Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[St. Anthony2017]

(Sorry for answering for the other poster).

I was thinking about teenage groups who view "mutilation". They are more common than you'd think and VERY concerning given their age and the fact that their brains has not fully developed. When I asked myself, for how long the killing "club" or the "community" might exist, I thought of two extreme forms of control, homicide and suicide... should have formed at the same time for the two, just logically, because, human behavior. So, one can have a guess. Definitely with AOL I think, so, beginning of 2000es?

There might be different ways to find them out. Give the job to someone logical. But I am thinking, that if, just if, BG belongs to one of such groups, he does not need to be too smart nor needs to have special knowledge. He might get all necessary ideas from the club, including helping with the planning. I am thinking about it more and more.

Has he killed before? I don't know, but the planning shows some knowledge. Either, a genius, or, got some advises. Probably. I bet, some animals, and not in a nice way.

Has he killed after? SKs escalate in their behavior, because, as I suspect, there is a strong OCD component in it. But a collector's behavior, while being similar to OCD, in fact, a form of OCD, is different - people can wait for a very long time to find what they want, while constantly searching. So, one thing, he really got burned with the photo, video and recording, another one, he might be in the process of looking.

Think of this. Collectors have private clubs, Facebooks, IGs, any media. But something "cheaper", or just "parts" of their collection, they might post online for everyone to see. What do you think SK could post openly without being afraid of getting caught? I have two ideas. Places. And tools.

Think of this cretin, this moron, who found a group to kill for him in AK. None of the participants was a genius, and yet, a girl was killed. And he looked like a nice guy!

This is very interesting! I think he could post photos of his collection of mannequins, dolls, cameras, clocks, weapons or things which could be used creatively as weapons.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

(Sorry for answering for the other poster).

I was thinking about teenage groups who view "mutilation". They are more common than you'd think and VERY concerning given their age and the fact that their brains has not fully developed. When I asked myself, for how long the killing "club" or the "community" might exist, I thought of two extreme forms of control, homicide and suicide... should have formed at the same time for the two, just logically, because, human behavior. So, one can have a guess. Definitely with AOL I think, so, beginning of 2000es?

There might be different ways to find them out. Give the job to someone logical. But I am thinking, that if, just if, BG belongs to one of such groups, he does not need to be too smart nor needs to have special knowledge. He might get all necessary ideas from the club, including helping with the planning. I am thinking about it more and more.

Has he killed before? I don't know, but the planning shows some knowledge. Either, a genius, or, got some advises. Probably. I bet, some animals, and not in a nice way.

Has he killed after? SKs escalate in their behavior, because, as I suspect, there is a strong OCD component in it. But a collector's behavior, while being similar to OCD, in fact, a form of OCD, is different - people can wait for a very long time to find what they want, while constantly searching. So, one thing, he really got burned with the photo, video and recording, another one, he might be in the process of looking.

Think of this. Collectors have private clubs, Facebooks, IGs, any media. But something "cheaper", or just "parts" of their collection, they might post online for everyone to see. What do you think SK could post openly without being afraid of getting caught? I have two ideas. Places. And tools.

Think of this cretin, this moron, who found a group to kill for him in AK. None of the participants was a genius, and yet, a girl was killed. And he looked like a nice guy!

This is very interesting! I think he could post photos of his collection of mannequins, dolls, cameras, clocks, weapons or things which could be used creatively as weapons.

 

[pearl]

I thought that was an error that was corrected later, building abandoned, not vehicle. Vehicle seen but long gone by the time bodies found, right?
BTW, was it ever confirmed to be a car? I think I’ve heard car or even sedan but not so sure LE ever used those terms. Any chance it was a motorcycle?

This is what I remember from reading on WS from MSM articles. I do not watch nor listen to podcasts because I do not have time to do so. The first I remember about any vehicle mentioned was a lady reported an empty vehicle parked beside a nearby roadway not at the no-longer-in-use building. I do not recall reading anything else about this vehicle. The next time I remember a vehicle is from the 2019 Easter time press conference when LE asked for info on the driver of a vehicle parked at the abandoned building that has since been demolished. The last paragraph of the article posted upthread mentions a vehicle abandoned beside a road. I really have no idea about these vehicles.

 

[rosesfromangels]

amateur opinion and speculation

The building is vacant & has been for several years -- maybe the word was applied to the building & someone overgeneralized to the vehicle?

I'm still leaning toward a service van -- cable TV, phone company, we 'see' those vehicles so often that we often don't process the information thoroughly, IMHO.

JMHO YMMV LRR

Or perhaps something easier to conceal and more nimble, like a motorcycle or dirt bike...

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[cryssyx3]

popping in with another random thought. what if they were killed 2 different ways. for example if he grabs girl A and kills her with a weapon of some sort and then strangles girl B.

 

[Falling Down]

I thought that was an error that was corrected later, building abandoned, not vehicle. Vehicle seen but long gone by the time bodies found, right?
BTW, was it ever confirmed to be a car? I think I’ve heard car or even sedan but not so sure LE ever used those terms. Any chance it was a motorcycle?

