Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

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I agree, they have stated at different times that each was the face of the killer. But so many things they do also seem to be related to preserving the potential case against a defensive strategy MOO. Thus the reason I asked if that's ever been successfully mounted.

I think it would depend on the totality of the evidence and also the actual testimony of the witnesses involved in the sketches. They could be 100% positive the sketch is completely accurate or maybe they’d admit their memory probably wasn’t very good but they tried.

What I think is more important is the lost opportunity for good tips if somebody out there is holding back because the person they suspect bears no resemblance to either sketch, not even half way in-between.

JMO
 
I have no doubt the Family is grateful for each and every tip that could lead to the killer. Not the "he looks like so-in-so", "my ex should be looked at- he's a real (insert word of your choice)", or random side-by-side photos, but the tips that are legitimate. Someone seen in the vicinity wearing clothes matching the description, someone acting suspicious and was in a hurry to leave the area, etc. is a legitimate tip, IMO.

Despite the fact your tip may not have been the one, you took the time to report a valid tip; a man who was in the area at the time and matched the clothing description given by LE. Don't be too hard on yourself. You did something you thought may help investigators find a mad man. :)

Since I think I saw this person towards the end of 2016(and do not remember specific day or month), I had no idea about what would happen in February 2017. Also, when I saw this person I was working at a cold storage company far from Delphi, Indiana in another state on a day before the crime even occurred. Liberty German shot this video on her phone later. I saw the video through some outlet whether that was television or online and thought the man I encountered had the exact same type of clothing and body build. I described it to LE in an email. So I sent it in as a description tip.

I even waited a little bit because I really thought LE would solve the case quickly within a month, but finally decided at the end of March 2017 my information might be useful.

The point I am trying to make is that when I saw this person who drove the refrigerated truck it was before February 13, 2017. He was just a description memory by the time I saw Liberty German's video. I do not know who he is or where he is from or even what truck line he drives for. Our company even did business in Canada too so for all I know he might be a Canadian.
 
I think it would depend on the totality of the evidence and also the actual testimony of the witnesses involved in the sketches. They could be 100% positive the sketch is completely accurate or maybe they’d admit their memory probably wasn’t very good but they tried.

What I think is more important is the lost opportunity for good tips if somebody out there is holding back because the person they suspect bears no resemblance to either sketch, not even half way in-between.

JMO

Without Liberty German's phone video, I would never have sent in a tip in this case.
 
I had an idea at work today. I do not think it's ever been discussed here but I am not going back through the threads to check. There is a possibilty the bodies were posed. It depends on how you perceive a remark made by the sherrif You can read uncomfirmed reports about how they were said to posed elsewhere. My question is this. Are there any books, movies, album covers, references in popular culture where a body was found posed? I'm wondering if BG was obsessed with a certain book for example and acted it out IRL.
 
Back to 2017. Do you think, the white thing lurking out of BG's jacket (sometimes looking like questionmark) might be something like this? A monkeystick?
monkeystick® - das Original
My thoughts on that white object is its the handles/s of a plastic grocery store type bag that is carrying stuff like gloves a roll of duct tape ( I think I can see the outline of a roll of duct tape) and possibly a weapon that weighs it down under his jacket but the handles stick out. I think he using his wrist/forearm to keep that bag from falling out from under his jacket, and since this stuff seemed to be under his right side it makes me think he may be left handed. Just MOO.
 
April 29, 2020
“The Sheriff indicated the two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Monday, Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation...”

The fact that both persons are of interest raises the distinct possibility of a "team". The possibility of a team then raises the question of how they know each other and who is dominant.

Any crime involving more than just one person needs another person willing to participate and a degree of trust between the participants.

The two people are apparently of very different ages. The age differences alone would probably inhibit trust. Then factor in possible background differences (older person truly appears to be be a "squirrel shooter"* in "dads" jeans). The background of younger person is not as distinct, but there is nothing to suggest that he has the same background as the older person.

I think the age and possible background inhibitions towards trust would need to be over come by something very strong such as family ties.

