CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #3

[tayaway]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/ns-gunman-2011-warning-1.5589277

Tip 9 years ago warned that N.S. gunman wanted 'to kill a cop'

“The 2011 bulletin was the second time in less than a year that police had been made aware of Wortman's possibility for violence, the documents revealed.

The bulletin describes how Wortman was investigated for "uttering death threats to his parents" on June 2, 2010. That investigation also included information that he had several guns.

Halifax Regional Police investigated, but closed the file without laying charges, according to its spokesperson.

He said there wasn't enough evidence to lay charges or get search warrants.

In the officer safety bulletin from 2011, Densmore writes that he received information from an unnamed source on May 3 saying that Wortman had "stated he wants to kill a cop" and was upset with how police investigated a break-and-enter complaint he made.

"He believes police did not do their job in relation to this investigation," Densmore wrote.

The tipster told police that Wortman was "under a lot of stress lately" and was starting to have some mental health issues, describing him as "becoming a little squirrelly.".......”

If they investigated, they'd have discovered that he did not possess a PAL for those firearms. Did they drop the ball here or what?

 

[MistyWaters]

If they investigated, they'd have discovered that he did not possess a PAL for those firearms. Did they drop the ball here or what?

If police were unable to obtain a search warrant authorized by a Judge they cannot prove somebody possesses firearms. What’s the criteria for police to obtain a search warrant, is a verbal say so not enough, I have no idea.
Charterpedia - Section 8 – Search and seizure

Reading the challenges of controlling illegal weapons in general is quite depressing.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-us-border-illegal-firearms-1.5551432

 

[tayaway]

If police were unable to obtain a search warrant authorized by a Judge they cannot prove somebody possesses firearms. What’s the criteria for police to obtain a search warrant, is a verbal say so not enough, I have no idea.
Charterpedia - Section 8 – Search and seizure

Reading the challenges of controlling illegal weapons in general is quite depressing.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-us-border-illegal-firearms-1.5551432

They had multiple people telling the RCMP that he had weapons though. Doesn't that count for anything?

 

[NBKevadian]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5589277

Tips given to RCMP back in 2011 about GW weapon possession and travelling from the city to the cottage with a hand gun.....

Reading further down the article, it mentions there were two bulletins posted on GW in less than a year apart. The first being that assault/threat claim from his father.

 

[MistyWaters]

They had multiple people telling the RCMP that he had weapons though. Doesn't that count for anything?

I’d think it should, assuming those weapons from 10 years were all able to fire. I’m not familiar with gun laws and penalties but it varies depending on type of weapon, prohibited or restricted or non-restricted. I will admit, I’ve never heard of a police raid for guns without there being some other criminal element involved, ie endangering somebody’s life, illegal sales, drugs, etc.

One issue relative to this case, it would seem police in Canada do not retain ongoing “complaint files” on citizens, outside of criminal charges. Is that a good or bad thing..... I can see becoming a contentious issue if that were to be posed as a future recommendation as it does conflict with right to presumed innocence.

Me personally, if I was aware anyone had a stockpile of illegal weapons in a home I frequented - friend, relative, spouse etc or my workplace, I’d surely consider just loading then up and taking them to the nearest police station without the owners permission.

 

[tayaway]

I'm not talking raid, but simply paying him a visit. 'We've got several complaints about possession of multiple firearms at this address...' Simply looking into it, maybe talking to a few neighbors and acquaintances?

Regarding the complaint file, I'm just as clueless. Had they kept one on him, they'd have at least 3 about weapons. It would take two seconds on the computer to see that he didn't have his PAL.

Taking somebody's weapons stash is risky business. You don't know if that would be the match to somebody's rampage or retaliation that'd result in your injury/death.

 

[Errrr]

See, that's what confused me. It's said in the ITO statement that he was disdainful of the RCMP. So, offering to be a colour party (I can't think of the correct term, hopefully this works?) wouldn't work in real life. It's written in statement that" he didn't like the RCMP and thought he was better than they were". But as a cover story, I guess it might theoretically work. But in reality, knowing what we now know, that is a horrific thing to think of...

Maybe he just used it as an excuse to get those decals printed?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not talking raid, but simply paying him a visit. 'We've got several complaints about possession of multiple firearms at this address...' Simply looking into it, maybe talking to a few neighbors and acquaintances?

Regarding the complaint file, I'm just as clueless. Had they kept one on him, they'd have at least 3 about weapons. It would take two seconds on the computer to see that he didn't have his PAL.