It's that simple, really. Flubbed/poor word choice.

LE are asking for the driver of the vehicle seen parked by the abandoned CPS building to contact them, is how I interpret their words.

Some media reports were not corrected after the clarification.

The building was abandoned in 2007 or thereabouts.

The highway went through in 2014, for reference.

JMO

 

[Wells]

Refreshing:
Police release all-new sketch, video and audio of Delphi double murder suspect

The last paragraph I don't remember to have known.

I do not recall seeing wording phrased in that specific way before. I'm going to email them in the morning to request clarification and/or a correction if necessary.

 

[sunshineray]

I get what you are saying but I guess I'm having trouble getting past the idea that signatures specifically could be faked/staged. M.O. staged, definitely yes. Clues left behind, also yes.

Let's take Gary Ridgway, who you brought up. I read about him and it seems that he did a few things at crime scenes which I would consider his own signatures. In a number of cases, he posed his victims sexually. In others, he engaged in necrophilia. But in still other instances, he staged the crime scene by introducing chewed gum and cigarettes from other people, litter, and pamphlets from a traveling salesman. From what I read, he did not use these objects in a ritualistic way (though I could be wrong, please correct me if you know something different). He left them around the body to obfuscate the crime scene, to confuse police, and to implicate others. So while he was staging, I wouldn't really consider these items " fake signatures." If he was doing something very specific to the body with, say, the cigarettes, that's another story. But none of these things changed the overall story of the crime scene, which was that a sexually based murder had occurred.

I guess all of this is to say, the idea put forward by some posters here that in the Delphi case you may have a criminal who is staging signatures, I find somewhat outlandish IMO.

The idea that BG staged "odd" things to confuse investigators I could possibly see, as in the Gary Ridgway example. I'd just be careful to distinguish this from signatures.

But really not so outlandish if say the killer is a fan of crime. All one would have to do is study and then apply. That might be his "thing". Anything can be faked. How well it's done is quite a different topic.

 

[Kell1]

If @Kell1 happens to pop back in, I think their response to your question is x1000+ more valuable than mine.

However, that’s never stopped me from conjuring up an amateur opinion, so here’s another! I can only speak to my own experience.

A few years ago, I came up with an amateur speculation on a pertinent point in a case. People dismissed me, but I felt a sort of panicky feeling and knew I was right.

I enlisted some folks who were local to the situation to do some foot work for me. I was almost frantic at this point. They couldn’t prove out my speculation. Fast forward to a few weeks later. My speculation was spooky accurate. So never ignore that demanding feeling because you don’t want to look like a crackpot.

We have incredible deductive reasoning skills that sometimes defy conventional thinking. If it’s compelling you, driving you bonkers, send it in. Just have some rational explanations, no woo-woo stuff.

amateur opinion and speculation

That's a good question actually, should you submit a tip every time you see someone who looks like the suspect in either sketch?

The problem there is that the second sketch is so vague it could be anyone, the first is more detailed, and the second looks nothing like the first, so its confusing

If you don't live near Delphi or even somewhat near Delphi its a one in million shot, but id say Yes, submit it , you never know what it might turn up

Its up to LE there to determine whether to pursue them or not , I'm sure you're not the first to do so

 

[sunshineray]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

 

[Ozoner]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

Where is that information coming from?

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

My best guess as to why there are two sketches so seemingly different, is that there were likely witnesses who saw two separate “lurkers” that day who stood out as being odd, looking furtive, or just acting suspicious in general. As such, LE wants to track them down, and question them regarding their activities at the bridge that day. For all we know, they could have been seen carrying a rope, suspiciously disheveled, or even with visible blood on their clothing. *Speculation* only!

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Charlot123]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

When the BG sketch was discussed in earlier times, some mentioned seeing earbuds in his ears, some, that he was self-dialoguing, some wondered if there was something sticking out of his mouth. (It is all seen on the video, not on the photo, very vaguely, and the validity of any observation about the video is questionable).
However: one wonders if there indeed were two participants in the murders, with different roles, one being somewhat of a scout, maybe, and if they were in communication. This could explain two BG, looking different, and seen at different times by different people. Strange story.

 

[Maplesyrup]

I was wondering if any of you think that the Delphi killer has killed again in the last 3+ years? I kinda think he has not(although a couple of my POIs have). I would think we’d know about it if it had happened either from LE or indirectly from the news media. With “signatures” present at the Delphi crime scene, and lots of unusual elements apparently present, I feel certain LE would recognize another murder as committed by BG.
So if he hasn’t killed again, why do you think he hasn’t? Is that an indication he is in fact local and the girls were targeted? Or could it point to an experienced serial killer who knows when to lay low? I know they do sometimes take breaks but it seems to me that most serial killers just keep on killing. Just wondering everybodies’ thoughts.

