Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[sunshineray]

Good to look back sometimes. A good man, God help him and all the investigators. Anyone who knows who committed these murders, tell what you know before someone else loses a lived one.

"And he had a message for the suspect:

"If you're watching, we'll find you."

He called on the public to be strong and recognize the importance of speaking out.

"Who's next?" he asked. "I hate to ask you that question. I'd give my life to not have to. But I know you've asked yourself that very question."

He asked the public not to get tired.

"We must keep our resolve for Libby and Abby. For this community. And frankly to ensure that good trumps evil -- and it will."

"We will stay committed -- with resolve very rarely exhibited with human behavior -- until this conclusion," he said. "Please be patient. Become our partners and communicate with us as often as you can."

He also said he had one last message for the deceased victims of the crime.

"And now from a very humble servant, that's the most blessed guy on this planet to represent the profession I represent, to Libby and Abby: It's my hope and my prayer that you're now experiencing God's promise of eternal peace."
FOX 59: Authorities searching property owner's home in connection with murders of Delphi teens

 

[Boxer]

With all due respect to Det. Holman, the end result is two dead girls. I"ll be happy to say how wrong our speculations were when he *arrests* someone. I'd prefer he focus less on our speculations and more on bringing in the Perp.

Sorry, that sounded crabby. I support the thin blue line, but I think many of them take us amateur sleuths too lightly. Sure, we come up with some wacko ideas now and again, but there is thread after thread of where folks on this forum materially contributed to resolutions.

O.K., my crabby rant is over. Back to positivity. : )

Amateur opinion and speculation

That not all that's left of the girls case is in a filebox collecting dust is because of SM. SM is people, thousands of people focusing on justice and the girls, not letting them drift away. That's OK, find the killer.

 

[rosesfromangels]

In an HLN video after the April 2019 press conference a panel of experts discussed the case. Looking at it now, it is interesting. At the end they were each asked what they thought would happen. At the time, each of them said they thought an arrest would follow within the next few weeks. Only one of them cautioned that if an arrest did not follow in the next few weeks, then the press conference was probably just a Hail Mary pass and they have nothing.

Wow - I didn't remember that. They should perhaps keep those thoughts to themselves. Truly appreciate (revere) our Blue, but it appears they could use some additional assistance it would seem.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[StarryStarryNight]

That’s not quite what he said. He was specifically criticizing Youtube re-enactments, some of which apparently were made using actors. Sorry, I don’t have a link at hand but the quote has been discussed here many times in the past. He did criticize SM for side-by-sides which then resulted in unproductive tips

Would’ve LE followed every single online theory or youtube video to know absolutely nobody got it right, a sort of guessing game? (A loud buzzer and red X comes to mind). I think that’s not likely given speculative scenarios have encompassed virtually every vague possibility known to mankind.

Those statements were made, if I remember correctly, about the same time LE was trying to instruct the public on what a good tip would be. I thought that very strange. LE gives out NO information but begs for tips from the public they are keeping in the dark and then complains that the tips aren’t good enough. Perhaps the tips weren’t very good because they are based on imagination and speculation because the public has no real information. They add to those thoughts by saying all the SM discussions and YT videos are wrong. Well, shouldn’t they want to correct that. How in the world does it help solve this case to have the public thinking wrong about anything in this case?

 

[sunshineray]

In an HLN video after the April 2019 press conference a panel of experts discussed the case. Looking at it now, it is interesting. At the end they were each asked what they thought would happen. At the time, each of them said they thought an arrest would follow within the next few weeks. Only one of them cautioned that if an arrest did not follow in the next few weeks, then the press conference was probably just a Hail Mary pass and they have nothing.

After reading from lots of different avenues in the last few weeks, I'm starting to think that maybe the one good and possibly connecting tip could have come in fairly quickly but it was from a person of questionable character. What do you do if you're LE and the only person willing to speak up has a sorted past, ie lifestyle and arrests, and incarcerations?

So with the information LE got right after the April 2019 PC, maybe they couldn't make a move on whomever was being tipped. It's possible the fear ISP Carter and Sheriff Leazenby's possible threats mentioned are because the man is too well connected to act on a lone and not so suitable informant?

How would LE handle a situation like that, not enough DNA to positively finger a suspect when the informant is a miscreant? Maybe they tried a sting operation and had no luck. I don't know, I'm just posing a senario, just wondering.

