Ramseys Indicted by the Grand Jury in 1999

I'm not so sure, rashomon. According to Alan Dershowitz, murder requires intent. If the person didn't know she was alive when they strangled her, they can't form intent to kill. I know it sounds ridiculous, but AFAIK, it's true.

I agree, but presumably it would be for the accused to put up a defence of believing she was already dead. If the accused denies the act, and it is known she was alive at that point, then I don't see how that defence could be raised. Does this sound reasonable?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The charge of Murder does not require intent. If Dershowitz said that, he didn't know what he was talking about. But I'd like to read what he said in context before passing judgement on that statement.
 
The charge of Murder does not require intent. If Dershowitz said that, he didn't know what he was talking about. But I'd like to read what he said in context before passing judgement on that statement.
Another possibility: the GJ did not believe that the Ramseys thought JB was already dead went they found her in a coma from the head wound ...
Can it really be ruled out that the final strangulation of JB with the nylon cord was an intentional act committed by one of the Ramseys, to cover up the by whom she was attacked in the first place?

Wrappig the end of the nylon cord around the paintbrush stick and the loosely tied ligatures could have been used as pure stage props to suggest that a bizarre sexual predator had been in the house.

If Burke inflicted the severe head injury and the Ramseys wanted do keep this secret at all costs, a JB who might have survived the attack posed a possible danger to the R's if she recovered enough to be able to speak about what had happened ...
 
Another possibility: the GJ did not believe that the Ramseys thought JB was already dead went they found her in a coma from the head wound ...
Can it really be ruled out that the final strangulation of JB with the nylon cord was an intentional act committed by one of the Ramseys, to cover up the by whom she was attacked in the first place?

Wrappig the end of the nylon cord around the paintbrush stick and the loosely tied ligatures could have been used as pure stage props to suggest that a bizarre sexual predator had been in the house.

If Burke inflicted the severe head injury and the Ramseys wanted do keep this secret at all costs, a JB who might have survived the attack posed a possible danger to the R's if she recovered enough to be able to speak about what had happened ...
I agree, rashomon. No doubt that if the ligature was applied and tightened when she was unconscious, and if the intent was there (no matter what the intent might have been), it is undeniably First Degree Murder. But there are still circumstances where M-1 can apply without intent. OTOH, if the GJ thought either one of the parents had done this deliberately (acting together with the other parent), and even if they didn't know she was already dead, John and Patsy would have both been true-billed for M-1. The DA wouldn't have to name or prove which one of the two actually tightened the cord.
 
Another possibility: the GJ did not believe that the Ramseys thought JB was already dead went they found her in a coma from the head wound ...
Can it really be ruled out that the final strangulation of JB with the nylon cord was an intentional act committed by one of the Ramseys, to cover up the by whom she was attacked in the first place?

Wrappig the end of the nylon cord around the paintbrush stick and the loosely tied ligatures could have been used as pure stage props to suggest that a bizarre sexual predator had been in the house.

If Burke inflicted the severe head injury and the Ramseys wanted do keep this secret at all costs, a JB who might have survived the attack posed a possible danger to the R's if she recovered enough to be able to speak about what had happened ...
I agree. - "the GJ did not believe that the Ramseys thought JB was already dead went they found her in a coma from the head wound". There would be no reason to believe that.
This assumes: The R's found JB in a coma.
In a BDI scenario - they would have found JB dead.

The GJ also heard expert testimony, and I would imagine they heard from the ME if not others who would have testified that the likely scenario would have involved Cheyne-Stokes breathing.

Nothing can be truly ruled out - but why would either of the adults strangle JB when they could have more easily covered for the boy by creating a story about an accident and calling an ambulance?

The paintbrush stick seems to be connected to the ligature strangulation, imo, in that it was taken from the tray that was next to the where the urine stain was found on the carpet. The wrist ties very well could be staging, as is the mouth tape.

I'll take the liberty of re-phrasing your last sentence:
If BR inflicted the severe head injury and the BR wanted do keep this secret at all costs, a JB who might have survived the attack posed a possible danger to BR if she recovered enough to be able to speak about what had happened.
 
I agree Dave, but presumably it would be for the accused to put up a defence of believing she was already dead. If the accused denies the act, and it is known she was alive at that point, then I don't see how that defence could be raised. Does this sound reasonable?

It SOUNDS reasonable, sure. But on the other side of it, the prosecution would have to prove that whoever did it DID know she was alive and as such, had the intent to kill.
 