Taking somebody's weapons stash is risky business. You don't know if that would be the match to somebody's rampage or retaliation that'd result in your injury/death.

I’m quite sure police can’t go to somebody’s home just to ask questions in this era of privacy and rights. They can’t even stop a vehicle unless a known infraction has been observed by them.

The risk you mention could be the same for neighbours and acquaintances for talking to police because they become a witness. There is no right answer but suspected serious mental illness and guns are definitely not a good mix.

 

[newguy123]

If there were complaints against him, or anyone, should these be permanent records? Or is a 5 yr or 10 yr retention of that complaint enough? I see arguments both ways on that. As for the weapons, even if a search warrant were obtained and weapons seized, what is/were the penalties at the time? It might prevent him from getting legal weapons, but certainly he acquired weapons illegally so would that stop it the second time? Or would he just be more discrete about them? The CBC article quoted above says " he may have been transporting a handgun " The problem with that is that "may have been". Or he might not have been. Like others I don't know the criteria for when a report to the police becomes actionable.
As a point of reference, I am a contractor and years ago helped build a huge home with a secret compartment at the fireplace. The owners were busted for drug violations (major grow op etc) and stiffed the general contractor for tens of thousands of dollars. As a sub, I had already been paid. The police searched the house and found no weapons, no cash. I called them and asked if they had found the secret compartment. They were quite surprised to say the least.....and I gave them specifics on how to locate and open it. Inside they found lots of cash and illegal (stolen) weapons. They would have missed it otherwise. I read the gunman had a stash at a chimney area too at Portapique, so even if you search you might not find. Not that that is a reason not to follow up on complaints, but sadly, these people are often one move ahead of the rest of us.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe he just used it as an excuse to get those decals printed?

According to reports, an employee created the decals under the table without his boss’s knowledge. I doubt he did it for free so cash exchanged hands and that’s what the employee cared about most IMO.

 

[mcdonalds]

I just noticed something. I'm attaching a map released a while ago indicating where bodies were found.
View attachment 248924

These are my notes corresponding to the numbers on the map:
1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. John Zahl / Joanne Thomas home
3. Frank Gulenchyn / Dawn Madsen home
4. Jolene Oliver / Aron Tuck / Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair / Greg Blair home
7. Unknown ( Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. Peter and Joy Bond home

I might be mistaken about 3 and 8. Maybe they should be reversed. But, we have previously speculated that location 7, must be where Corrie Ellison was found, and wondered why his brother said something about walking on the beach. I just notice that the police have location 1 marked as the location of the body. That's the 200 Portapique Beach Road area. Perhaps Corrie was near the beach and the person at location 7 is someone else.

Link to police map: Nova Scotia shooting: A detailed timeline of how the rampage unfolded

is #7 possibly the motorist who was shot and injured?

 

[mcdonalds]

I’m quite sure police can’t go to somebody’s home just to ask questions in this era of privacy and rights. They can’t even stop a vehicle unless a known infraction has been observed by them.

The risk you mention could be the same for neighbours and acquaintances for talking to police because they become a witness. There is no right answer but suspected serious mental illness and guns are definitely not a good mix.

I think the challenge may be similar to what FORBES went through- no proof- its all just hearsay. I also think there is something about if they are in plain site of RCMP - I think then they can do something more under reasonable cause to search.Without a warrant to enter he would have had to give permission for his location to be searched or for police to even step inside his door. He strikes me as someone who knew his rights and what police could/couldnt do and walked the line very carefully.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the challenge may be similar to what FORBES went through- no proof- its all just hearsay. I also think there is something about if they are in plain site of RCMP - I think then they can do something more under reasonable cause to search.Without a warrant to enter he would have had to give permission for his location to be searched or for police to even step inside his door. He strikes me as someone who knew his rights and what police could/couldnt do and walked the line very carefully.

Just thinking about this, he also seemed the type of person who thrived on stepping right up to the line but not quite crossing over...until April 18th. For example were the guns others saw working weapons or were they fake replicas which he displayed in view of others for shock value? And he had a hidden stash elsewhere. This would somewhat follow the pattern of the decommissioned police cruisers, 3 of 4 registered with the replica hidden inside. We assume he had the same weapons for years that he used during the massacre but we also don’t know that for sure.

 

[Amoca]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/2011-bulletin-nova-scotia-gunman-victims-son-1.5590412

Guess I'm not that crazy for wanting answers.

 

[paganini]

Police map of where bodies lay in Portapique (corrected since post above).