As for dominance, statistically, it would be the older person in most cases. Exceptions could be made in the case of an unusually charismatic younger partner or for a "Wally" (term used by member to describe a slow, but not medically mentally retarded individual who lives with his mother or other relative. "Wally" is reclusive and works low skill jobs. His female care taker washes and creases his work clothes). But, my guess is that the exceptions would be relatively rare.

So.... a possibility with a statistical edge could be: The two men are family members with the older person being dominant. I also would guess that a targeted scenario could be more likely than a random scenario as targeted offers a lot of variation in motives that could lead to a horrific crime.

* Term describes lower income, rural or semi rural white.
 
Its hard to analyze this case due to what we dont know, in which the manner of death (though I understand and agree with withholding ) could narrow many things down

Ill admit that I havent read through the entire thread, but is there anywhere that shows a map with the locations where the girls were seen in the pictures and video and where they were found relative to where they were seen in those

thanks
 
Its hard to analyze this case due to what we dont know, in which the manner of death (though I understand and agree with withholding ) could narrow many things down

Ill admit that I havent read through the entire thread, but is there anywhere that shows a map with the locations where the girls were seen in the pictures and video and where they were found relative to where they were seen in those

thanks
On every page 1 of this thread you will find almost all the info you need including timelines, media and videos etc.
 
Its hard to analyze this case due to what we dont know, in which the manner of death (though I understand and agree with withholding ) could narrow many things down

Ill admit that I havent read through the entire thread, but is there anywhere that shows a map with the locations where the girls were seen in the pictures and video and where they were found relative to where they were seen in those

thanks

It may be more than you want but there is a case map by skibaboo (linked on page one of each thread).

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - خرائطي على Google
 
Sadly theres not a whole lot to go on in terms of what is released to the public.

Appearently theres a good deal more info that police are sitting on and to try to analyze this case, without pertinent info would aquait to nothing more than an educated guess

Without certain questions answered such as sexual assault indication (which is also usually the case), Cause of death, forensic findings etc.. its purely speculative .

But some things to ponder that I would if I were working this case,

Id want a victimology assessment done on the girls for reasons Ill explain later

The manner of death is unknown at this time, in order to wean out false claims, i have a feeling I know how they were killed, but I wont elaborate until LE releases it

I agree with the FBI that the individual most likely lives in the Delphi area, id even venture to say possibly in the area of the park itself they usually do

So please take this as such , But to give perhaps a different spin

If i were investigating this , My first question : How did the offender initially come into contact with the victims?

Delphi Indiana has a crime rate equal to most other areas Delphi has an overall crime rate of 15 per 1,000 residents, making the crime rate here near the average for all cities and towns of all sizes in America. According to our analysis of FBI crime data, your chance of becoming a victim of crime in Delphi is 1 in 69. (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

With a population of 2882 in (2017) The area averages only around 5 violent crimes in any given year. Which indicates crimes more along the lines of theft and property crimes,

Hoever the odds of one becoming a victim of a crime in Delphi is roughly 1 in 578 pere 2020 data (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

Without knowing anything about the victims background its tough to assess things like risk taking behaviors by the girls, I can say they were walking across a bridge the looked pretty high with no safety rail but I cant say for sure, without a real assessment.

However the girls parents seemed fine with the girls going off on their own , at 1:30 pm approx indicating at least a palpable sense of comfort and safety in allowing the girls to go alone on their day off from school (It was a thursday I believe). This may have been furthered by the knowledge that the girls had a cell phone with them and would be picked up approx 2 hours after.

I cant say whether or not their parents knew there was such a bridge there but then again im not sure how high were talking , but it looked like a potential fatal fall in the pictures I saw , nonetheless

In this case, there are 3 possibilities and each one has a different possibility of what type of indivdual may be responsible

1) He was there for a legitimate reason and of his own accord and simply came upon the girls by chance , MOST cases of abduction homicides of children are exactly that, wherein the victims are merely victims of opportunity.