 

[sunshineray]

Just a question, how many think the killer really was at that April 2019 PC?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Remember when Det. Holman said the crime did not happen like any of us online sleuthers think? Does anyone have that clip?

That’s not quite what he said. He was specifically criticizing Youtube re-enactments, some of which apparently were made using actors. Sorry, I don’t have a link at hand but the quote has been discussed here many times in the past. He did criticize SM for side-by-sides which then resulted in unproductive tips

Would’ve LE followed every single online theory or youtube video to know absolutely nobody got it right, a sort of guessing game? (A loud buzzer and red X comes to mind). I think that’s not likely given speculative scenarios have encompassed virtually every vague possibility known to mankind.

I believe this may be the article where he says this.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Honestly, this is kind of a relief for me to be reminded of.

The idea of this a$$h*le getting off on seeing the entire thing reenacted accurately makes me feel even more hatred towards him.

JMO

 

[Dnp2be]

I have never tried to do multiple quoting or snipping or bolding, etc. before so I apologize in advance if I totally fudge this up. I will learn lol.

Well, I have a new appreciation for wigs. My mother, prior to her Alzheimer's diagnosis, was buying random things from infomercials. One thing she started buying was wigs.

Respectively SBM.
Just wanted to say I never realize how common this must be...my brother in law just came to the terms with the magnitude of his grandmothers shopping addiction when cleaning her house out after she passed on. I’ve never seen a house equivalent to the ones on the tv show hoarders IRL. I know OT, but your comment reminded me of her

In the same interview that the Sheriff mentions about knowing BG's voice he also said when asked about why he said there was no danger to the public, he "...had a feeling then and still does now that this incident was isolated to the victims..." and there was "...no ongoing threat to public".

Kind of sounds like what you're saying doesn't it. How the chief LE officer in the county can say that is a mystery to me. I get not wanting to have panic in the community and so on BUT telling that community they need not worry about the remaining women folk being in danger after two young girls were brutally murdered and that killer is at large!?

RSBM. I do remember hearing this from the chief but forgot the reaction it elicited until I read your comment. I agree with you 100% and wish we had the answers. IMOO, I believe this plays a larger role in determining the direction of LE’s investigation than some realize. I cannot comment on whether this is a good or bad thing for this particular case until it is solved. However, I could see it as a definite hinderance if the Chief is mistaken about the identify of the voice. My hope however tho is that he is not mistaken, he did eventually place who the voice belonged to and although not enough proof currently, he sent a message during his press release that he knows who this killer is and he will be caught (my hope ).

I have always believed that one of the girls was targeted and that there was prior contact via SM; likely one of those d*mn apps that wipes out it's own breadcrumbs.

RSBM
thank you, you are likely more correct than where my thoughts were going with the connection and targeting. I must have been really overthinking this one but I never considered the SM/online thing somehow. I caught myself confusing the era . Of course when I was growing up most of the people I knew didn’t have SM and when we did it was dial up, so I’d given up waiting being bored before I’d even get connected and entered a chat room lol.

My first thought on the targeted connection was school. I still believe this is likely the case however SM is just as likely a possibility as well. I’m glad you posted that. My second thought on the targeted connection is a little more complicated but I’ll just say it just because. I have a nagging suspicion that this was a revenge crime against a very close relative to one of the girls. I do not know any of them personally and I’m not implying anything about their characters. This is/has been just one of those pit of the stomach nagging feelings, the kind you can’t seem to shake. You just never know what kind of person you might be crossing without even knowing it. Scary

 

[rosesfromangels]

I believe this may be the article where he says this.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Honestly, this is kind of a relief for me to be reminded of.

The idea of this a$$h*le getting off on seeing the entire thing reenacted accurately makes me feel even more hatred towards him.

JMO

Yes, we’ll he can relish in his memories as he is walked to his lethal injection.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Dnp2be]

Great post. I do wonder if he had been in the woods overnight the previous night watching the house to be sure there was no activity. If they have timers set to control the lights... he may have monitored the lights going on and the lights going off. Maybe there were no timers on lights in the house and it remained dark all through the evening and all night. Remember in February it gets dark pretty early and it would stand to reason that if someone was home, there would be lights on for them to see while indoors. He would know there was no human activity outside and may have been brave enough to peep in windows if afforded the opportunity at night under cover of darkness. Once he knew the house was empty, he was safe to proceed.

this could be true however I do believe many who have not lived a life of crime or law breaking would believe that a crime is well thought out as to ensure not getting caught. While I’m sure this does happen, I can also ensure you that many times it does not. You may be surprised at how sporadic the acts are. It might seem like sheer luck sometimes. But maybe the general perception regarding the percentage/odds of being seen and then reported and then identified are much lower than one would assume. I’m of the opinion that many criminals are not thinking about the future. They are thinking about an immediate need or gratification and react accordingly. If they are seen or get caught, they deal with it at that point.

