeting, makes you a little more comfortable. From a psychological perspective, victim blaming is at the root of your theory, whether you realize it or not.

 

[minazoe]

20 kids based on Kelsie's statement, not necessarily all at the same time. 10 adults eg couple under the bridge, Cheyenne and friend, flannel shirt guy, couple of dog walkers, 3 or four others, plus BG, plus the girls.

this makes sense to me now, that I understand there are teens , dog walkers etc at the park.

sometimes when you are a new teen, you want to do teen things, be in the know.

as a side, no one is victim blaming. to be unrealistic is a disservice to the girls, of course they are innocent angels and did nothing wrong. there is nothing wrong with normal teenage
activities and behaviors within reason.

I don't believe anyone here would ever blame the girls. Everyone wants to know how they arrived at that horrible moment so it never happens again.

if he's stalking the internet, going from town to town stalking girls, stalking girls with his car, observing them with his car.

where is he? thats what we want to know, and how is he satisfying his habit?

The reason I don't think this was a crazed person is that the whole thing was organized,
to the extent he came prepared, we don't really know what he left at the scene or the weapon, but I think if he was a crazy lunatic he would have talked about it by now , he could not be hiding it well at all and would probably tell people he did it.

so did he target them only moments before? or was there a longer game? if there was a longer game and he had been watching or following these girls for sometime, then could he have left clues elsewhere? Or did he meet Abby and Libby on the internet posing as a teenage boy? We are told the girls were not dressed to meet boys. I believe this sort of except libby looked adorable that day.

mOO