2) He observed the girls from some vantage point at some time and decided to follow them, this could be simply walking by, living near the area.

3) He knew they would be there, or knew they were there

If we look at scenario 1), in which the offender was there on his own , and came across the girls by chance you have to ask what he was doing there?, in most cases, of child abduction murder, the offender lives/works nearby, is in the area for what is a "Legit reason" he may traverse that area , but he usually lives and or works in the area .

They usually comes upon his (I Use the male indication here because the overwhelming majority are) victims by chance. the only thing that makes someone his chosen victim, is that they are alone.

Physical attributes with these type offenses usually contribute little to the victim selection process.

In terms of risk it was extremely high risk for the offender to accost 2 victims without knowing who may have been in the around unless he knew he'd be able to control more than one, that indicates not only that the offender had some level of comfort in the area, but he had some way to institute control over more than 1 person (Weapon , or possibly a sign of authority such as badge) .

This is where the victimology assessment is invaluable , were the girls such that fear by simply a show of aggression by an adult male would cause them to go with a stranger,were they the overly trusting type(s) who would beleive a ruse to get them to follow someone they didnt know? (this is equally important), what about someone they mightve known? would they go with a local they perhaps knew (or knew of)somewhat ?

If so that changes things around a lot.

If not then we have to assume he had a weapon and or some manner restrainting device on him which changes the profile of the type of individual involved yet again

Its been my feeling that simce this occurred that the individual had a weapon, though I cant say for sure, but to control 2 adolescent girls in an area where they may scream and attract attention he either forced them to walk under threat of violence, they went willingly with him because he knew them or perhaps he identified himself as a position of authority.

But to murder 2 girls when one may run during , lends me to beleive he either restrained them, or he incapacitated one to assault another then killed her too .

The shortest route between where its estimates they were last seen and where they are found seems to indicate about .5 milesm, and at some point they possibly walked through water. Or through dry ares in the creek bed.

Again "hey guys follow me down the hill" or "go down the hill" could have different meanings

Investigative considerations : Was there any similar crimes in that area? anyone suspicious in the area? any reports of anyone being followed ?

Did he lure them there then spring it on them once they were where he felt he could ?, or did he walk up to them and force them someplace he felt safe under threat?

Another possibility is false ID,

Producing a weapon or form of ID (Law enforcement) or both is another possibility.

The issue there is you have to get 2 scared girls half a mile away , and runs the chance of one or both of the victims at some point screaming for help, and theres a chance they did, but thats a HUGE risk for the offender.

Its by no means out of the range of possibility and is about 50/50 in this case, that is what he did, fear is a powerful motivator.

However "you guys wanna see something cool?" or "Police officer I need you guys to come with me " Its also possible.

The motive for this type of case is usually overwhelmingly sexual, the manner of death could shed a little more light onit better, but speaking in terms of statistics, its usually a landslide .

The offenders in these type of cases, are usually around 27-35 years of age at the time of offense , time incarcerated can alter that however. The individual is usually unemployed, or underemployed at the time of offense , though in most abduction murders of kids, triggering factors play a minimal , almost non existent role, the abduction and murder of 2 girls in a public place, albeit wooded and secluded, lends me to beleive there was some precipitating stress, beforehand.

These individuals are usually well known oddballs in the community they are loners, with few friends, sometimes labelled as "Social Marginals" .

They will have a history of failed relationships, often some established criminal history, and have often already been investigated by police.

They may interject themselves into the investigation by some means, and will often follow (usually to an obvious level ) the crime in the media

(investigative consideration: Sudden intense and unusual intertest in a case, in which their time during cannot be acounted for, and odd ever changing behavior following , changes in appearence, weight , appetite, general anxiety, sudden illness, increased use of intoxicants, sleep issues, destroying hiding items of clothes, altering or getting rid of a vehicle interior or exterior)

In many cases, they are suspected to some extent by people around them, but its never brought out for some reason or another.

One thing Im failrly certain of is that the murder scene and the recovery site are likely the same . Indicating a great level of comfort in that area where they were recovered. They recovery sites are usually the most familiar to the offender.