MOO

edited to add: just wanted to also say that my perception is more from what is considered petty crime. I may be way off when it comes to serious crimes such as this one. Unfortunately, we don’t know yet why or how he pulled this horrendous crime off. I hope we find out soon and he is never able to hurt anyone again.

 

[Dnp2be]

Except for one thing, and it's a big thing...

The house along the creek. He had to have known nobody was home, and in fact may have known the occupant is not there that time of year

JMO

RSBM and RBBMA
Can someone who knows the area please clarify how close the house is to the crime seen and how visible it would have been to someone inside the home or outside their home? Is this close enough to be fairly detailed or would it be visible but harder to make out? Thank you in advance.

edited to say nvmnd. Reading further I see this had been answered and discussed. Sorry about that, get over excited too soon before reading on

 

[Dnp2be]

I believe it is likely this killer had a general target in mind. IOW, he was looking for a certain victim at a specific time and place. And not necessarily targeting Abigail and Liberty specifically. For all I know he did go to the trails that day - or even previous trips - hunting for a victim. His primary target may have been a lone woman, on the bridge and with no one else around. If he were hunting - and I believe he was - he probably had walked over the entire area an hour or two before Abigail and Liberty showed up. He had a rough idea of how many were on the trails and who was where, in a general sense. For example, he probably knew there was no one under the bridge prior to seeing the girls and checked it again as he walked across. If he was searching for lone adult female, preferably petite, he might have realized the two girls were going to be his best opportunity.

As I stated earlier, I watched both seasons of "Mindhunter". One of the comments by the Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, is that he went out hunting almost every night looking for his victims. And this was in NYC where he would see more situations in one night than this killer would see on the trails in numerous trips. And yet, out of all nightly attempts, he had 8 attacks. He had a specific victim and set of circumstances in mind and if they weren't met he simply kept going. I wonder if this killer had not been to the trails in the weeks or months prior to the killings.

If this guy has killed before and/or since, what are the chances Abigail and Liberty are his youngest victims. If all of his other victims were single females, the situation may have dictated that he alter his methods. If he has killed since, maybe he decided multiple victims are not ideal and his others are late teen or adult women by themselves. What if his victim(s) were runaways classed as missing and no one has a clue as to their fate? What if his other victim went to another set of trails and walked or biked there without telling anyone where they were going? (As a teenager I had a set of wooded trails I would hike and many times I took off on them without telling anyone. To this day, if my parents were alive they would have no idea how many times I did that, with a pellet gun, .22 or no gun at all.) Such a person might be another victim and no one is aware of what happened or even that they went out on trails.

In other words if we or even LE are trying to make a connection to another crime it might not be readily apparent in any LE database. If he is a serial killer, Abigail and Liberty might be a one off crime for him. His other victims exhibit an entirely different type of victim and set of circumstances.

Thank you, this was very insightful.

 

[Yemelyan]

this could be true however I do believe many who have not lived a life of crime or law breaking would believe that a crime is well thought out as to ensure not getting caught. While I’m sure this does happen, I can also ensure you that many times it does not. You may be surprised at how sporadic the acts are. It might seem like sheer luck sometimes. But maybe the general perception regarding the percentage/odds of being seen and then reported and then identified are much lower than one would assume. I’m of the opinion that many criminals are not thinking about the future. They are thinking about an immediate need or gratification and react accordingly. If they are seen or get caught, they deal with it at that point.

MOO

edited to add: just wanted to also say that my perception is more from what is considered petty crime. I may be way off when it comes to serious crimes such as this one. Unfortunately, we don’t know yet why or how he pulled this horrendous crime off. I hope we find out soon and he is never able to hurt anyone again.

You are correct, many times crimes are not well thought out or even if they are...significant mistakes are made even in "successful" crimes. Criminals, even of major crimes like sexual offenses and murder, see scenarios in the course of their normal, every day routines and activities that present them with opportunities to act on their immediate urges. This is one of the reasons geographic profiling often works. And it leaves them open to making mistakes when they make spur of the moment decisions to act.