I personally have wondered if he has NOT killed again, why not? Don't get me wrong...I pray he never does but if he is a SK, I can't imagine he would likely wait that long. I have considered that the girls were targeted. One reason that stands out to me would be to silence them because of something they knew or had recently become aware of. Could they have become aware that BG was molesting a friend? Had a friend confided in them? Was BG in position of authority over them [or even a position of authority over a large group of kids] and he made a move on one of them in the days before their murders and they thwarted him by rebuffing his advances? Did they tell him no... and get away from him? Was he threatening to hurt their parents if the girl spoke up and outed him? Kids don't understand what adults do. They believe the person will kill their family if the victim speaks up. I keep going back to Doug Carter at the press conference when he commented about what would people think of him [BG] when they found out who he was [not Doug's exact words but the basic theme of what he said]. That comment made me think they had a suspect in mind but nothing definitive that they could pin on him. I thought that was an odd comment to make considering some killers are truly on the fringe of society and people are not shocked that they would do such a thing because they act dangerous, look dangerous, look seedy, etc. His comment made me think that BG is a guy who is respected, perhaps well educated, perhaps in a position of authority in the community...someone that would shock people senseless once his identity is revealed. Just my thoughts and all IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

This is very interesting! I think he could post photos of his collection of mannequins, dolls, cameras, clocks, weapons or things which could be used creatively as weapons.

He could even post the photos of the bridge, and the area, from different angles. But most likely, he’d post the tools, as this is something no one could convict for, or something later found at the crime scene, but maybe in some non-specific version.

 

[TheVisual]

popping in with another random thought. what if they were killed 2 different ways. for example if he grabs girl A and kills her with a weapon of some sort and then strangles girl B.

Yes, one death might indicate anger at one(killing someone he hates in his family, mother, daughter) the other he's sorry he had to kill because she would tell on him, so was killed in a less painful way.

 

[Justice101]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

You are very good. I learned a great deal from your analysis. Thanks!

 

[SeattleStew]

Bringing this forward...

“Maybe in the future no one else will be murdered in my backyard,” Logan told Carroll Superior Judge Kurtis Fouts, apparently to the surprise of his own attorney, when asked if he wished to speak up for himself.

Delphi property owner gets nearly four years in jail for traffic charges

"What an interesting thing to say to a Judge."

stattlich1, Nov 24, 2019

 

[Marzipan]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

This has been said before, but perhaps the NBG sketch is of someone who is either a son to or a person who can put pressure on real BG to confess. Sort of like, "If you don't confess, do you want this kid to have to take the fall for you?" Or, "If the person you know did it doesn't confess or you don't turn him in, do you want us to put the pressure on you?"
We had a drunk driver leave the scene of a death where I live years ago. She never would have come forward as the driver after it was discovered that the car belonged to the family except that the rumors were that it was her step-daughter. That step-daughter got really sick of it and made her confess or else she would have turned her in.

 

[Trailerparkgirl]

I'd like to ask what others think. I've been reading and thinking about BG's photographic images and the witnesses who contributed to the OBG and NBG sketches.

Two witnesses (maybe more?) produced the originally released OBG sketch, one young girl and a man from the "arguing couple". The girl described to LE the photographically captured BG before LE released his picture publicly. The man after seeing that picture called in to say that's who he saw. Both saw BG down the Freedom Bridge way.

The NBG sketch was a witness who saw a younger man walking near their home...and in an area not near the Freedom Bridge.

Consider the young girl's description was the same as in the photo before it released to the pubic, BG's location when she saw him and then two years later the conflicting LE words on whether to regard or disregard OBG sketch. Now think about LE releasing NBG sketch that looks (and description was officially changed...ie height, weight and age) nothing like OBG sketch and NBG is seen by a witness in a totally different area.

It could be said these things could point to there being two people involved in these killings. The difference of the local he was seen at and then also of the physicality of the subject seen are so different, as the sketches reflect, to be the same person. They're overwhelmingly unlike eachother yet LE was unwilling to let the OBG go in favor of the NBG. Why? Because he was described before any photo was released? LE tried to disregard OBG, right after the April 2019 press conference, but then brought him back into the killer image mix later on.

What's everyone think? Maybe some LE really do think there are two killers but some don't? Is this maybe what the new strategy is about?

I used to think LE had identified OBG right before Christmas 2018, sent his DNA to Quantico to be tested and found out in January 2019 the man who very much favors the OBG sketch does not have the killer's DNA. Then LE changed direction that April on the witness's sketches. Now I wonder if all that is totally wrong and there are two killers to catch?

hey everyone...i haven't posted here in so long but am reading everything!
i love ur ideas sunshineray...and here's what i think about this...remember when an LE said something about there being a 'twist'? what exactly is the twist and what do they know? i think MOO the twist is two people. in the beginning and for a long time i thought for sure one guy, because that is all we see in the video....but just because we cant see more of the video i shouldn't assume its just one guy. this case is driving me nuts :/