These are my notes corresponding to the numbers on the map:

1. Unknown (200 Portapique)
2. Peter and Joy Bond home
3. Frank Gulenchyn / Dawn Madsen home
4. Jolene Oliver / Aron Tuck / Emily Tuck home
5. Lisa McCully home
6. Jamie Blair / Greg Blair home
7. Unknown ( Orchard Beach Rd and Portapique Crescent)
8. John Zahl / Joanne Thomas home

 

[paganini]

is #7 possibly the motorist who was shot and injured?

No, because the police report this as being where bodies were found. The wounded man wasn't a "body". But, even if there were some confusion there, he exited the area and met the police. My impression is that he was further out of Portapique than where #7 is.

 

[deugirtni]

No, because the police report this as being where bodies were found. The wounded man wasn't a "body". But, even if there were some confusion there, he exited the area and met the police. My impression is that he was further out of Portapique than where #7 is.

Is there a link to the police map of where the bodies were found?

 

[deugirtni]

They had multiple people telling the RCMP that he had weapons though. Doesn't that count for anything?

I'm not talking raid, but simply paying him a visit. 'We've got several complaints about possession of multiple firearms at this address...' Simply looking into it, maybe talking to a few neighbors and acquaintances?....

I’m quite sure police can’t go to somebody’s home just to ask questions in this era of privacy and rights. They can’t even stop a vehicle unless a known infraction has been observed by them. ....

It is really weird.. I am aware of someone who was paid police visits at their door within the past several years, at least on two separate occasions, for completely different things/reasons.. both as a result of some random person calling police. The proposed incidents in question were on a much lesser scale than what I would think someone having a stockpile of weapons and/or beating on another human would be, in comparison. It leads me to ask, if it was okay for police to come knocking to simply make enquiries as a result of some random second party phonecall, then why is it not okay to go knocking to make enquiries for the guns and beatings that were reported to police about GW? Even if not enough to obtain a search warrant, the questioning alone may have been enough to rattle him into understanding that he was perhaps not above the law, that people do see things, and report them, and that police do follow up on it, etc. jmo. OTOH, it could have inspired such events as happened on Apri 18/19th/2020 to occur years sooner.

 

[tayaway]

It is really weird.. I am aware of someone who was paid police visits at their door within the past several years, at least on two separate occasions, for completely different things/reasons.. both as a result of some random person calling police. The proposed incidents in question were on a much lesser scale than what I would think someone having a stockpile of weapons and/or beating on another human would be, in comparison. It leads me to ask, if it was okay for police to come knocking to simply make enquiries as a result of some random second party phonecall, then why is it not okay to go knocking to make enquiries for the guns and beatings that were reported to police about GW? Even if not enough to obtain a search warrant, the questioning alone may have been enough to rattle him into understanding that he was perhaps not above the law, that people do see things, and report them, and that police do follow up on it, etc. jmo. OTOH, it could have inspired such events as happened on Apri 18/19th/2020 to occur years sooner.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. They do a visit, it doesn't even mean they enter the home, just knock on the door and talk for a few minutes. The municipal cops in my city do this, for all sorts of things, but the RCMP don't for multiple weapons concerns?

 

[MistyWaters]

It is really weird.. I am aware of someone who was paid police visits at their door within the past several years, at least on two separate occasions, for completely different things/reasons.. both as a result of some random person calling police. The proposed incidents in question were on a much lesser scale than what I would think someone having a stockpile of weapons and/or beating on another human would be, in comparison. It leads me to ask, if it was okay for police to come knocking to simply make enquiries as a result of some random second party phonecall, then why is it not okay to go knocking to make enquiries for the guns and beatings that were reported to police about GW? Even if not enough to obtain a search warrant, the questioning alone may have been enough to rattle him into understanding that he was perhaps not above the law, that people do see things, and report them, and that police do follow up on it, etc. jmo. OTOH, it could have inspired such events as happened on Apri 18/19th/2020 to occur years sooner.

If police had made a courtesy call advising the future killer it’s illegal to possess weapons without a gun licence and in case he had any on the premises would he please hand them over, in my opinion, would’ve been highly unlikely it would’ve changed this psycho into becoming a peaceful, law abiding citizen.

IMO anyone who buys weapons from the US is doing so knowing it’s highly illegal and they’re being bought with a specific purpose in mind. According to the search warrants the RCMP have determined the sources of the weapons used in the massacre but until further information is released, we still don’t know what was the date and if those were the same weapons referred to 10 years in the past.