Alex Hunter's fault

1. Leaks to the press.
2. Provided evidence and testimony to Team Ramsey.
3. Failure to seek warrants for phone calls, credit card statements, medical records, etc.
4. Delayed questioning by police.
5. Preferred plea-bargain to prosecution.
6. Intimidated by Ramsey lawyers.
7. Made some decisions based on politics rather than justice.

Not Alex Hunter's fault

A. Compromised crime scene.
B. Lou Smit never believed RDI.
C. DA "dream team" agreed that the case was not winnable based on the evidence.

Would A, B or C change if 1 - 7 were different?

Maybe.
 
Alex Hunter's fault

1. Leaks to the press.
2. Provided evidence and testimony to Team Ramsey.
3. Failure to seek warrants for phone calls, credit card statements, medical records, etc.
4. Delayed questioning by police.
5. Preferred plea-bargain to prosecution.
6. Intimidated by Ramsey lawyers.
7. Made some decisions based on politics rather than justice.

Not Alex Hunter's fault

A. Compromised crime scene.
B. Lou Smit never believed RDI.
C. DA "dream team" agreed that the case was not winnable based on the evidence.

Would A, B or C change if 1 - 7 were different?

Maybe.

Well put. A very good summary as to how this became a media killing.

1. Leaks to the press.
Unfortunately this has happened in almost every major case the world over.
Is there any evidence that AH sanctioned leaks that suited his decisions/narrative?
Or evidence that whilst “leaking” himself, AH actively sought sanctions against those divulging counter-narrative material?

2. Provided evidence and testimony to Team Ramsey.
Crucial to this case. I remain as incredulous today as I was when I first learnt that full disclosure had been given to non-compliant parents of a murdered child. Extraordinary.

3. Failure to seek warrants for phone calls, credit card statements, medical records, etc.

Investigation basics. Evidence that could just as easily help clear the innocent.

4. Delayed questioning by police.
Rendered almost pointless by your point 2 above. And “questioning” is not the term I would use. Some of it would fail Level 1 PIP in the UK.

5. Preferred plea-bargain to prosecution.
I have seen mention of some eye-watering decisions made by AH.
However, balancing hat on, he could be considered ahead of his time (please don’t all scream at once!) in terms of exploring restorative justice, community payback etc. Which makes his Ramsey decision all the more confusing for me. There was a way through the wood, but he stayed sitting in the tree.

6. Intimidated by Ramsey lawyers.

To help me understand if D.A.s have a “public interest” responsibility, Tortoise kindly provided a link to National District Attorneys Association National Prosecution Standards Third Edition with Revised Commentary and I found this:
In Imbler v. Pachtman, 424 U.S. 408 (1976), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that prosecutors enjoy absolute immunity from Civil Rights Actions brought under Section 1983, 42 U.S.C., when acting within the scope of their duties in initiating and pursuing a criminal prosecution and in presenting the state’s case. The Court noted that although such immunity leaves the genuinely wronged criminal defendant without civil redress against a prosecutor whose malicious or dishonest action deprives him of liberty, the alternative of qualifying a prosecutor’s immunity would outweigh the broader public interest in that it would prevent the vigorous and fearless performance of the prosecutor’s duty that is essential to the proper functioning of the criminal justice system.
The Court did not extend such absolute immunity to actions taken by a prosecutor outside of the scope of his or her duties as aforesaid. Thus, Imbler did not change pre-existing law with respect to the performance of duties that traditionally are viewed as investigative duties falling primarily within the police function.
Although there has been a multitude of case law subsequent to Imbler discussing the prosecutor’s immunity for “administrative” and “investigative” duties, no bright line rule has been established.
In order to ensure that prosecutors are free to vigorously and fearlessly perform their essential duties, the prosecutor’s funding source should provide the costs, including attorney fees and judgments associated with civil suits against the prosecutor and his or her staff. No prosecutor should be expected to function without full coverage for actions arising out of the performance of his or her duties. “
I cannot see how LW or others could have sued AH or subsequent DAs on behalf of the Ramseys. Nor can I see how they could have sued BPD.
They were “persons of interest” not defendants.
They had never been arrested, let alone deprived of their liberty. (Actually, does anyone know for certain if they were ever interviewed “under caution”?)
Any loss of “good standing” was down to their own failure to engage with those professionals tasked with investigating the killing of their daughter.

