Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #11

[peanutJelly]

Well technically the crime (if any) was committed in Portugal, so as I understand it, he would normally be extradited to stand trial there.

I am not sure what procedures exist for efficiency. e.g. as a german citizen, in jail in germany, can a trial take place in germany?

It did for the rape

 

[mrjitty]

It did for the rape

I can't easily find the answer on this, so I am assuming it might depend on which jurisdiction brings the indictment, and which is best placed to hold the trial.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I can't easily find the answer on this, so I am assuming it might depend on which jurisdiction brings the indictment, and which is best placed to hold the trial.

It depends on european and international penalty laws. You can charge german people in germany for crimes, done in foreign countries, as long as the deeds are a crime there and the foreign country doesn't appeal for an extradition.

It is even manifested in german penalty law, and so it is likely in every country of the EU.

Strafgesetzbuch (StGB)
§ 7 Geltung für Auslandstaten in anderen Fällen
(1) Das deutsche Strafrecht gilt für Taten, die im Ausland gegen einen Deutschen begangen werden, wenn die Tat am Tatort mit Strafe bedroht ist oder der Tatort keiner Strafgewalt unterliegt.
(2) Für andere Taten, die im Ausland begangen werden, gilt das deutsche Strafrecht, wenn die Tat am Tatort mit Strafe bedroht ist oder der Tatort keiner Strafgewalt unterliegt und wenn der Täter
1.
zur Zeit der Tat Deutscher war oder es nach der Tat geworden ist oder
2.
zur Zeit der Tat Ausländer war, im Inland betroffen und, obwohl das Auslieferungsgesetz seine Auslieferung nach der Art der Tat zuließe, nicht ausgeliefert wird, weil ein Auslieferungsersuchen innerhalb angemessener Frist nicht gestellt oder abgelehnt wird oder die Auslieferung nicht ausführbar ist.

 

[Tim N]

What on Earth? ... Also, that’s new; “In our case, the evidence is complete.” But they don’t have a body. They do claim to know cause of death. Could they actually then mean, “We know for a fact he didn’t put her in a well, so *advertiser censored** knows what they’re up to.”

thats what i was saying..that whatever comes out as public info is strategically released. its used to flush out others or to observe behaviour from suspects when the news comes out.
there are some dumb *advertiser censored* investigators but we need to give credit..the majority are very sharp and they have the assistance of all kinds of surveillance and information sources.
if those involved think that wells are being searched, they may be tempted to visit the actual place to check or move evidence..

 

[Tim N]

Now, german press is recurring on the P.J. investigations too.

According to HCW german L.E. does not know, what the reason for searching the wells could be, but infos are frequently shared between BKA, P.J. and SY, at the right time.

For the german investigators, the search for clues has been finished. But investigations are going on and in a few months, they will see if there is enough evidence to charge C.B., or not.

Maddie McCann: Ermittler überrascht! DIESE Nachricht aus Portugal ist der Grund - derwesten.de

'finished evidence gathering' means they know what happened and cant expect any further evidence. IMO. otherwise why stop looking?..

 

[SuperdadV8]

'finished evidence gathering' means they know what happened and cant expect any further evidence. IMO. otherwise why stop looking?..

Yes!

But in the way, prosecuters do not think, they could gather more evidence in this case so far. Now they check all evidence and will decide, if it's strong enough to charge someone.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I have been wondering this for a while now... whilst interesting and helping to pass the time while we wait to hear what the concrete evidence is, I’ve been wondering if trying to work out where the van was in the pics is at all relevant to anything in this case? We don’t know that any of the pic locations are relevant at all. If anything they could have been taken to try to prove he was nowhere near the abduction site or where any other evidence is located. I do realise this will likely be an unpopular view on here, especially when so much time and debate is going into trying to work out where they were taken, but if we do find out more then it wouldn’t surprise me if the pics are not as relevant as we are researching on here.

It is not unpopular with me

 

[SuperdadV8]

IMO it isn't that bad, that P.J. seems to run their own and maybe new investigation.

There is still a possibility, german prosecuters may close this case without charging someone. That doesn't mean, someone won't be charged in Portugal and german investigations could support a trial in Portugal.

Everything is possible. I assume, P.J. confirmed looking for evidence in the wells. Did they told, evidence for MM? Maybe also in other cases.

 

[Newthoughts]

Call me old fashioned, but only PJ has jurisdiction to investigate crimes in Portugal and does not require any trust or cooperation from German law enforcement.

Doesn't section 72 of the UK sexual offences act allow prosecution of UK offenders who have committed crimes overseas? If yes then there is a precedent in an EU country for charging citizens for crimes committed abroad tho I can't speak for German law.

This is an odd one. The crime was committed in Portugal so in theory that is where it should logically be tried. But the victim, who deserves justice, was British and the alleged perpetrator is German.

If he is guilty I hope the trial goes ahead in the country with the easiest chance of guilty verdict and the harshest sentencing cos he should never get out.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Doesn't section 72 of the UK sexual offences act allow prosecution of UK offenders who have committed crimes overseas? If yes then there is a precedent in an EU country for charging citizens for crimes committed abroad tho I can't speak for German law.

This is an odd one. The crime was committed in Portugal so in theory that is where it should logically be tried. But the victim, who deserves justice, was British and the alleged perpetrator is German.