Because double murderers don't usually just pop up (thankfully) this individual almost CERTAINLY has a criminal past of some sort, which as some point in his life most likely involves sexual crimes and young females.

Theres often several unexpected moves to new residences, throughout his life, in most cases, 1 within 12 months prior to the offense.

Most of them work in blue collar Labor type industries, most often construction type jobs. they usually Live with parents or to a lesser extent a a significant other.

Whether or not the victims were bound would be another extremely important factor for 2 reasons
1) It indicated planning and forethought
2) Binding of child sexual murder victims is often a trait seen in repeat offenders (IE Serial killers)

If they were id venture to think it was something like handcuffs that he could hide on his person, but this also means the offender is a different type of offender than the guy who just happens upon the victims making his daily rounds.

I will refrain from speaking on manner of death as LE is keeping it under wraps, and there are to many possibilites that would lead us to pure speculation

Once hes commited the offense he needs to get out of the area, unseen , the maps shown show few residences in the area so its possble he had a vehicle nearby, or he knew a way out where he wouldnt be seen which indicatesd further 2 things,

1) familiarity with the area
2) Lives, close.

As I said earlier thers a thirs possibility of how he came into contact with the 2 girls , He either knew they would be there, or knew they were there.

How?

Did the girls disclose to anyone they were going that day?, we cant know for sure, but one thing we do know is that Libby did post a photo showing her friend with literally not a soul in sight behind her in instagram. For a sexually deviant offender who lives nearby who perhaps follows her account that may've been like ringing the dinner bell . todays investigators have to scrutinize things such as media accounts because as we know all to well lives have been lost because of it.

In the picture where we see Abby standing on the bridge, we dont see anyone else approaching (that I can tell) , ther eare dark shapes but none appear to be human.

Then within perhaps 30 min the offender appears and walks up to them and theyre gone to their fate.

Another thing , I wouldnt make much of his gait the way he walks is hindered by the fact hes steping on the railroad ties. But SOMEONE knows someone who looks like him and cant account for his time that day, even if he can.

Its a long shot, but it cant be ruled out given what info we have from the media .

Hope this opens up a few new possibilities for those following

thanks
 
Last edited:
Sadly theres not a whole lot to go on in terms of what is released to the public.

Appearently theres a good deal more info that police are sitting on and to try to analyze this case, without pertinent info would aquait to nothing more than an educated guess

Without certain questions answered such as sexual assault indication (which is also usually the case), Cause of death, forensic findings etc.. its purely speculative .

But some things to ponder that I would if I were working this case,

Id want a victimology assessment done on the girls for reasons Ill explain later

The manner of death is unknown at this time, in order to wean out false claims, i have a feeling I know how they were killed, but I wont elaborate until LE releases it

I agree with the FBI that the individual most likely lives in the Delphi area, id even venture to say possibly in the area of the park itself they usually do

So please take this as such , But to give perhaps a different spin

If i were investigating this , My first question : How did the offender initially come into contact with the victims?

Delphi Indiana has a crime rate equal to most other areas Delphi has an overall crime rate of 15 per 1,000 residents, making the crime rate here near the average for all cities and towns of all sizes in America. According to our analysis of FBI crime data, your chance of becoming a victim of crime in Delphi is 1 in 69. (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

With a population of 2882 in (2017) The area averages only around 5 violent crimes in any given year. Which indicates crimes more along the lines of theft and property crimes,

Hoever the odds of one becoming a victim of a crime in Delphi is roughly 1 in 578 pere 2020 data (Delphi Crime Rates and Statistics - NeighborhoodScout.)

Without knowing anything about the victims background its tough to assess things like risk taking behaviors by the girls, I can say they were walking across a bridge the looked pretty high with no safety rail but I cant say for sure, without a real assessment.

However the girls parents seemed fine with the girls going off on their own , at 1:30 pm approx indicating at least a palpable sense of comfort and safety in allowing the girls to go alone on their day off from school (It was a thursday I believe). This may have been furthered by the knowledge that the girls had a cell phone with them and would be picked up approx 2 hours after.