7. Made some decisions based on politics rather than justice.
Within professional circles, it is inevitable that everyone either a knows x or knows y who knows x. (There is a section on conflict of interest in the National Standards quoted above.)
I have not learnt enough about the district/state affiliations of that time to know if AH was playing politics with people’s lives.

Not Alex Hunter's fault

A. Compromised crime scene
.
Linked to your 2 and 4 above. Plus who invites an audience to a real kidnapping, then forms a prayer circle around a murdered child. Agatha Christie, eat your heart out.
Words fail me.

B. Lou Smit never believed RDI.
The perfect answer to the Ramseys’ prayers. The innocence agenda.

C. DA "dream team" agreed that the case was not winnable based on the evidence.
I’m not sure - did they all agree? And on what?

IMO the difficulties resulting from point A could have been eased (if not surmounted) if points 2 and 4 had been played differently.
So yes, maybe.
 
"In the end, we can say the Grand Jury saw far beyond probable cause. Rather than one indictment they issued four, and two of those indictments included a reference to knowing a third person had committed murder, as well as knowing that that third person was also a child abuser. Even though they acknowledged a murder had occurred, and appeared to suspect who it was, the Grand Jury nevertheless(correctly in my view)didn't accuse the parents of First Degree murder, but as accessories after the fact." from "Sequin Star 2000-2006 (The JonBenet Ramsey Story Book 1)"by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


cottonstar
 
Let's bare in mind that these are the only indictments we know about, we have no idea which ones come before these, or how many after. I'm under the impression a murder charge could be held alongside these as well? In a case of JR or PR did it, Is it possible GJ couldn't determine which parent pulled the trigger but each knew who did, whether it be one, the other or a third person?

Im way out of my depth here but I trust someone will correct me where I'm wrong
 
I seem to remember an article where one of the grand jurors said something like, “we didn’t know who did what.”
 
i started a new thread, not having seen this stickied thread.

the "first degree murder" jumped out me........ i haven't seen much intent/planning being speculated on in terms of RDI. and IDI is generally considered free of R invovlement ... my understanding of "first degree murder" is from tv detective shows

although, as noted, it might refer to the alleged final act done to JBR. the strangulation when that perp may have thought she was already dead.

but then that doesn't make too much sense either as the GJ didn't seem to be indicting either R with 1st degree murder. can they say that they assisted a first degree murderer but we voluntarily are not charging that person? i.e. lack of a good case on 1st D murder

....... and if one of them is 1st degree suspect (without being actually charged with it), how can that person be an ancessory to themselves? or, can you be perp and accessory on same act? i.e. more than 1 suspect.

and i should note any R perp talk is alleged (at best)
 
i'm assuming child abuse could have been not getting treatment for your gravely injured daughter..
 
I seem to remember an article where one of the grand jurors said something like, “we didn’t know who did what.”

michael91,
The juror said he believes that there was enough evidence to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for a crime, but he doesn’t think they would have been convicted.

“There is no way that I would have been able to say, ‘Beyond a reasonable doubt, this is the person,’” the juror said. “And if you are the district attorney, if you know that going in, it’s a waste of taxpayer dollars to do it.”

Still, he says the grand jury did recommend charges against John and Patsy Ramsey, indicating the jurors believed they placed JonBenet in a situation resulting in her death.

But, in an astonishing turn of events, the prosecutor nullified the findings of his own grand jury, saying he and his prosecution task force believed they did not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who had been investigated at that time.

Much later, in 2008, then-Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy wrote a letter saying she was clearing the Ramseys of any involvement in JonBenet’s death.
 
I'm not so sure, rashomon. According to Alan Dershowitz, murder requires intent. If the person didn't know she was alive when they strangled her, they can't form intent to kill. I know it sounds ridiculous, but AFAIK, it's true.
Little do people know JBR had skin cells under her nails indicated whoever strangled her knew she was still alive! Maybe the mother and brother teamed up both jealous of the beauty and fame she had!
 
Little do people know JBR had skin cells under her nails indicated whoever strangled her knew she was still alive! Maybe the mother and brother teamed up both jealous of the beauty and fame she had!


The coroner used the same clippers on several bodies in the morgue including Jonbenet.
Not normal protocol but he did it anyway making any cells found a moot point. She could not have fought after the head bash and that came first.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
133
Guests online
4,357
Total visitors
4,490

Forum statistics

Threads
592,486
Messages
17,969,662
Members
228,788
Latest member
Soccergirl500
Back
Top