Even offenders who we think of as highly organized planners make unintended mistakes during the commission of their crimes. It's in my mind because I read the book American Predator recently, which profiled Israel Keyes. He planned his crimes meticulously, no one could argue that, and yet if you read about his kidnapping and murder of the victim who he abducted from a coffee kiosk, she even got away from him in the middle of a busy street. He tackled her to the ground in front of everyone but no one stopped to do anything. He put her in his truck right next to a police officer in a cruiser and he got away with it.

I'm of the opinion that BG didn't know who was in the houses nearby or who might observe him. He hoped to move quickly enough, I think, that witnesses would not be an issue. Just dumb luck that it worked for him on this particular day. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe this may be the article where he says this.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Honestly, this is kind of a relief for me to be reminded of.

The idea of this a$$h*le getting off on seeing the entire thing reenacted accurately makes me feel even more hatred towards him.

JMO

Yeah I agree and I can understand why LE wants to discourage such things as it serves no useful purpose..... just the opposite - it sensationalizes the murders of two young teens. As it is I believe the killer is receiving far more attention than he deserves.

Whether or not anybody got it right is not really the point either IMO. What I get from Holeman’s words is don’t waste time on the peripheral performers who claim to be authorities on this case.

Recently Leazenby said much the same thing -

“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded...”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

 

[Yemelyan]

Yeah I agree and I can understand why LE wants to discourage such things as it serves no useful purpose..... just the opposite - it sensationalizes the murders of two young teens. As it is I believe the killer is receiving far more attention than he deserves.

Whether or not anybody got it right is not really the point either IMO. What I get from Holeman’s words is don’t waste time on the peripheral performers who claim to be authorities on this case.

Recently Leazenby said much the same thing -

“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded...”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

Couldn't agree more. LE in this case is sending a signal to the public that if you have information they can use to solve the crime, you are already aware that you have it. You know the person by his mannerisms because you live near, work with, or are related to him....If this is you, you don't need any additional details from LE. You just need to act.

This case isn't going to be solved by YouTube re-enactors, people searching Facebook for profile pictures that match the sketches/video, or even posters here on this forum. Hard pill to swallow because we all wish we could help.

Actually we can help. We can keep sharing the information LE has put out and boost pressure on the persons who DO have information that is useful.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I believe this may be the article where he says this.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

Honestly, this is kind of a relief for me to be reminded of.

The idea of this a$$h*le getting off on seeing the entire thing reenacted accurately makes me feel even more hatred towards him.

JMO

Thank you for providing the actual comments of LE!

 

[somequestions]

Just a question, how many think the killer really was at that April 2019 PC?

If the killer really was at the April 2019 press conference, then he really had to rush to get there. According to the HLN reporters the press conference was called at the last minute and they had to rush to get to Delphi, IN. In addition, the press conference was on Monday April 22, 2019, right after the Easter holiday weekend. So it seems like they wanted as many locals there as possible.

I think now all of this was just a ruse to try and get the killer to attend the press conference and make the general public think they were on to something.

Today I think the investigators in this case just sit around and go over tips they may have put to the side early on. Maybe a new tip comes in that looks interesting so they check that out. The investigation has gotten rather quiet.

So no, I do not think the killer was at the April 2019 press conference. I do not even think he was in the state of Indiana.

 

[crhedBngr]

In an HLN video after the April 2019 press conference a panel of experts discussed the case. Looking at it now, it is interesting. At the end they were each asked what they thought would happen. At the time, each of them said they thought an arrest would follow within the next few weeks. Only one of them cautioned that if an arrest did not follow in the next few weeks, then the press conference was probably just a Hail Mary pass and they have nothing.

Wow. That is one angry look on Carter's face!!

JMVHO.

 

[K.jill]

The April press conference was set for a Monday if I remember correctly. I suppose if they suspect a BG was say a hairdresser and has Mondays off he would be able to attend.
Or if they suspected he was a student with no Monday classes.

<modsnip>

 

[Falling Down]

RSBM and RBBMA
Can someone who knows the area please clarify how close the house is to the crime seen and how visible it would have been to someone inside the home or outside their home? Is this close enough to be fairly detailed or would it be visible but harder to make out? Thank you in advance.

edited to say nvmnd. Reading further I see this had been answered and discussed. Sorry about that, get over excited too soon before reading on

Google Earth shows the distance from the house to the CS is around 600 feet.