I cant say whether or not their parents knew there was such a bridge there but then again im not sure how high were talking , but it looked like a potential fatal fall in the pictures I saw , nonetheless

In this case, there are 3 possibilities and each one has a different possibility of what type of indivdual may be responsible

1) He was there for a legitimate reason and of his own accord and simply came upon the girls by chance , MOST cases of abduction homicides of children are exactly that, wherein the victims are merely victims of opportunity.

2) He observed the girls from some vantage point at some time and decided to follow them, this could be simply walking by, living near the area.

3) He knew they would be there, or knew they were there

If we look at scenario 1), in which the offender was there on his own , and came across the girls by chance you have to ask what he was doing there?, in most cases, of child abduction murder, the offender lives/works nearby, is in the area for what is a "Legit reason" he may traverse that area , but he usually lives and or works in the area .

They usually comes upon his (I Use the male indication here because the overwhelming majority are) victims by chance. the only thing that makes someone his chosen victim, is that they are alone.

Physical attributes with these type offenses usually contribute little to the victim selection process.

In terms of risk it was extremely high risk for the offender to accost 2 victims without knowing who may have been in the around unless he knew he'd be able to control more than one, that indicates not only that the offender had some level of comfort in the area, but he had some way to institute control over more than 1 person (Weapon , or possibly a sign of authority such as badge) .

This is where the victimology assessment is invaluable , were the girls such that fear by simply a show of aggression by an adult male would cause them to go with a stranger,were they the overly trusting type(s) who would beleive a ruse to get them to follow someone they didnt know? (this is equally important), what about someone they mightve known? would they go with a local they perhaps knew (or knew of)somewhat ?

If so that changes things around a lot.

If not then we have to assume he had a weapon and or some manner restrainting device on him which changes the profile of the type of individual involved yet again

Its been my feeling that simce this occurred that the individual had a weapon, though I cant say for sure, but to control 2 adolescent girls in an area where they may scream and attract attention he either forced them to walk under threat of violence, they went willingly with him because he knew them or perhaps he identified himself as a position of authority.

But to murder 2 girls when one may run during , lends me to beleive he either restrained them, or he incapacitated one to assault another then killed her too .

The shortest route between where its estimates they were last seen and where they are found seems to indicate about .5 milesm, and at some point they possibly walked through water. Or through dry ares in the creek bed.

Again "hey guys follow me down the hill" or "go down the hill" could have different meanings

Investigative considerations : Was there any similar crimes in that area? anyone suspicious in the area? any reports of anyone being followed ?

Did he lure them there then spring it on them once they were where he felt he could ?, or did he walk up to them and force them someplace he felt safe under threat?

Another possibility is false ID,

Producing a weapon or form of ID (Law enforcement) or both is another possibility.

The issue there is you have to get 2 scared girls half a mile away , and runs the chance of one or both of the victims at some point screaming for help, and theres a chance they did, but thats a HUGE risk for the offender.

Its by no means out of the range of possibility and is about 50/50 in this case, that is what he did, fear is a powerful motivator.

However "you guys wanna see something cool?" or "Police officer I need you guys to come with me " Its also possible.

The motive for this type of case is usually overwhelmingly sexual, the manner of death could shed a little more light onit better, but speaking in terms of statistics, its usually a landslide .

The offenders in these type of cases, are usually around 27-35 years of age at the time of offense , time incarcerated can alter that however. The individual is usually unemployed, or underemployed at the time of offense , though in most abduction murders of kids, triggering factors play a minimal , almost non existent role, the abduction and murder of 2 girls in a public place, albeit wooded and secluded, lends me to beleive there was some precipitating stress, beforehand.

These individuals are usually well known oddballs in the community they are loners, with few friends, sometimes labelled as "Social Marginals" .

They will have a history of failed relationships, often some established criminal history, and have often already been investigated by police.