If he is guilty I hope the trial goes ahead in the country with the easiest chance of guilty verdict and the harshest sentencing cos he should never get out.

So i think too. Hopefully, the three countries work together in even that way. His actual conviction ends in spring 2021. The sentence in the rape-case may be put down by the EuGH at thursday, so the trial has to be reopened and he could (!) be free for a while after spring 2021.

If germany may close the case without results at that time, an appeal for extradition from the UK or Portugal would be kind of "funny". Also a way too keep him in custody for a while. They do know, how dangerous he is. But they also seem to need more time.

 

[mrjitty]

'finished evidence gathering' means they know what happened and cant expect any further evidence. IMO. otherwise why stop looking?..

See I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

He is saying he doesn't need a JIT at this time because the crime scene is long since closed down and there are no other opportunities for forensic evidence gathering.

Meanwhile they are clearly continuing to analyse evidence and new leads they have - which are coming directly to them from human sources.

He was speaking in the context of the JIT - which is the danger of google translate.

If for instance, they got a lead on where a body might be in Portugal, clearly they would then need assistance from PJ to help look for it.

 

[mrjitty]

Doesn't section 72 of the UK sexual offences act allow prosecution of UK offenders who have committed crimes overseas? If yes then there is a precedent in an EU country for charging citizens for crimes committed abroad tho I can't speak for German law.

This is an odd one. The crime was committed in Portugal so in theory that is where it should logically be tried. But the victim, who deserves justice, was British and the alleged perpetrator is German.

If he is guilty I hope the trial goes ahead in the country with the easiest chance of guilty verdict and the harshest sentencing cos he should never get out.

I mean that German law enforcement cannot conduct on the ground operations - like searches - without the OK and cooperation of the PJ

 

[Deleted member 268067]

Yes!

But in the way, prosecuters do not think, they could gather more evidence in this case so far. Now they check all evidence and will decide, if it's strong enough to charge someone.

But we know they don’t have forensic evidence so presumably “finished evidence” means no forensics because they know for a fact that none could exist (now...)

 

[mrjitty]

Yes!

But in the way, prosecuters do not think, they could gather more evidence in this case so far. Now they check all evidence and will decide, if it's strong enough to charge someone.

Realistically the only reason they will need a JIT is if a crime scene is discovered, or they get a lead on where it is.

Otherwise the opportunities for forensic evidence are long since "abgeschlossen"

 

[Chiatos]

In September 2018 CB was arrested in Milan. Interview by a Carabiniere who arrested him.

Reporter: When you received a request by German LE to arrest CB, what did you know about him?

Carabiniere: He was unknown to us. We received the request without explanation.
CB had presented himself at the German Consolate requesting a copy of his ID documents. In fact, CB had not communicated any info about himself to the Consolate, such as tel. nr., address in Milan etc. We were informed that he was a fugitive and convict for drug trafficking. So we worked together with the Germans and organised an appointment at the Consolate for CB to collect his documents. A judge in Germany had issued the arrest warrant.

Reporter: How did CB behave when he was arrested and when he was transported to the police station?

Carabiniere: At first he was surprised. Once at the station we explained why he was arrested. He reacted quite relieved after that explanation and asked permission to contact his lawyer in Germany. He looked as a homeless person, it looked as if he had slept outside for days, he was rundown. The only things he was carrying along were his small backpack with a bible in it, some personal stuff, he didn’t have any money, no documents, no mobile phone, so he was very anonymus.

Reporter: He was extradited very soon after ending CB’s traces in Italy. Do you know for how long CB had been residing in Italy and for what purpose he was here in Italy, in Milan?

Carabiniere: we have no idea, he left no traces. Perhaps, if he would have committed a crime, then he would have left a trace, we would be able to find something.

 

[mrjitty]

But we know they don’t have forensic evidence so presumably “finished evidence” means no forensics because they know for a fact that none could exist (now...)

Yes - there is no opportunity to secure more forensic evidence - rather they can analyse what is known

 

[mrjitty]

So i think too. Hopefully, the three countries work together in even that way. His actual conviction ends in spring 2021. The sentence in the rape-case may be put down by the EuGH at thursday, so the trial has to be reopened and he could (!) be free for a while after spring 2021.

If germany may close the case without results at that time, an appeal for extradition from the UK or Portugal would be kind of "funny". Also a way too keep him in custody for a while. They do know, how dangerous he is. But they also seem to need more time.

I still wonder if they fancy him for some local crimes in Germany, hence the apparent lack of coordination with PJ and Met

 

[SuperdadV8]

But we know they don’t have forensic evidence so presumably “finished evidence” means no forensics because they know for a fact that none could exist (now...)

Possible but also speculative, according the information that has been given to the public!

 

[Chiatos]

Was CB in prison in Sep. and Nov. 2017?
June/July CB in Portugal, arrested and extradited to Germany for a 15 month custody. (That turned out as 12 months custody instead)
Released in August 2018.

So CB could not have been sighted by an eyewitness in Milan in Sep. 2017 and could not have been Marilena Negri's killer in November 2017 in Milan.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I still wonder if they fancy him for some local crimes in Germany, hence the apparent lack of coordination with PJ and Met

Or maybe in Portugal. I understood the media last days in the way, P.J. links C.B. to another possible crime or missing person there. Maybe J.C. finally?