They may interject themselves into the investigation by some means, and will often follow (usually to an obvious level ) the crime in the media

(investigative consideration: Sudden intense and unusual intertest in a case, in which their time during cannot be acounted for, and odd ever changing behavior following , changes in appearence, weight , appetite, general anxiety, sudden illness, increased use of intoxicants, sleep issues, destroying hiding items of clothes, altering or getting rid of a vehicle interior or exterior)

In many cases, they are suspected to some extent by people around them, but its never brought out for some reason or another.

One thing Im failrly certain of is that the murder scene and the recovery site are likely the same . Indicating a great level of comfort in that area where they were recovered. They recovery sites are usually the most familiar to the offender.

Because double murderers don't usually just pop up (thankfully) this individual almost CERTAINLY has a criminal past of some sort, which as some point in his life most likely involves sexual crimes and young females.

Theres often several unexpected moves to new residences, throughout his life, in most cases, 1 within 12 months prior to the offense.

Most of them work in blue collar Labor type industries, most often construction type jobs. they usually Live with parents or to a lesser extent a a significant other.

Whether or not the victims were bound would be another extremely important factor for 2 reasons
1) It indicated planning and forethought
2) Binding of child sexual murder victims is often a trait seen in repeat offenders (IE Serial killers)

If they were id venture to think it was something like handcuffs that he could hide on his person, but this also means the offender is a different type of offender than the guy who just happens upon the victims making his daily rounds.

I will refrain from speaking on manner of death as LE is keeping it under wraps, and there are to many possibilites that would lead us to pure speculation

Once hes commited the offense he needs to get out of the area, unseen , the maps shown show few residences in the area so its possble he had a vehicle nearby, or he knew a way out where he wouldnt be seen which indicatesd further 2 things,

1) familiarity with the area
2) Lives, close.

As I said earlier thers a thirs possibility of how he came into contact with the 2 girls , He either knew they would be there, or knew they were there.

How?

Did the girls disclose to anyone they were going that day?, we cant know for sure, but one thing we do know is that Libby did post a photo showing her friend with literally not a soul in sight behind her in instagram. For a sexually deviant offender who lives nearby who perhaps follows her account that may've been like ringing the dinner bell . todays investigators have to scrutinize things such as media accounts because as we know all to well lives have been lost because of it.

In the picture where we see Abby standing on the bridge, we dont see anyone else approaching (that I can tell) , ther eare dark shapes but none appear to be human.

Then within perhaps 30 min the offender appears and walks up to them and theyre gone to their fate.

Another thing , I wouldnt make much of his gait the way he walks is hindered by the fact hes steping on the railroad ties. But SOMEONE knows someone who looks like him and cant account for his time that day, even if he can.

Its a long shot, but it cant be ruled out given what info we have from the media .

Hope this opens up a few new possibilities for those following

thanks

Thank you for taking the time to do some research, and provide your thoughts. I hope you'll stick around on Abby and Libby's thread. Your expertise will be invaluable when an arrest is made.

The victimology assessment is one of the most important aspects in solving a murder case. I'm glad you addressed it in your post. If only we knew the answers to some of the points you made.....

I think your profile of the perpetrator was especially intriguing. Some of the characteristics you mentioned (numerous unexpected moves), were not something I had really given a lot of thought to. If you believe the perpetrator is local, and felt comfortable in the spot where the murder took place, do you believe he had several unexpected moves within the general Delphi area? Maybe a family split (divorce?) within his family, and he was forced to go back and forth? Perhaps one of the parents moved frequently and he never felt he had a stable place to call home?

One final question, if I may? ;)
What are your thoughts on LE releasing two POI sketches that differ greatly in age and looks? Does your experience lead you to believe there is only one offender (and one sketch was completely wrong), or there is a possibility there are two offenders? TIA for addressing my questions (if you are able). Your expertise is greatly appreciated!
 
IIRC we have at least one verified LE member who believes this case and the Iowa murders of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook were by the same serial killer.

Personally I believe there is a strong possibility they are by the same killer. moo
 
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